Should I bulk or cut first?

[The Asian Lover]

I walk around at 180 pounds.

When I fought as a boxer, I had to cut to make weight. With amateur fights, you have to be within 7 pounds of your weigh-in, so you can't cut 20 pounds of water weight like you see in mma.

At my lightest, I was 156 pounds, I was ripped and shredded. Imagine Bruce Lee with bigger shoulders. However I was much smaller than I am now.

Bulking=Size
Cutting=Definition

You can have one or the other. You can't have both naturally.

P.S.
At 6'4, 240lbs isn't that big.

P.S.S.
Yes, most personal trainers are full of sh*t. I preach what I do personally. I learned through trial and error.

 

[The Message Boy]

Asian Lover you are a personal trainer, well offer some tips on my situation, my thread is:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=165232

 

[blinkwatt101]

P.S.
At 6'4, 240lbs isn't that big.

Errr.....hold up.....

6 2" 230ish...

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/arnold-schwarzenegger.jpg

Show me a better physique then that.

Unless your physique is godly....at 240lbs your a fata55,regardless of height.

5 6" 180ish...

http://images.hugi.is/heilsa/89733.jpg

Quality over quantity.

 

[The Asian Lover]

the message boy: when you change that statement to a question and add a PLEASE, I will.

blink: The 2 examples you used are men that are KNOWN TO HAVE USED LARGE AMOUNTS OF STEROIDS.

Again. Listen carefully. For natural weight lifters, you must bulk first, that means you will gain some fat. When you cut, you will lose muscle, your goal is to limit the amount of muscle lost.

At 7'6, 240 is tiny. Yao Ming is 320 pounds and he is still on the slim side. Height makes a big difference in weight distribution. Sigh...

 

[The Message Boy]

Again. Listen carefully. For natural weight lifters, you must bulk first, that means you will gain some fat. When you cut, you will lose muscle, your goal is to limit the amount of muscle lost.

Asian this sounds like a direct CUT AND PASTE out of a Muscle Fitness Magazine.

The 2 examples you used are men that are KNOWN TO HAVE USED LARGE AMOUNTS OF STEROIDS.

Is THIS your answer for everything? If a guy looks muscular and toned he's using steroids?

Lol, that's okay about commenting on my thread. This is why I don't take most personal trainers seriously. Most of them seem to have some sort of "theory" on how YOU individually are going to reach your goals, YET, MOST of them from a physique standpoint you couldn't even tell if they even worked out or not. To top it off, MOST of their advice sounds like a rehash of some stupid weight-loss tip from a magazine.

 

[Throttle]

these guys will argue til they're blue in the face. all their over-generalizations make me want to puke.

you can bulk first, cut first, or lift & eat cleanly. pick one. apply yourself to it. if you're not satisfied with the results after two months of diligence, try a different approach. read Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" (available at most public libraries) and ignore anything that disagrees with it. not because Rippetoe is right about everything, but because he has made more guys happy with how they look than anyone else I know of, no gimmicks, no bull, no hard-sell and no come-ons.

you can listen to these guys natter on about which you have to do first, or you can start changing yourself. lift, eat, sleep, take a day off, do it again.

 

[blinkwatt101]

blink: The 2 examples you used are men that are KNOWN TO HAVE USED LARGE AMOUNTS OF STEROIDS.

Besides the fact that steroids users from the 60s and 70s used MUCH less mg then now,yes they did use steroids.

So wait,IF Arnold used steroids and was 230ish at a low bodyfat,what makes you think anyone else that has a quality physique in the gym should weight near 240?(especially naturally as you say)

The closest I've ever seen anyone that I know that was sub 4% bodyfat was a close friends relative....6 4" 220ish at 3%.....he was on HgH,Tren and EQ. His physique was PHENOMENAL. But still not 240lbs. Point being if you touch anywhere near 240lbs,you more then likely have a buttload of fat on your frame.

 

[The Asian Lover]

the message boy: which magazine did I take it from? name the exact magazine. I say what I say based on hard earned experience and training hundreds of clients. I helped guys get size, women lose bodyfat, boxers become better fighters, athletes get better times on triathlons. you should learn some common courtesy. people don't like to be ordered around. I learned my please and thank yous at a young age.

throttle: I learned from experience not theory. many of the big guys I lifted with, especially from my college days did the same thing. (Natural lifters) Bulk up, cut, bulk, cut, until you reach your desired physique.
"lift, eat, sleep, take a day off, do it again." It's not that simple, if it was, every guy would be huge.

blinkwatt: "The closest I've ever seen anyone that I know that was sub 4% bodyfat was a close friends relative....6 4" 220ish at 3%.....he was on HgH,Tren and EQ." You just proved my point, natural lifters have to make a tradeoff between size and definition.

 

[Throttle]

it IS that simple. to quote G.K. Chesterton (speaking of another sort of living altogether): this "ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." Most guys don't have the patience to add muscle slowly, so they waste time, energy & money adding muscle and fat then carefully carving off the fat. Both methods require discipline & dedication, and I've known plenty of guys who were successful with both. But patient "clean-bulking" is cheaper and quicker.

You cite your experience and that of those around you, and so do I.

 

[The Asian Lover]

it IS that simple. to quote G.K. Chesterton (speaking of another sort of living altogether): this "ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." Most guys don't have the patience to add muscle slowly, so they waste time, energy & money adding muscle and fat then carefully carving off the fat. Both methods require discipline & dedication, and I've known plenty of guys who were successful with both. But patient "clean-bulking" is cheaper and quicker.

You cite your experience and that of those around you, and so do I.

Thank you for your educated response.

Clean bulking is a better way I agree. I remember back when I had stick arms and a potbelly, I wanted to get size ASAP. If I added some fat in the process, I didn't mind.

I've picked up some bad habits from that and have a hard time cutting unless I have a specific purpose, ie. boxing fights, BJJ tournaments

 

[The Message Boy]

Asian Lover says,

which magazine did I take it from? name the exact magazine. I say what I say based on hard earned experience and training hundreds of clients. I helped guys get size, women lose bodyfat, boxers become better fighters, athletes get better times on triathlons. you should learn some common courtesy. people don't like to be ordered around. I learned my please and thank yous at a young age.

Asian I'm not trying to step on your shoes, I just don't agree with your theory that a guy can't CUT and BUILD MUSCLE at the same time. Your theory doesn't make sense.

If I'm eating properly, doing cardio properly, and lifting like NORMAL as if I was on a really serious bulking program (basically lifting normally), how is it that I'm NOT building muscle and cutting at the same time?

What your theory says is that I should lower cardio, eat more, while continuing to lift like I just indicated. What will happen is that I will get FAT and gain alot of FAT. Yes, I will gain SIZE, but most of it will be FAT. That doesn't make any damn sense Asian lol.

I mean, either you want to be muscular, toned, and cut or you want to be buff and fat, pick one lol. So what if you have muscles?? Following YOUR advice Asian they wouldn't show cause the FAT will be covering them. The bodyfat percentage would be very HIGH and your muscles wouldn't show that good, you will just be BUFF looking almost like a football player. That's fine, but why recommend that to someone if they COULD gain the SAME LEVEL of muscle WITHOUT piling on the FAT?? lol, do you see what I"m saying? Hell dude you are the personal trainer, another reason why I don't have a personal trainer because you guys' advice is worthless.

The funny thing is that you reply stating that you don't agree with me, but yet, you agree with me, look here:

Asian Lover says,

Clean bulking is a better way I agree. I remember back when I had stick arms and a potbelly, I wanted to get size ASAP. If I added some fat in the process, I didn't mind.

So you agree that Clean bulking (clean eating, good cardio, great lifting) is the best route BECAUSE you cut and bulk at the same time and it's more healthy. I just SAID that Asian lol!

And you said that you didn't mind if you added a little fat because you didn't like being skinny, I understand that. But to go to the gym and workout, or to get on a eating plan with the purpose of getting FAT, makes NO SENSE.

Oh and another thing,

Asian Lover says,

I helped guys get size, women lose bodyfat, boxers become better fighters, athletes get better times on triathlons.

Asian Lover says,

I graduated from Northern Illinois University and studied kinesiology. I've worked as a personal trainer for 7 years and have my own personal training business.

Who the hell cares IF the advice you are giving is screwed up? It's like a doctor with 20 Ph.Ds that can't perform a surgery properly, it's useless.

 

[The Asian Lover]

Clean bulking is not cutting and bulking at the same time.

With clean bulking you are gain muscle at a much slower rate than you would bulking. The tradeoff is that you are gaining less fat. Clean bulking is good for guys that already have some size.

YOU CANNOT LOSE FAT AND GAIN CONSIDERABLE MUSCLE AT THE SAME TIME!

Where did I say you should get fat? YOU ARE NOT LISTENING.

 

[blinkwatt101]

YOU CANNOT LOSE FAT AND GAIN CONSIDERABLE MUSCLE AT THE SAME TIME!

I'd beg to differ. Putting on 1 lb of pure muscle is a butt load. And yes it's obvious at low bodyfats. I've seen a few of my pals who've come and gone,eat like me,put in as much effort as me,and gain a lb or two of muscle in 2-5 months. Thing is most people aren't born to do this stuff everyday. It's not most people's style. The only difference between 'bulking' and 'clean bulking' is fat. End of story. You don't gain more muscle. Muscle is gained on your efforts(read not weight) in the gym and how you eat. Fat is gained in the kitchen. (read not due to inactivity)


Where did I say you should get fat?

That is what bulking is. Taking in calories to gain weight. There is Zero focus on making your entire diet of whole wheat,natural sugar, and meat from the earth.

 

[The Message Boy]

Lol, okay Asian now you are contradicting yourself and it's looking pathetic.

Asian Lover says,

Clean bulking is not cutting and bulking at the same time.

Okay, but then you say,

Asian Lover says,

With clean bulking you gain muscle at a much slower rate than you would bulking. The tradeoff is that you are gaining less fat.

So WHICH ONE IS IT?? Lol, first you say clean bulking is NOT cutting and bulking at the same time. THEN you say clean bulking IS cutting and bulking but you are just gaining muscle at a slower pace WHILE keeping a lower fat percentage.

I agree more with your second quote, only that you assume that just because you have SIZE that means you have more muscle. That is WRONG. Dead wrong. Are you SURE you are a personal trainer?? When you consume more calories you gain more WEIGHT, consuming more calories than you NEED TO does not BUILD MORE MUSCLE it adds more WEIGHT in the form of FAT. Your fat percentage goes up, yes you are BIGGER but you are FATTER.

Okay, for each his own, some guys want to be big and buffy with a high percentage of fat lol. I just don't think that's the optimal workout one should be doing if they actually want to SEE definition.

Asian not to be funny or anything, but for example in your videos on your website you don't look toned up nor defined. You look like you have a high bodyfat percentage. But again, to each his own, maybe that's just the workout and the body you are aiming for, I'm not knocking you.

Another thing you assume is that CLEAN BULKING puts on LESS muscle. I call you bluff.

When you are eating properly and continuing to exercise and lift weights like normal with the same level of intensity, trying to lift as heavy as possible, your muscle mass accumluation is the same.

YOU just have buffy looking guy confused with lean toned guy. You think buffy looking guy is most of the time stronger and lifts more than the lean toned guy, I hang with guys that are lean and around 170 that BENCH and SQUAT more than the 230 buffy looking guys.

It's not about WEIGHT, it's about muscle mass, and the fundamentals of building muscle mass DO NOT REQUIRE overconsumption of calories.

All I'm saying is, you are misguided about not being able to build great muscle mass and cut at the same time. Well then again, maybe I shouldn't say you are misguided because in the second quote above you actually ADMITTED what I've been saying without even recognizing it.

 

[EFFORT]

YOU CANNOT LOSE FAT AND GAIN CONSIDERABLE MUSCLE AT THE SAME TIME!

Read up on some Carb Cycling, Shelby Starnes uses this strategy a lot with clients. You mainly manipulate cardio and carb levels (different amounts for different days). As a personal trainer always be open to entertain new ideas, it'll help your business a lot.

 

[The Asian Lover]

Enough talk nerds. Post your before and after pics.

Here are mine.

http://gainmusclebody.com/about/

 

[blinkwatt101]

Enough talk nerds. Post your before and after pics.

Here are mine.

http://gainmusclebody.com/about/

I LOVE THIS IDEA! I've been asking for people to do this more often instead of just totting their horns on these forums. It'd be nice to know if the sources are credible.

I don't have any from when I first started but I was the typical skinny kid in school.

2 summers ago. I'd be lifting for a year and focusing on health.

http://tinypic.com/r/1z6cb5y/4

These are from Rehab and Wet Republic this summer.

http://tinypic.com/r/2uhuvk9/4
http://tinypic.com/r/ae1x1x/4 <---middle one