Sets/Reps for growth...

[Egoist]

Ok so I am curious..

i keep seeing Warboss Alex and a few others talking about very low numbers of sets when it comes to squats and such. For real, guys? 1-2 sets + high reps for some?

I don't know, I always believed in multiple sets with enough weight to barely lift 6-7 times. Don't powerlifters (aka growth monkeys) do like multiple sets with low reps and high weight?

I mean, ok, here is my usual - lets say 1x10-12 for warmup, 3x6-7 with max weight (i mean max for the number of sets/reps), then maybe a cooldown set with less weight if i feel like it?

No matter how much weight i put on, i just don't feel like one or two sets would be enough?

Am i misreading something here?

P.S. I am currently trying to restructure my workout around the Big 3 exclusively, and also can't imagine having a primarily squats day without at least 5-6 sets of squats.. same for deads and press?

 

[Egoist]

I agree low-reps and heavy weight is ideal for powerlifters...one will obtain strength gains but probably not obtain significant muscle mass...

What works best for me, i.e. adding mass, is 8-10 reps of 3-4 sets on freeweight movements...combined, of course, with a sound nutritional intake.

ok i think that falls into my method - 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps?

 

[reyalp]

The rule of thumb I've heard a number of times is 4-8 reps for strength, 8-12 for mass, 12+ for endurance.

The final story? Try something, if it doesn't work, change it. Keep changing it until it works for you.

 

[Warboss Alex]

first we must establish one thing.

strength gains are key to muscle growth, period. more weight on the bar is what's gonna get your muscles growing.

strength gains are most prevalent at lower rep ranges - hence why on the big bore compounds (squats, deadlifts, rows, benches) the optimum range imo is 5-6 reps - going lower rep means you can lift more weight, which is the true stimulus for your body to grow.

of course there's a safety factor to consider so you won't be hitting smaller muscle groups with such low reps - conversely you should tend to avoid high reps on the heavier exercises because form becomes an issue and sloppy form leads to injury.

what's more, your smaller muscle groups will be stimulated by the work of the larger ones (i.e. biceps stimulated by pullups or deadlifts) - thus they're already in a 'vulnerable' state. we don't want to cause an injury here by putting on maximum pressure on these already broken down muscles so we keep the reps higher and the weight lighter. of course, we want strength gains here as well, but we want to be gaining strength at a higher rep range (still progress but safer) - 20 rep squats are an exception here btw

now, you will see people doing 10+ reps or going to failure every set etc etc and growing - that's called sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, or, as I like to call it, 'fake growth' - it's not induced by strength gains but actual volume of work. this works for a while but you come to sticking points quickly in my experience since you won't be able to handle a large weight for high reps and thus your stimulus is reduced.

for the failure thing, my take is this: if you know you're not gonna get a rep, don't try for it (unless rest-pausing or similar), you might hurt yourself. if you're not sure whether you can get it or not, try it - if you miss the rep you miss the rep, big deal, but you might get it. in this sense I like training to 'failure' and beyond but I don't believe in straining against a weight that's not gonna budge - you have to use some common sense here.

I wrote far too much there - the things you should keep in mind are:
-Strength gains = muscle gains
-Best strength gains occur at lower rep ranges
-Big compounds have the biggest potential for growth

What does that mean to you? Keep your big compounds in the 1-6 rep range and your assistance/secondary moves higher. Example:

flat bench 2 x 6
shoulder press 1-2 x 10-12

Your big compound is at a rep range which allows for best strength gains, thus best potential for growth, while your assistance move is at a higher rep range (with a lighter weight) - your shoulders should already be fried from the bench so you won't be able to handle a large weight for them anyway; attempting so would be dangerous.

which sportsmen have the densest muscles? (not necessarily biggest but thickest - real muscle as to volume-induced puffiness ) powerlifters, and they train for strength and strength alone. yes they catch lots of flak for being fat and whatnot, but extra (body)weight is extra leverage and thus helps them to better strength gains and better growth - do a web search for Dave Gulledge, Ryan Kennely, or Scot Mendelson, they're all top-class powerlifters and have muscle mass which bodybuilders only dream of.

 

[Warboss Alex]

The rule of thumb I've heard a number of times is 4-8 reps for strength, 8-12 for mass, 12+ for endurance.

The final story? Try something, if it doesn't work, change it. Keep changing it until it works for you.

no hard and fast rules: you'll get people growing off 30 rep deadlifts and 3 rep bicep curls so yes, change something if it doesn't work BUT keep it mind that quality strength gains will lead to quality size gains.

No-one who can bench 500, squat 500 or deadlift 500 for reps will be small. (okay, 99% won't be)

 

[Warboss Alex]

P.S. I am currently trying to restructure my workout around the Big 3 exclusively, and also can't imagine having a primarily squats day without at least 5-6 sets of squats.. same for deads and press?

mate, 5-6 squats is dangerous. what kind of weight will you be pushing here? your max? (as you should be) - the inevitable fatigue will lead to poor form or worse.

Here is what I prescribed for Adone:

DAY 1: BACK/BICEPS
deadlifts 2 x 5-6 or 1 x 10
rows 2 x 8-10 (for lat width, either db or bb)
whichever bi exercise you like 1-2 x 8-15 (preferably 10+ reps here)
forearms 1 x 10-15

DAY 3: CHEST/TRICEPS/SHOULDERS
(two bench variations, one bb and one db, I'd start with incline db and decline bb) 2 x 6
skullcrushers 1-2 x 10-15
shoulder exercise of your choice (no laterals please) 1 x 10-12

DAY 5: LEGS/SHOULDERS
squats 1-2 x 4-6
squats 1 x 20+ (to failure, should be around the 20 rep mark - if you can make it to 50 go to 50 and up the weight next time!)
abs however you like

needs some additions but that's the core

 

[Egoist]

so day 2 is 2-3 sets total? thats it? 10 minute workout?

p.s. squats to failure is like when you fall with the barbell on top of you and break the cage, right?

 

[Warboss Alex]

day 2 is four exercises: two bench variations (you can make an assistance move with higher reps if you like), one tricep and one shoulder.

and yes, that's what squats to failure is, although if you can rack the weight it'd be better to do so.

 

[manuva]

so day 2 is 2-3 sets total? thats it? 10 minute workout?

Yep.

2 sets maximum is all thats required to stimulate muscle fibers. In fact, if you (after a proper warm up) did one set each of squat, deadlift and bench, going all-out for 8 to ten reps, you'd grow as well as if you did 5 sets of each.

If you're capable of doing more than 2 sets, IMO you're not lifting heavy enough.

PS My back workout takes about 25 minutes, and 10 minutes of that includes setting up the barbell for deadlifts.

 

[brucevangeorge]

bump.

 

[Charppy]

Wow...this is cool And here I thought you had to spend 1 and a half hours at the gym or something..This is really nice to know!

 

[newbie81]

Ok so I am curious..

i keep seeing Warboss Alex and a few others talking about very low numbers of sets when it comes to squats and such. For real, guys? 1-2 sets + high reps for some?

I don't know, I always believed in multiple sets with enough weight to barely lift 6-7 times. Don't powerlifters (aka growth monkeys) do like multiple sets with low reps and high weight?

I mean, ok, here is my usual - lets say 1x10-12 for warmup, 3x6-7 with max weight (i mean max for the number of sets/reps), then maybe a cooldown set with less weight if i feel like it?

No matter how much weight i put on, i just don't feel like one or two sets would be enough?

Am i misreading something here?

P.S. I am currently trying to restructure my workout around the Big 3 exclusively, and also can't imagine having a primarily squats day without at least 5-6 sets of squats.. same for deads and press?

These are some reasons for working with low reps ( <6 )
-You can handle more weight
-Your reps are faster (speed decreases with amount of reps)

It doesn't matter, if you want strength & Muscle mass, the key is:
-intensity (heavy weight)
-volume (alternating between heavy volume weeks & lower volume weeks)
-include rest weeks (with lower volume)


So yes handle heavy weight with low rep range. What do you prefer?

A. bench 3sets of 8 reps with 100lbs
B. bench 5sets of 5 reps with 140lbs

A you have total volume of 3x8x100 = 2400 , total reps: 24
B you have total volume of 5x5x140 = 3500 , total reps : 25

Obviously case B is better, you have same amount of reps, but higher weight, which leads to higher volume.

If you really want to get decent information, read t-nation online.

 

[Warboss Alex]

-It doesn't matter, if you want strength & Muscle mass, the key is:
-intensity (heavy weight)
-volume (alternating between heavy volume weeks & lower volume weeks)
-include rest weeks (with lower volume)

not everyone will do well on volume. many do however.

 

[Egoist]

P.S.

i did squats according to Warboss Alex, well close to it, 2 short and slightly lighter sets + 1 very long and heavy set, just about knocked me out. I went about 4 reps past my usual failure point, and lets just say I still walk funny 48 hours later.

I'm gonna try that with chest today.

 

[Egoist]

by they way, I am feeling way bloated today, kinda annoying.

I've been doing great with muscle gains, but even though i try to eat lean, i think I've been gaining some fat weight as well. (stomach feels bigger than before, boo)

My diet is much much cleaner than most peoples though, and i don't think that I eat that many calories.

My staples are ON Protein shakes, turkey + chicken breast, roastbeef, enriched wheat/grain pasta, oatmeal, eggs, tuna, etc.... Shouldn't I be bulking leaner? damnit. Maybe I am just having my PMS

 

[semag]

yeah... i've done days with about 4 exercises, maybe 6 sets total, and I've had them take 45 mins to an hour.

a) I like to warm waaay up. I've got bad shoulders. I always start with the bar and start adding weight, whether i'm deadlifting 405 or benching 250.
b) If you're doing 2 sets of 5-6, they're gonna be so heavy that you gotta wait in between them, and you're not gonna wanna do that second set

 

[Warboss Alex]

I'm gonna try that with chest today.

NO. Do NOT do this.

Everyone sees 20 rep squats giving you huge legs etc, and yes, that's true, BUT IT WILL NOT WORK WITH OTHER BODYPARTS. THEY WILL OVERTRAIN.

Only the legs are strong enough to take such a pounding and recover, in some rare cases, if you train very low volume then yes, you can widowmaker your chest or something like but it's NOT NECESSARY and will most likely overtrain you.

(conversely, I believe your back can also take a 20 rep set - but 20 rep deadlifts aren't just hard, they're dangerous as well).

Just stick with 20 rep squats, everything will grow.

 

[newbie81]

not everyone will do well on volume. many do however.

What do you mean? please elaborate on this one please.

 

[Warboss Alex]

What do you mean? please elaborate on this one please.

the wave/alternating volume routine you described, it works for some but if you don't know your limits you can overtrain badly on the higher volume weeks. If you're experienced as I get the impression you are, and know it works, try it, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone off the bat just yet.

Nothing against the system, lots of people do well on volume.

 

[newbie81]

the wave/alternating volume routine you described, it works for some but if you don't know your limits you can overtrain badly on the higher volume weeks. If you're experienced as I get the impression you are, and know it works, try it, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone off the bat just yet.

Nothing against the system, lots of people do well on volume.

Basically, volume alternation leads to the best results. It's how the bulgarion, russians,... train & that's why they took all the olympic medals during years while americans had nothing (and they were all juicing yes).

Yes it is advanced, but I'm currently training my 14year old brother, and just rolled him over to this systems after 4weeks of training. The body easily adapts to volume. Yes you can overtrain, but don't use this word too soon.
A 3-4 week volume period followed by a rest week will remove overtrain risks.

The strength/Hypertrophy gains are so good & the system is so easy... no ones ever wanna train another way.

-peace.