Self Perception

[zekko]

There's one of those "rate your looks" threads on RSD right now. I don't post there but I do some lurking. I've noticed when they run these polls over on the general "Don Juan Discussion" board, usually most guys rate themselves an 8. But on RSD, 38% rated themselves 10. That's probably because that's what they teach over there: "We're all 10s". Tyler had an interesting comment in the thread. He said:

"I'd personally think anyone who doesn't rate themselves a 10 as a full loser. Why would you harbor thoughts about yourself like that? You view your mother as "The best mom on the planet" right? The same should go for how you feel about YOURSELF."

Now that's a pretty good point, but something still doesn't quite set right with me about everybody thinking they're a 10 in looks. I think it's a couple things:

1) I don't believe in 10s. I think the highest I've ever rated a girl was 9.2. I suppose I could believe I'm the exception, but I simply don't believe anyone is a 10.

2) Maybe the main problem I have with this is doesn't it set up unrealistic expectations? If you think all girls should respond to you as if you are a 10, and then that doesn't happen, doesn't that set you up for a fall?

3) Looks aren't everything. Why stop with looks? I will sometimes give myself the self talk when I go out: "I'm the most handsome man on the planet". That's fun, but really I know that realistically, I'm probably about a 7. But I have other good qualities. Nobody's perfect. If you're supposed to think you're a 10 in looks, why not think you're a 10 in all things?

Like "I am the most charitable man on the planet", "I am the greatest humanitarian who ever lived", "I have more money than anyone else in the world", "I am the most famous person on the planet", "I can perform brain surgery better than anyone". Where does it stop?

4) If you think you're perfect, where's the motivation to improve? If you can't see a flaw within yourself, if you can't identify a problem, how can you fix it?

5) I'm not sure you should equate how you rate your looks with your self esteem. A person is more than their looks. As a package, I'm think I'm a pretty good catch. That doesn't mean that I think my looks are the standard by which all others should be judged. What is your opinion on this?

Oh, here's the link to the thread:
http://www.rsdnation.com/node/215103/forum

 

[Night-hawk]

IMO, self esteem plays a role in how we perceive ourselves.

If a guy has low self-esteem he may think himself a 5 or 6 or 7

but when his self esteem is boosted he begins seeing himself in a better light and rates himself a 9 or in this case, a 10.

Perception of one's self is correlated to how one feels about themselves...

It's like being depressed to being happy...show a person a picture of themselves when depressed...and again when they are feeling great and you will get two different reactions.

At the same time when rating girls...you see her out a night in a nightclub and rate her a 9...the next day you see closer some flaws rate her an 8...but depending on how she glows as a person may chnage that rating again.

It's subjective stuff man. We see what we want to see.

 

[zekko]

If a guy has low self-esteem he may think himself a 5 or 6 or 7

but when his self esteem is boosted he begins seeing himself in a better light and rates himself a 9 or in this case, a 10.

So you think because I figure I'm a 7 in looks I have low self esteem?
I don't think I have low self esteem. I think I am quite a catch and any woman would be lucky to have me.

Why the emphasis on looks? I thought PUAs taught that looks don't matter? Tyler himself says "looks don't matter, at all, they really don't". If looks don't matter, why does he say that you are a loser if you don't think you're a 10? Think about it. It doesn't make sense.

Personally, I think looks matter, they just don't matter as much to women as they do to men. How could they? Men are more of a total package deal than women.

Besides, I don't see anything wrong with being a 7. A 7 is good looking. Most guys are probably 6s or 7s. To be an 8, I think you would have to be an exceptionally good looking guy. Just like women have to be exceptionally good looking to be an 8. They say most people overestimate their own looks. I bet most of the guys here rating themselves an 8 aren't really that good looking.

 

[lgbs2004]

Bealty is in the eyes of the beholder. While one woman will rate you a 7 in the looks scale another woman will rate you a 8 and so on. I have a friend who is probably the most ugly human being in the world but he's got a great personality, is honest, have high moral standards and he never had a problem picking up gorgeous women so for me he's a 10...he's got the whole package. And if you ask him whats his opinion about himself he would say: "I'm the most wonderful man in the world". So for me self perception is everything!

 

[Jonnybangbang]

We depend on our value within a human marketplace. Everything is reduced to "what am i worth?, "what is my value?", "what can i be exchanged for?" etc. We've become commodities. Yes, it's easy to numerically rate a human based on their looks, personality and so on but i just see this as machine-like behaviour... Moreover, a barrier to what is actually "Human."

 

[ilikecharlene]

Looks matter, it's PC bull**** to say they don't. I don't think they're everything though. I wouldn't date a 10 woman who had a ****ty personality. she could have the hottest body and the best boobs, but if she were *****y and air-headed, **** no.

Looks IMO are a primary part of the whole package.

 

[ilikecharlene]

Looks matter, it's PC bull**** to say they don't. I don't think they're everything though. I wouldn't date a 10 woman who had a ****ty personality. she could have the hottest body and the best boobs, but if she were *****y and air-headed, **** no.

Looks IMO are a primary part of the whole package.

 

[FairShake]

"I'd personally think anyone who doesn't rate themselves a 10 as a full loser. Why would you harbor thoughts about yourself like that? You view your mother as "The best mom on the planet" right? The same should go for how you feel about YOURSELF."

These guys sound like a weird jock cult.

The "best mom on the planet" is subjective and relies only on your opinion. Looks take other people's perspectives into account...especially since this is a forum about getting other people to fvck you.

 

[Mike32ct]

There's one of those "rate your looks" threads on RSD right now. I don't post there but I do some lurking. I've noticed when they run these polls over on the general "Don Juan Discussion" board, usually most guys rate themselves an 8. But on RSD, 38% rated themselves 10. That's probably because that's what they teach over there: "We're all 10s". Tyler had an interesting comment in the thread. He said:

"I'd personally think anyone who doesn't rate themselves a 10 as a full loser. Why would you harbor thoughts about yourself like that? You view your mother as "The best mom on the planet" right? The same should go for how you feel about YOURSELF."

Mysterry did the same thing on his tv show. He told the guys they need to believe they are 10s.

I think confidence is extemely important, but I don't believe in being delusional. Maybe pretend you're a POINT higher if you like. If you're a 7, maybe carry the confidence of an 8. That's not bad. But pretending you're a 10 will get you laughed at.

Now that's a pretty good point, but something still doesn't quite set right with me about everybody thinking they're a 10 in looks. I think it's a couple things:

1) I don't believe in 10s. I think the highest I've ever rated a girl was 9.2. I suppose I could believe I'm the exception, but I simply don't believe anyone is a 10.
Agreed. I'm not sure what a 10 would even look like. I've never seen one.

2) Maybe the main problem I have with this is doesn't it set up unrealistic expectations? If you think all girls should respond to you as if you are a 10, and then that doesn't happen, doesn't that set you up for a fall?

Hell yeah.

3) Looks aren't everything. Why stop with looks? I will sometimes give myself the self talk when I go out: "I'm the most handsome man on the planet". That's fun, but really I know that realistically, I'm probably about a 7. But I have other good qualities. Nobody's perfect. If you're supposed to think you're a 10 in looks, why not think you're a 10 in all things?

It's a slippery slope. The RSD guys also want you to believe you are the coolest guy in the world too. Wouldn't that make you tryhard?

Like "I am the most charitable man on the planet", "I am the greatest humanitarian who ever lived", "I have more money than anyone else in the world", "I am the most famous person on the planet", "I can perform brain surgery better than anyone". Where does it stop?

Exactly. Slippery slope.

4) If you think you're perfect, where's the motivation to improve? If you can't see a flaw within yourself, if you can't identify a problem, how can you fix it?

Correct.

5) I'm not sure you should equate how you rate your looks with your self esteem. A person is more than their looks. As a package, I'm think I'm a pretty good catch. That doesn't mean that I think my looks are the standard by which all others should be judged. What is your opinion on this?

I agree that a person is a package. But women do go by looks first. If you don't meet her minimum looks standard, it's hard to sell the rest of the package, unless she somehow finds out that you have money or status.

Oh, here's the link to the thread:
http://www.rsdnation.com/node/215103/forum

So I agree with 95% of what Zekko said. The only thing I respectfully disagree with is that women care less about looks than men. I think it's the other way around.

 

[zekko]

Mysterry did the same thing on his tv show. He told the guys they need to believe they are 10s

Well, Tyler comes from the same pickup lineage as Mystery, so it's no surprise they would have the same outlook.

I think confidence is extemely important, but I don't believe in being delusional. Maybe pretend you're a POINT higher if you like. If you're a 7, maybe carry the confidence of an 8.

I think I'm appropriately overconfident

Thing is, I've been around awhile. I've seen how women act when an 8 walks into the room, how they get all giggly and such and whisper about him. And I don't get that reaction. So if I walked around thinking I'm an 8, I'd be wondering why I don't get the "8" reaction. It would probably drive me crazy.

Backbreaker recently posted about his being an 8+, and how things would happen to him like cashiers putting their numbers on the back of receipts and such. That's the reaction I would expect as an 8. But I don't get that. I mean women who know me ask for my number. But a complete stranger giving me an unsolicited number based on my looks alone? It's been a looong time since anything like that has happened to me.

But I do get the 7 reaction. Just yesterday a girl I know told me I was "extremely handsome", which was nice, because I don't get that all the time. And the day before that I was paying bills and another customer walked by, smiled at me, and made a cute little face at me by scrunching up her nose. Which was nice. I think I'm good looking enough to get the job done. I'm as good looking as I need to be, in other words.

The only thing I respectfully disagree with is that women care less about looks than men. I think it's the other way around.

I don't think that's possible, because men have more attraction factors. So it's diluted. I think Rollo says there is looks, wealth, and game - have any two. I might add social status/fame to that list.

But with girls, it's looks, looks, and looks. They should have any two. We don't care about their wealth, game, or social status. Some girls have very good game, but it doesn't really do them any good unless they are good looking to begin with. And then it can be devestating to the unsuspecting fellow.

I do agree women probably have at least a baseline of attractiveness in mind before they will accept you further, though.

 

[Mike32ct]

Zekko, I think we are both correct on the looks thing, but it depends on the context.

I fully agree that women can be more forgiving than men on the looks thing if he has money or status/fame to compensate.

But in a mostly looks based situation like a one night stand from a bar/club/party, baring any mitigating factors above, the girl will generally be way more particular lookswise about who she Fs than most guys would.

Most guys will go home with any ok looking chick. The reverse isn't true.

So I won't necessarily say women care less about looks. In certain environments, they can even be tougher than men on looks. It's just that men can have other tools that can somewhat compensate for not so great looks.

So it depends on context.

 

[Maxtro]

Any one who believes he is a 10 when he really knows he's not is just delusional or in denial. Zekko made a great point, women will let you know when you are hot.

The problem is, what do you do when you know you aren't?

If my height wasn't taken into account, I'm probably a 6. I could be a 7.5 if I really worked on my body, had good hair and was wearing good clothes.

But because I'm white and only 5'6, I feel that I automatically lose two points. Meaning, I'm really just a 4. And that does a whole lot to explain why I've done so poorly with women.

Though I figure, if I got my body fit and all the above that I said before, I could make it to 6 territory. And with some level of confidence and game, I could be a 7. But all of that is going to require a hellish amount of work.

 

[zekko]

You're probably selling yourself short, Maxtro. Most guys fall under the "average looking" category. I know damn few guys that are 8's or above. I think most guys' failures with women are based in their social skills, or lack thereof. And weak inner game.

Though I figure, if I got my body fit and all the above that I said before, I could make it to 6 territory. And with some level of confidence and game, I could be a 7. But all of that is going to require a hellish amount of work.

Well, you either put in the work or shrivel up and die. You have to figure you are worth putting in the work for. If you're a bit on the short side, being in shape can be a big plus, especially if you put on muscle. At 5'6", you're not a lost cause. Weight lifting can be a pain in the @ss, but if you make it a routine, it can get to be addicting too.

Of course you want to maximize what you have, the right haircut, clothes, and such. But the main thing to remember is you will always be more successful with a good, positive attitude than a bad one. A bad attitude is never going to help you get anywhere.

 

[Maxtro]

I know most guys are average. But the problem is that average is a man who's 5'10. Because of that, I'm automatically below average.

A couple years ago I was semi-serious about working out. I lifted regularly but didn't put much thought into my diet. I did build muscle but it was hardly noticeable. I just don't have the genes to get big.

Now I'm just wondering how much affect really focusing on my appearance would really have. As for the attitude stuff, I'm talking about that in my thread.

 

[Slickster]

I believe in being honest with yourself. Lying to yourself about your looks comes from a position of insecurity and is weak.

I've always found that the most harmonious relationships are with women who are close to you in terms of looks. If you venture too high or too low you will be unhappy.

We are all dealt a hand in life. Deal with what you've got.

 

[Warrior74]

PUA Bro Science strikes again. Last night when I got back in town from my conference I ran into my friend who is literally a greek god. Women will stand in front of him and just drool. Anyway, I have never and will never get the sort of attention he does no matter how much I think I'm a 10. Reality is a mother****er for those who fail to see it. YOu can't take the red pill on women and the blue pill on yourself. When you know you have handicaps, you find work arounds. But trying to convince yourself your handicaps don't exist is delusional bro science.

 

[zekko]

I know most guys are average. But the problem is that average is a man who's 5'10. Because of that, I'm automatically below average.

I saw a guy just last week who was about 5'6". He was jacked, you could tell he worked out. Didn't look at all like a guy who had trouble with the ladies. I was going to post this last week but the forum was down.

A couple years ago I was semi-serious about working out. I lifted regularly but didn't put much thought into my diet. I did build muscle but it was hardly noticeable. I just don't have the genes to get big.

So you were having some success, but you gave up. It's a slow process. You build a little muscle, you keep going, you build a little more. Here's where your attitude can gave a big effect. If you have a bad attitude and think "I'm a loser and nothing's going to help me", it's going to be hard to find the motivation to improve. If you think "I'm going to apply myself and I'm going to see results" it's easier to keep at it.

I've always found that the most harmonious relationships are with women who are close to you in terms of looks. If you venture too high or too low you will be unhappy.

That's what the scientific studies show. It makes you wonder about all this PUA theory when most of the time who you end up with boils down mainly to looks anyway.

 

[backbreaker]

PUA Bro Science strikes again. Last night when I got back in town from my conference I ran into my friend who is literally a greek god. Women will stand in front of him and just drool. Anyway, I have never and will never get the sort of attention he does no matter how much I think I'm a 10. Reality is a mother****er for those who fail to see it. YOu can't take the red pill on women and the blue pill on yourself. When you know you have handicaps, you find work arounds. But trying to convince yourself your handicaps don't exist is delusional bro science.

I honestly think (know) I am a pretty handsome dude. But i'm not a model or anytyhing. It depends on a woman's taste on how she will rate me physically but I am not ugly or repulsive or antyhing. most women at least think I'm cute.


what i find interesting as i get older is the coping mechanisms that we develop to deal with the world in the terms we wish to deal with it on. I have my own; i have a chip on my sholder mentality, i chose to block certain things out, and accept certain things for what they are.

But I think I am handsome based on the reaction women have and have had my entire life based on me talking to them. I guess that's why I never really got all enthralled in the looks / game debate as I never really had to. I at least have enough looks to get my foot in the door with most women.

the older we get the more defined these coping mechanisms become.

we were in the mall the other day eating and i saw this kid, he couldn't have been 15 years old, just flirting with this girl behind the counter at the foot court. she was eating it up. and i got to thinking, yuo know 15 years from now, that kid is going to have it so engrained in his head that he can't approach women like that.

what happens from the time we are 15 to when we are 30 that we put the clamps on what we can and cannot do to the point that we do?

I mean, and I was a AFC MVP but even then... ta/lking to women? jst talking to them and getting numbers and ****? that was something you just did as a teenager. i had a phone full of phone numbers. rather i fvced or dated them or not was a different story but i mean, talking to women wasn't hard you just did it.

but you know the older you get and it's like the game or the rules of the game changes and now you can't do this or you cant do that or it's not accecptable to do this to the pointj where you are noww 30 years old and you see a chick that is cleary looking at you and you freeze up thinking about what to do next when 15 years ago you knew what to do.



What i have come to the conclusion is that this DJ ****, it's not so much about learning things, as much as it is about unlearning things if that makes sense. I knew how to be a DJ naturally. the more you interact with people the more you get rejected the more people tell you what you can or cannot do the more that people put social restrictions on you the more you put up your own boundaries in your mind.

I look at my 10 year old brother braylon and he's handsome just like his big brother, he actually looks like a spitting image of me 18 years ago and i see him wiht the kids and girls at his school when i am in town and he's just.. him. he's just being him and the little 10 year old girls eat it up. he chases the girls around the playground, then goes to shoot ball with the boys and the girls watch, he chils with his friends at the lunch table, are they talking about how to get the little 10 year old girls numbers or how to get the 10 year old girls to like them?? hell no they are talking about cool **** like who is better lebron or KD or what is the best playstation 3 game out right now. Braylon could give 2 ****s about what those girls thought about him but the few times i go to his school and eat lunch with him you could tell the girls liked him. I asked him one day about the girls there and how they were looking at him. his response "so? ". it's so classic and spot on i couldn't do anything but laugh.




so. so simple yet so true. so the fvck what. if only he can have that same mindset 20 years from now


I think this is the thing I did without thinking about it when i took my 3 year break from women. yes i started the business but more than that I just, wasn't
concerned about women.

the way i see dating is i see there are two worlds. there is a male and a female world. as a kid, men dont' know anything about the female world. the female world is to basically talk about what's going on in the male world. the more the male is in the male world, the sexier he becomes to females. the problem men have as they get older is they care too much about the female world. the more you can focus on your male world the more attractive you will be to the opposite sex.

 

[Warrior74]

I honestly think (know) I am a pretty handsome dude. But i'm not a model or anytyhing. It depends on a woman's taste on how she will rate me physically but I am not ugly or repulsive or antyhing. most women at least think I'm cute.


what i find interesting as i get older is the coping mechanisms that we develop to deal with the world in the terms we wish to deal with it on. I have my own; i have a chip on my sholder mentality, i chose to block certain things out, and accept certain things for what they are.

But I think I am handsome based on the reaction women have and have had my entire life based on me talking to them. I guess that's why I never really got all enthralled in the looks / game debate as I never really had to. I at least have enough looks to get my foot in the door with most women.

the older we get the more defined these coping mechanisms become.

what happens from the time we are 15 to when we are 30 that we put the clamps on what we can and cannot do to the point that we do?


but you know the older you get and it's like the game or the rules of the game changes and now you can't do this or you cant do that or it's not accecptable to do this to the pointj where you are noww 30 years old and you see a chick that is cleary looking at you and you freeze up thinking about what to do next when 15 years ago you knew what to do.



What i have come to the conclusion is that this DJ ****, it's not so much about learning things, as much as it is about unlearning things if that makes sense. I knew how to be a DJ naturally. the more you interact with people the more you get rejected the more people tell you what you can or cannot do the more that people put social restrictions on you the more you put up your own boundaries in your mind.

It's a difference between placing mental barriers on yourself and just knowing your place in the market and playing to your strengths.

I record and engineer a local weekly radio show, we recently had on a Miss USA contestant from our state. She came early to the studio and the host hadn't arrived yet, so I sat with her and warmed her up. Asked her all of the prep questions. Who are you, where are you from, how old are you, how did you get into this, blah blah blah. So I got a text from this chic, kinda pissed because I cancelled on her. I had to work. I tell miss congeniality about it and she starts in on men. She tells me how she just got her heart broke. Apparently the guy who has been chasing her decided to stop since she didn't want to be in a committed relationship. Plus, she said, he was too old for her. Mind you she's 20. The guy she's been "seeing" is 50. He has been "sponsoring" her career. She showed me a photo and he's not a handsome man but you can tell he's not broke. Her heart wasn't broken, her wallet was. I saw her Saturday at a mixer thrown by the radio show host and she was drooling all over this tall good looking local baseball player. We were talking about having him on the show and she comes over and asks me to introduce her. That's what happens when your a good looking guy. That's not what happens when you walk around thinking you're a 10 physically.

Now the 50 year old guy didn't have any mental barriers, but he did play to his strengths (money & young girl with a daddy complex). But the baseball player didn't have to do sh1t but not screw it up. This is what I see in the real world. If the old guy was all like " I can't approach a girl that young" he would have lost the game. (in my opinion playing the sugar daddy role is also losing the game), but he also thought enough of himself and knew enough of the game to know that she's about to be in bigger markets and he had his fun and it's time to let that fish go back to the sea.

 

[zekko]

What i have come to the conclusion is that this DJ ****, it's not so much about learning things, as much as it is about unlearning things if that makes sense. I knew how to be a DJ naturally.

Sounds a lot like Pook's post about the "Don Juan of the sandbox" or whatever it was. This was definitely not my experience. As I've said elsewhere, I was basically raised as an only child. So when I started school it was a huge, difficult adjustment for me being around all these kids. I was painfully shy and had to put in a lot of work to get over it.

I improved every year with taking to girls and with social skills. I could never look back at a time when I was better, or things were better for me, because I was getting better all the time. I never felt like I was trapped by social constraints or conventions.

I saw her Saturday at a mixer thrown by the radio show host and she was drooling all over this tall good looking local baseball player. We were talking about having him on the show and she comes over and asks me to introduce her. That's what happens when your a good looking guy. That's not what happens when you walk around thinking you're a 10 physically.

Great example. See, if Tyler really was the 10 he thinks he is in his head, he wouldn't need to work so hard to get such tight game. I still don't see how he can say looks don't matter, while insisting that you are a loser if you don't think you're a 10 in looks.