Seeing other women on the side

[AdamJ]

30 is a really interesting phase that gives you time to reflect.

I've realised many things about myself and dating over the past few years.

One important realisation is that I will never be the kind of guy who is 100% happy to be in a monogamous relationship. Men have a natural desire to screw around that women just don't share. I believe there is more to the argument that men should be allowed to sleep with other woman while in a relationship than just evolutionary psychology.

I've been reading a lot of Rollo's blog and my thoughts are that if you're a high value man and you agree to monogamy with a woman you are basically submitting to her optimal strategy at the expense of your own.

Women win by securing the highest value man they can possibly obtain. Men win by getting to a position where they can secure multiple high value attractive women. Monogamy might be all well and good when your wife is young and hot (and even then I think there are difficulties with the familiarity aspect) but do you honestly think you're still winning when you're both 55 and her body is sagging and may not even attract you anymore.

I was watching this film called Arbitrage about this rich hedge fund manager. He was screwing around with some French girl who was at least 20 years younger than his current wife. Having said this he still seems like a good father to his kids, looks after his wife and supports the family when he can. In spite of that his wife divorces him at the end when she finds out about his affair - she was vaguely aware of a few other affairs but this was the one that broke the camel's back.

Now I am beginning to think this is a little unfair. Pook once said a woman would rather share a high value man than be straddled with a faithful loser. I believe this to be true. All my gf's friends have been cheated on and they pretty much accept this as the new normal - that their boyfriends can still "love" them and sleep around.


I see that you either have two options as a man if you want any semblance of normality - like a stable gf, children, family, etc. Submit to the female optimal strategy of monogamy aware that she is with you because you are the highest value man she can secure at her current level of attractiveness, knowing that in ten years time the gap between your SMVs will be even further apart. Or two. Accept that your desire for young, hot women will never go away and keep a woman(s), goomah, mistress, concubine or whatever you want to call it on the side like the kings of old used to do. I genuinely believe that the number of powerful men who are loyal to their wives is negligible. And that's despite all of the feminist programming in our society.

Not only is monogamy unrealistic, but it is sub optimal for any man. If women would be more accepting of man's true nature it would be better for both parties. You could love your wife and your family, provide them in the best way you can and have your piece on the side, which IMO prevents the typical resentment and contempt which builds up in many marriages.

 

[zekko]

I've been reading a lot of Rollo's blog and my thoughts are that if you're a high value man and you agree to monogamy with a woman you are basically submitting to her optimal strategy at the expense of your own.

And yet, Rollo is married.

 

[AdamJ]

And yet, Rollo is married.

This in no way addresses the point of my post.

Rollo is married. That doesn't mean that in the time he's been married he has been faithful and even if he were that doesn't detract from the logical conclusion of his post.

If you - a high value man- choose to be wholly monogamous and faithful you are submitting to the feminine hypergamous optimal strategy at the expense of your own.

Meet my argument next time or don't reply at all.

Society's current version of a monogamous relationship, where men are vilified if they step out and have something on the side, is only good for women and beta men who would otherwise go without.

 

[The Duke]

Is it always smart to act on your desires just because you can? This reminds me of something a woman would do trying to justify her behavior.

If you can get that deal and be honest about it, more power to you. But only a damaged woman will accept something like this.

And just where are all of these 20something year old women paired with 50y/o men?

 

[Dante1a]

I've been away from the forums for quite awhile and have started really living the lifestyle that many in the seduction community purport to being real. In very direct honesty, I have been and am living that life now.

I have been directly dealing with this issue and can offer my thoughts, whatever they might be worth.

Having been married at 26 and divorced at 29 from a TERRIBLE marriage, I instantly went into studying relationships.

A few years back, I decided to look in polyamory as a lifestyle. In fact, I found it to really work for me on a variety of reasons.

One, I come at it from a place of internal and self development. You have to allow the woman to see other people as well. That goes a long way to making you work through any jealousy issues you have, which makes you stronger mentally and simultaneously makes you better in relationships.

Two, girls then realize that you are cool to hang with. You don't NEED anything from them, because you have plenty of other women. They can romantically be with you, but not own you - which women seem to love.

Three, women seem to see me as the safe guy to live out their fantasies with. I have jokingly referred to 2015 as "the year of the threesome", because so many girls I'm involved want to have a threesome with me.

It's not because I'm more attractive - it's because they sense a healthy lack of jealousy, neediness, or insecurity in me. I'm also a dominant personality, so that helps a lot in creating a masculine/feminine polarity.

Now, on the flip side: I have to talk about feelings ALL THE TIME. Seriously..ALL THE TIME. When you are dating 6-7 girls, especially in a polyamorous lifestyle where everyone knows about each other and is consenting, you need communication. That takes ALOT of time and energy.

Scheduling is a *****. It's also really easy to distract yourself going from one girl's place to another for sex when you could be working on building something valuable with your life. That balance is very important for me.

The other negative is having to work on tough internal issues, like knowing the girl you really like is probably off fu*king her other guy. But, I feel comforted as these moments usually happen while I'm getting sucked off by another girl.

I believe this is a viable alternative and I'm telling you my experiences in all out, "no internet bullsh*t" truth.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[Prime_Beef]

"Men have a natural desire to screw around that women just don't share."

Be careful with this one. Women are just as capable, willing and intent on it as you. Part of human evolution. You are very, very naive if this is the limit of your understanding.

 

[Lexington]

It goes back to the bargaining power of women in the West versus those elsewhere. If a man cheats on his wife here, he risks losing his children and paying a fortune in legal expenses, alimony and child support (which is really just stealth alimoney). Of course, this could also happen if she happens to cheat on him! In many societies, this is not the case. If a woman leaves her man, she is ostracized as a divorcee, won't necessarily gain custody of the children and she won't get most of the husband's wealth.

As a high value man in the West, the key would be to protect your assets. Get a solid prenup (make sure she has legal counsel too). Come up with a deal that will give her something but wouldn't financially ruin you. Make sure you protect some of your golden geese through overseas trusts or domestic asset protection trusts (DAPTs). You can name your children as beneficiaries at certain ages.

Of course, you'll need to run hard dread game. Just getting a prenup will have her thinking about how lucky she has it. Never say it explicitly, but constantly make her aware of how fortunate she is to have you. If you are in good shape and wealthy, women will be hitting on you and her friends will be jealous of her. When you are courting her, make her earn your genorisity....do not lavish her with your wealth immediately (a lot of successful guys do this to win favor). This way, she won't take your success for granted.

Basically, the key is making the option of walking away less attractive for your wife. This is the way it is many countries by default. Divorce is a not a good deal for most women. In the US, Canada, UK etc., divorce is a fantastic deal. Making divorce a less appealing proposition means a lot more women will be willing to turn a blind eye to occasional infidelity.

Of course, one more key is to not get caught. As a successful man, you should be able to find ways to travel for business. Never sh*t where you eat and keep everything discreet. Do not pursue side relationships with mistresses....your side pieces are for fvcking and chucking.

 

[Tictac]

If you - a high value man- choose to be wholly monogamous and faithful you are submitting to the feminine hypergamous optimal strategy at the expense of your own.
Society's current version of a monogamous relationship, where men are vilified if they step out and have something on the side, is only good for women and beta men who would otherwise go without.

_________

Your premise is horse pucky.

Maybe you are bent and twisted to the whims or conventions of 'society' (whatever that is).

That's your issue.

 

[AdamJ]

_________

Your premise is horse pucky.

Maybe you are bent and twisted to the whims or conventions of 'society' (whatever that is).

That's your issue.

Cut the moral outrage and actually explain what is supposedly wrong with my premise.

No one has poked holes in it so far.

 

[AdamJ]

It goes back to the bargaining power of women in the West versus those elsewhere. If a man cheats on his wife here, he risks losing his children and paying a fortune in legal expenses, alimony and child support (which is really just stealth alimoney). Of course, this could also happen if she happens to cheat on him! In many societies, this is not the case. If a woman leaves her man, she is ostracized as a divorcee, won't necessarily gain custody of the children and she won't get most of the husband's wealth.

As a high value man in the West, the key would be to protect your assets. Get a solid prenup (make sure she has legal counsel too). Come up with a deal that will give her something but wouldn't financially ruin you. Make sure you protect some of your golden geese through overseas trusts or domestic asset protection trusts (DAPTs). You can name your children as beneficiaries at certain ages.

Of course, you'll need to run hard dread game. Just getting a prenup will have her thinking about how lucky she has it. Never say it explicitly, but constantly make her aware of how fortunate she is to have you. If you are in good shape and wealthy, women will be hitting on you and her friends will be jealous of her. When you are courting her, make her earn your genorisity....do not lavish her with your wealth immediately (a lot of successful guys do this to win favor). This way, she won't take your success for granted.

Basically, the key is making the option of walking away less attractive for your wife. This is the way it is many countries by default. Divorce is a not a good deal for most women. In the US, Canada, UK etc., divorce is a fantastic deal. Making divorce a less appealing proposition means a lot more women will be willing to turn a blind eye to occasional infidelity.

Of course, one more key is to not get caught. As a successful man, you should be able to find ways to travel for business. Never sh*t where you eat and keep everything discreet. Do not pursue side relationships with mistresses....your side pieces are for fvcking and chucking.

Not to be rude bro, but only the last two sentences of your post actually touch on this thread topic.

The rest of your post isn't helpful since I don't intend to get married.

My post was pretty straightforward.

Many men will get bored in their relationship. There is a reason why infidelity is so high. Unless you are a complete beta you will probably reach that point in your relationship where you desire other women a lot more than your wife or long term girlfriend , especially as she ages.

This will grow to the point where either you live a life of near celibate misery where you aren't attracted to your wife anymore but are too "moral" to cheat. Or you cheat anyway. For anyone who wants a wife (or long term girlfriend) and a family those really are the only options.

 

[zekko]

Rollo is married. That doesn't mean that in the time he's been married he has been faithful and even if he were that doesn't detract from the logical conclusion of his post.

If you - a high value man- choose to be wholly monogamous and faithful you are submitting to the feminine hypergamous optimal strategy at the expense of your own.

Meet my argument next time or don't reply at all.

Relax, we're having a discussion here. I'm not even saying you are wrong, necessarily, although I am not convinced you are right either.

My point was that you are dropping Rollo's name and seem to be implying that he would endorse your viewpoint. And you are saying he may be a cheater. Rollo used to post here a lot, and I never saw any indication that he was unfaithful to his wife. He claimed to be happily married, and a Christian. It IS true that he heavily pushes the polyamory/spinning plates philosophy. I asked him once why his teachings seemed to be so incongruous with his life choices.

He said that his messages are specifically directed at beginner DJs, at young, inexperienced men, or late bloomers - or maybe like a 35 year old man who wakes up one day to find himself divorced and with no clue how to get back into the dating game. It's a different thing entirely to spin plates, experience women, meet one you find worthy, and make a go of it with her.
That seems understandable because worthy women are rare.

Now maybe I'm wrong, and he would agree with you. If that is the case, then I invite him to come here and proclaim:
1) That he cheats on his wife, or 2) He is a beta who has submitted to the feminine hypergamous optimal strategy at the expense of his own.


I also agree with Prime Beef that women cheat just as often as men do. Maybe their motivations are different (maybe they are seeking attention or validation more an orgasm), but the result is the same. It seems to me that if you are cheating on your wife, you lose all moral high ground in expecting her to be faithful to you. If you are saying that all men should cheat, then you are asking for all women to cheat, also, because that will be the most likely result. At least in this day and age.

Concubines worked in ancient times because women had no rights, power, or independence, they were little more than property. As Howiestern implies, I don't see why any respectable woman would put up with it.

 

[speed dawg]

Bottom line is, you are trading the benefits of random sex for the benefits of a long term (hopefully fulfilling) relationship. It's not as if there is a mountaintop or anything, or some type of goal, when it comes to women. When you are secure enough in yourself to make yourself happy, and you meet a compatible (physically and mentally/emotionally and in principle) woman who has done the same, you should be able to take life to a different level. You can make the other person happier, and in return get the same thing back.

Not only is monogamy unrealistic, but it is sub optimal for any man. If women would be more accepting of man's true nature it would be better for both parties. You could love your wife and your family, provide them in the best way you can and have your piece on the side, which IMO prevents the typical resentment and contempt which builds up in many marriages.

Explain how you are going to keep your 'mistress' on the side happy? This is real life, pal, this isn't Goodfellas. You're going to have to spend a considerable amount of money on her to pull that off, else she'll eventually bury you. That girl will eventually want a commitment, family, etc.

If you are gungho on this, prostitution might be your only option. Sure, you'll spend money here too, but you won't have that constant threat of a women attempting to cut your d*ck off. Or move to Asia, this sort of thing is accepted during the work week. Weekend is family time.

 

[Love<3]

30 is a really interesting phase that gives you time to reflect.

I've realised many things about myself and dating over the past few years.

One important realisation is that I will never be the kind of guy who is 100% happy to be in a monogamous relationship. Men have a natural desire to screw around that women just don't share. I believe there is more to the argument that men should be allowed to sleep with other woman while in a relationship than just evolutionary psychology.

I've been reading a lot of Rollo's blog and my thoughts are that if you're a high value man and you agree to monogamy with a woman you are basically submitting to her optimal strategy at the expense of your own.

Women win by securing the highest value man they can possibly obtain. Men win by getting to a position where they can secure multiple high value attractive women. Monogamy might be all well and good when your wife is young and hot (and even then I think there are difficulties with the familiarity aspect) but do you honestly think you're still winning when you're both 55 and her body is sagging and may not even attract you anymore.

I was watching this film called Arbitrage about this rich hedge fund manager. He was screwing around with some French girl who was at least 20 years younger than his current wife. Having said this he still seems like a good father to his kids, looks after his wife and supports the family when he can. In spite of that his wife divorces him at the end when she finds out about his affair - she was vaguely aware of a few other affairs but this was the one that broke the camel's back.

Now I am beginning to think this is a little unfair. Pook once said a woman would rather share a high value man than be straddled with a faithful loser. I believe this to be true. All my gf's friends have been cheated on and they pretty much accept this as the new normal - that their boyfriends can still "love" them and sleep around.


I see that you either have two options as a man if you want any semblance of normality - like a stable gf, children, family, etc. Submit to the female optimal strategy of monogamy aware that she is with you because you are the highest value man she can secure at her current level of attractiveness, knowing that in ten years time the gap between your SMVs will be even further apart. Or two. Accept that your desire for young, hot women will never go away and keep a woman(s), goomah, mistress, concubine or whatever you want to call it on the side like the kings of old used to do. I genuinely believe that the number of powerful men who are loyal to their wives is negligible. And that's despite all of the feminist programming in our society.

Not only is monogamy unrealistic, but it is sub optimal for any man. If women would be more accepting of man's true nature it would be better for both parties. You could love your wife and your family, provide them in the best way you can and have your piece on the side, which IMO prevents the typical resentment and contempt which builds up in many marriages.

OK, explain why it's ok when you cheat but it's a problem when your wife does it

 

[AdamJ]

Explain how you are going to keep your 'mistress' on the side happy? This is real life, pal, this isn't Goodfellas. You're going to have to spend a considerable amount of money on her to pull that off, else she'll eventually bury you. That girl will eventually want a commitment, family, etc.

If you are gungho on this, prostitution might be your only option. Sure, you'll spend money here too, but you won't have that constant threat of a women attempting to cut your d*ck off. Or move to Asia, this sort of thing is accepted during the work week. Weekend is family time.

You're right. I just came back from visiting a prostitute (before reading this post) and I am so glad I did it. It's like a weight has been lifted.

Now I can get back to my real relationship without the desire for variety eating away at me. In fact it makes me appreciate my gf even more as I see now that the desire for new pvssy and the half an hour of bumping uglies then jizzing isn't worth ending a relationship over. But after almost three years of being "faithful" to my gf I had to be reminded of that.

Explain why you are so needy that you need to be in a LTR to begin with. Why not just bang slvts forever if thats what you want? A LTR would just get in the way...right?

For someone who likes to point out other people's "non-sequitars" you sure missed the logic on this one.

I care about my gf and want to start a family but don't feel I could live without some kind of variety.

OK, explain why it's ok when you cheat but it's a problem when your wife does it

I just did in the very post you quoted. Read again.


EDIT: I also want to add that before this I was honestly considering dumping my gf just so I could get back in the game. So glad I didn't choose to. I know I will be judged by many here as scum of the earth but I really don't care. I've decided to stay with my gf, who I genuinely care for, and occasionally see prostitutes on the side. Only then can I satisfy the need for variety while safely ensuring I can keep a great relationship with the gf and maybe even start a family in the near future.

 

[Lexington]

Not to be rude bro, but only the last two sentences of your post actually touch on this thread topic.

The rest of your post isn't helpful since I don't intend to get married.

My post was pretty straightforward.

Many men will get bored in their relationship. There is a reason why infidelity is so high. Unless you are a complete beta you will probably reach that point in your relationship where you desire other women a lot more than your wife or long term girlfriend , especially as she ages.

This will grow to the point where either you live a life of near celibate misery where you aren't attracted to your wife anymore but are too "moral" to cheat. Or you cheat anyway. For anyone who wants a wife (or long term girlfriend) and a family those really are the only options.

If your post is that straightforward there really isn't much to discuss. If you're not a one woman man, either continue to spin plates or get into an LTR and cheat on your wife/gf. I was just providing some ideas on how to go about the latter.

 

[Zarky]

Interesting to see the butthurtness of monogamous guys in this thread. I've been multi-dating since 2003 and it's very natural for me. I don't think I could ever go back to monogamy.

I realize some guys are wired differently, for whatever reason. But looking back on all my days, I've realized that I was always into having lots of girls around me. Even when I was in grade school.

So, good for you OP. I think it's natural for (I guess some) men to be polygamous. You just have to realize that 99% of western society is built upon monogamy. Or at least professed monogamy with secret polygamy.

I do agree with those who say that having a foot in both worlds is the most difficult, though. I like polygamy, and the idea of a (monogamous) wife and kids is of no interest to me. Trying to do both at the same time will often get a man pilloried like Tiger Woods.

"Men have a natural desire to screw around that women just don't share."

Be careful with this one. Women are just as capable, willing and intent on it as you. Part of human evolution. You are very, very naive if this is the limit of your understanding.

I disagree with this. Just look at biology. Sperm are cheap, eggs are expensive. This one fact is a huge determinant of the differences in human behavior (and desires) between men and women. Women will never -- can never -- understand the desire of men to have a revolving door of nubile chicks coming through their bedroom.

While yes, women always want to "trade up," they do not have the biological capacity to have a new child every single day. Men, OTOH, biologically do. Therefore, men have in essence a limitless sexual desire, only constrained by the number of women they're able to bed.

 

[( . )( . )]

lesbian bed death

Interesting to see the butthurtness of monogamous guys in this thread.

http://mpcdot.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/anim-hurr.gif

For someone who shows up every time to hate on any forms of traditionalism without fail, I got to say the only one who consistently shows legitimate amounts "butthurtness" is you snarky. You hide it through fake nonchalance and under the guise of "it's all about the puzzy puzzy puzzy" but that's as genuine as a 3 dollar bill. Like some days you're a white collar lawyer and other times you're broke dandy playa who sleeps on couches.

And btw 30 sexual partners wasn't it? Isn't that a little low for a 40 year old "man" who claims to have weekly meth fueled POF gangbangs and sh!t? Coz you know you're like sooo much more progressive and edgy than all these other cis-squares......fvck your heteronormative patriarchy!!

 

[Prime_Beef]

I'm a bit older than you

Seen it all come and go, done more than a fair share of it myself.

Doesn't matter what the reason is. Women cheat. Often. Biology. I don't think you understand, hopefully someday you will. People are not constructed for monogamy. The very shape of our c*cks is such that the barbed shape scoops out the semen of the man there b4 you. Many sperm cells have no purpose in fertilization directly, they act as blockers and hunters of other male's sperm. We would not have evolved this way if there wasn't a whole lot of female cheating going on..

Actually I think you are the one who is wrong in this one.

Women tend to cheat hypergamously - i.e. they branch swing or cheat with men who they perceive to be better than their current partner, for example the bored girlfriend who cheats on her provider boyfriend with an alpha male.

It's much rarer for women to cheat purely based on sexual impulse rather than psychology.

Men on the hand are much more indiscriminate - they will cheat purely because they want sexual variety. Not because they want to trade up. This plays directly in to men's "natural desire to screw around". Yes. Some women do this, but again much rarer as the genuine reason and these women tend to be broken in some way.

I've subbed this thread as I am interested in how people will respond but so far OP seems to be right. No-one has actually made a convincing argument that proves he's wrong. I know I can't.

 

[Slickster]

Men win by getting to a position where they can secure multiple high value attractive women. Monogamy might be all well and good when your wife is young and hot (and even then I think there are difficulties with the familiarity aspect) but do you honestly think you're still winning when you're both 55 and her body is sagging and may not even attract you anymore.

Win what? Are you Charlie Sheen?

If you are speaking about "life" I can tell you that my definition of "winning" has certainly changed over time. At 30 years old, hot pvssy was very high on my priority list too and I had more than my share of it, but it eventually got old. The thrill of fvcking someone new didn't go away, it just didn't last anymore. It got to the point where the effort involved to get there wasn't worth the prize anymore. Pvssy is pvssy and other things and values became far more important to me. I guess some guys never get to that point and that's fine if you actually find real happiness and fulfillment in banging women. If that's who you are, great, just realize that at 40 or 50 you may be a completely different person.

I see that you either have two options as a man if you want any semblance of normality - like a stable gf, children, family, etc. Submit to the female optimal strategy of monogamy aware that she is with you because you are the highest value man she can secure at her current level of attractiveness, knowing that in ten years time the gap between your SMVs will be even further apart. Or two. Accept that your desire for young, hot women will never go away and keep a woman(s), goomah, mistress, concubine or whatever you want to call it on the side like the kings of old used to do.

Not only is monogamy unrealistic, but it is sub optimal for any man. If women would be more accepting of man's true nature it would be better for both parties. You could love your wife and your family, provide them in the best way you can and have your piece on the side, which IMO prevents the typical resentment and contempt which builds up in many marriages.

So you want the best of both worlds. You want a family and kids but you also want the swinging bachelor lifestyle too. The reality is those two things don't successfully coexist in the same house. While you may find it easy to cheat on your wife, you are essentially cheating on your kids too. While some guys may be ok with that it's probably wise to wait until you have a baby looking up at you before you form an opinion.


You are 30 years old and IMO you need to fvck WAY more chicks before you start theorizing like this.

Afterwards, if you still feel like you want to live your life crossed between The Brady Bunch and the Porn Channel, go for it. Something tells me you'll end up on the Jerry Springer Show.

 

[zekko]

If you are speaking about "life" I can tell you that my definition of "winning" has certainly changed over time. At 30 years old, hot pvssy was very high on my priority list too and I had more than my share of it, but it eventually got old. The thrill of fvcking someone new didn't go away, it just didn't last anymore. It got to the point where the effort involved to get there wasn't worth the prize anymore. Pvssy is pvssy and other things and values became far more important to me. I guess some guys never get to that point and that's fine if you actually find real happiness and fulfillment in banging women. If that's who you are, great, just realize that at 40 or 50 you may be a completely different person.

Words of wisdom here from Slickster.

I think the thing that disturbs me most about this thread is the idea that if I had a wife, I would be worried about what her SMV was compared to mine once she got older.