Seducer or Lech?

[Jariel]

Something that concerns me about a lot of advice given on this site, from PUA techniques to Gunwitch to basic kino, is that it can easily be perceived as creepy and lecherous if applied against a woman’s will. So let get it clear; the difference between being a seducer and being lecherous is this:

A woman reciprocates a seducer’s advances and repels a lech.

If she does not reciprocate and you persist, then you risk being known as a “lech”. You are the creep women back away from and warn their friends about. You make women feel uncomfortable, you get led on for the amusement of others and you’re usually confined to male company, discussing porn.

Unless you tell a woman outright you are interested, she is not going to tell you outright she is not interested. Instead, a disinterested women will respond to your signals with her signals…or maybe not respond at all. It’s important to look out for these while you are running your game and to be able to distinguish between “stop” and “proceed”.

"Make the ho say no"?? Sometimes a woman's body language screams "NO!" and that should be enough of a hint for any guy.

Now let’s get another thing clear: you are not going to make a disinterested woman fall for you by being a persistent lech. Kino, eye contact, sex talk, even some level of c+f are flirting techniques, not magic seduction spells. They are worthless unless a woman is attracted to you.

Several times I’ve been out with female friends and some loser has practically forced them against a wall in disgust with his so-called “seduction skills”. I’ve seen guys slap their asses and get their faces slapped in response. On more than one occasion I’ve seen women so scared by a guy’s advances I’ve had to step in and tell the guy to back off. The crazy thing is, some of these guys aren’t bad looking and might’ve stood a chance if it wasn’t for them being so creepy and lecherous.

Seduction is about exchanging signals of attraction, should be a progressive two-way process at all times.

Sometimes women just aren’t interested. Read the signals, be a man and get over it. Women don’t owe you anything and it’s not your right to take it.

 

[thecraftylefty]

True. But at points you have to be persistant to get what you really want. If you give up on the first try you're selling yourself short.

I do agree that I you're right about guys hanging on when they have no chance though. Experience will let you know when enough it enough and you're not getting anywhere. Cut your losses and move on to better prospects. Don't be that creepy guy (lech at you put it) that's the "tryhard" that everyone looks at and laughs at.

And you're right, it is a two-way process. It's a cooperative effort that makes things happen.


thecraftlyefty

 

[Don-Rocker]

Agreed,

I have been in many situations where the girl wanted to take things slow, yet each time I take little baby steps, a touch, kiss on the neck, a gentle rubbing of her arms or a back rub, then most of the time the girl reciprecates with something at a slightly higher level.

Sometimes as the dating Guru's say, no doesn't mean no, it just means try back in 15 minutes. The key is if you are stopped at any point, do not act uncomfortable or whine like a wussy boy, simply show no reaction, wait a few minutes and try working it up again. Believe it or not I think some women actually enjoy this more then a quick let's do it, remember they do not turn on immediately, but go up in increments, and this is true of each session, unless your in a relationship and the situation turns her on quickly.

Besides once you get used to slowly working up to making love, you will realize it's much better and more fun, because by the time she's ready dudes you will not have to do much at all, she will be begging you for some loving.

As with all things with women the key is to pay attention to them and try to never do anything that makes them uncomfortable.

This is why guys that try to take a girl out for dinner and then the second they get home try to make a move on her fail many times, unless allot of repor was established ahead of times.

Of course if a women says stop, then you need to stop, but many times I think guys interpret when they are really just saying slow down cowboy to be stop completely, then they get all flustered and uncomfortable, then the girl gets uncomfortable and the session is done with.

I think all us guys can beenfit in the area of romance by learning mediation and deep breathing skills, singing too believe it or now, anything which gives you mental/physical control is good in life. The key is being up to to turn up the heat slowly, yet at times intensely, then pause and rest your mind and body, then start again.

Lastly I think if your being honest with yourself and your not taking advantage of a girl, in other words do not try to bag a girl who clearly is only interested in a long term relationship by leading her simply to get sex, it's morally wrong thing to do anyway, plus it neevr works out. For guys/gals I think honestly between two consenting adults is important and the key to wonderful love making too.

My best lov'en has always been with women I had feelings for, in fact I never really have had sex with a women just for sex, but that's just me, not trying to judge others.

Anyway my 2 cents.

 

[izza]

This is an interesting point that is not discussed often enough. I think a lot of AFCs find sarging scary because they are terrified of being perceived as a lech, a creepy stalker that doesn't take no for an answer. I guess the difference is, some girls are testing you, and some girls just are not and will not be interested.

But nonetheless, I think it's important for there to be more discussion about when do you stop? When do you give up and say this girl has firmly decided against me, and is not worth the time anymore. To say "go for what you want" doesn't define a clear limit (if that there is a clear one) of when you should stop. In all honesty, I would feel ashamed to harrass a girl like some guys do, and I wonder if this hinders my development. Great post bro,

--Izza

 

[izza]

This is an interesting point that is not discussed often enough. I think a lot of AFCs find sarging scary because they are terrified of being perceived as a lech, a creepy stalker that doesn't take no for an answer. I guess the difference is, some girls are testing you, and some girls just are not and will not be interested.

But nonetheless, I think it's important for there to be more discussion about when do you stop? When do you give up and say this girl has firmly decided against me, and is not worth the time anymore. To say "go for what you want" doesn't define a clear limit (if that there is a clear one) of when you should slow down. In all honesty, I would feel ashamed to harrass a girl like some guys do, and I wonder if this hinders my development.

I think that if you entertain yourself approaching, your gut will tell you the answer. But that's not much of an answer. Anyway, great post bro, it certainly gives me something to overthink about

--Izza

 

[Jariel]

Thanks for the replies and the interesting points being made.

As with a lot of DJing practices, I think this is another area where many guys think in extremes. But I agree that there is definitely a balance to be found.

The problem I see (and have experienced in myself) is when wussy guys become so determined to show their masculinity, conquer their fear, express their desire that they lose their sense of tact and go charging into situations balls first.

I admit, I probably err a bit too much on the side of caution and may have lost out in some situations, but I have also blown some chances by being too forward. Finding the balance is the key, which I'd say involves having the confidence to act, but also being familiar with bodylanguage and indicators of interest beforehand.

 

[bbestar]

Originally posted by izza
This is an interesting point that is not discussed often enough. I think a lot of AFCs find sarging scary because they are terrified of being perceived as a lech, a creepy stalker that doesn't take no for an answer. I guess the difference is, some girls are testing you, and some girls just are not and will not be interested.

But nonetheless, I think it's important for there to be more discussion about when do you stop? When do you give up and say this girl has firmly decided against me, and is not worth the time anymore. To say "go for what you want" doesn't define a clear limit (if that there is a clear one) of when you should slow down. In all honesty, I would feel ashamed to harrass a girl like some guys do, and I wonder if this hinders my development.

I think that if you entertain yourself approaching, your gut will tell you the answer. But that's not much of an answer. Anyway, great post bro, it certainly gives me something to overthink about

--Izza

THis is one reason I don't do cold approaches out of the blue

 

[animal crackers]

I have never been considered a "lech" as you call it from doing a cold approach. I was very afraid of coming across this way before I got in field, and I know your coming from the right place, but you're just going to scare a lot of guys here.

Its only creepy if you make it creepy. Basically don't do any creepy leaning in and touching and you'll be fine.


And I think your perception of a "seducer" is a little off. To an outsider, this seducer (me) just looks like a cool guy that likes meeting new people. Or an honest guy that knows what he likes and goes after it with no apologies.



animal crackers

 

[Visceral]

Originally posted by izza
This is an interesting point that is not discussed often enough. I think a lot of AFCs find sarging scary because they are terrified of being perceived as a lech, a creepy stalker that doesn't take no for an answer. I guess the difference is, some girls are testing you, and some girls just are not and will not be interested.

It's too bad that being able to read a girl only comes with experience, because it would really help a lot of guys get over their "Nice Guy" ways if it could be learned.

Even I know that women don't like men who are threatening. No-one here would dispute that sexual aggression and dominance are key to getting laid, but no-one has bothered to discuss how to balance them with charm and warmth to keep them from becoming threatening.

If a "Nice Guy" could approach with confidence that his advances won't offend or hurt a woman, there'd be a lot less to stop him.

 

[izza]

Originally posted by animal crackers
To an outsider, this seducer (me) just looks like a cool guy that likes meeting new people. Or an honest guy that knows what he likes and goes after it with no apologies.

That's a good way of putting it.

"If a "Nice Guy" could approach with confidence that his advances won't offend or hurt a woman, there'd be a lot less to stop him."

Visceral, I agree completely.