Rise of the Asexual male

[EastWind]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

Either this article is biased, making these men purposefully seem feminine and weak, or the herbivore trait really is about those men giving up their balls once and for all.

The big difference is that in the first case, we have to discuss the possible origins - see below - while in the second case it's just the "beta males" giving up.

If the true causes and facts are what first came to my mind when I read about the "herbivore" thing, the reason is probably that finally some men are saying "**** it all" to consumerism and male disposability, i.e. this life is about me, and incidentally I don't need more than a job that pays the bills, saves up a little, an Xbox and free time to go hiking (insert different hobbies where needed).

So is it really about asexuality? Not necessarily. We've come to be in societies - apparently in Japan and the US more than here in Germany - where what with all that's going on the only men really having a good time with women are the ones with high testosterone and not a whole lot to loose in the first place. The rest of them have decided that since the thing that used to make male life rewarding - finding a mate, caring for her and your offspring while she took care of you in her feminine way and proving for her in return - is either just non-available or littered with bear traps, their time is better employed having fun.

When you take a long, hard look at it, having fun isn't all that expensive. If you look around a bit and get lucky, you might even get paid for your having fun, all without women.

 

[Poonani Maker]

This strikes a cord with me, cause many women (and men) Shame me for not being married or act in disbelief (I guess, cause I look like I'd be married - I was once virtually married to a oneitis and I guess that forever shifted my demeanor or physiology to "look" like I'm married). "Looking married" has probably helped me get places in life too, made me successful along the way cause people assumed I's married, but I'm not. People attribute "value" to you if you're married here in America, employers, contacts, customers, you name it, it's as if you have chained pvssy, you May have kids or will have kids; therefore, you Are a Goooooood person. You have a different tax situation than a single, you're exclusive. Bullsh!t! all attributed value to you just because of perceived "status."

Also on the "big purchase" front, I'm both, a, small luxury, and big luxury dude. I'm currently looking to buy sizable acreage to farm, fish, and hunt. In fact, looking at a few this Sunday with a realtor (don't trust Any of these people, but I have to use her to get into the gated ones). This is For Me, kinda My dream purchase, not to "impress" another woman but to have fun on without having to have a hunting/fishing licenses...My land, My fvckin around on how I like. I may fortify it for SHTF, make it self-sufficient. I'm forever making purchases to PREPARE for the worst case scenario and not some hoe I can impress. She'll die, for sure, in SHTF.

 

[Burroughs]

gina tingles are very important...but chasing them 24/7 means you are a slave to puzzy...there are a large number of men that will never score puzzy in numbers to justify the years of their life....so japanese men choose to fish

and drop out.

it is weak

but it is smart

it is the rare thing that is both

because at the end of the day life is about how you spend your time, time is the only thing we don't get back

if enough lower level men did this...women would have to change...the japanese have taken this route

western men will not...we are too arrogant in our perceived abilities....we'll see what happens

as a side note.. remember when the Tsunami hit...and we saw photos of Japanese people respectfully standing in line (single file) honoring one another's right's...to get food and water. contrast this with our society http://news.yahoo.com/fuel-pipeline-resumes-jersey-deliveries-gasoline-lines-linger-130057461.html

 

[EastWind]

I get what you are saying. You are right about the North American AFC. But AFC does not necessarily mean kowtowing to women. Complete withdrawl from the SMP is not the next step in unplugging, it's the next step in AFC-ism. If you're "not motivated by sex," you're either so low on testosterone that it's true, or you're deluding yourself because you do not have the Game to get sex. This is a classic sexless AFC trope: He's not getting laid, so he tells himself he doesn't need women to be happy. Approaching, getting laid, and enjoying women is not tantamount being a "slave to pvssy" if you're doing it correctly. There is a difference between unplugging and completely dropping out.

I thought most of this forum was about teaching men that we should, indeed, not need women to be happy?

 

[Bokanovsky]

I get what you are saying. You are right about the North American AFC. But AFC does not necessarily mean kowtowing to women. Complete withdrawl from the SMP is not the next step in unplugging, it's the next step in AFC-ism. If you're "not motivated by sex," you're either so low on testosterone that it's true, or you're deluding yourself because you do not have the Game to get sex. This is a classic sexless AFC trope: He's not getting laid, so he tells himself he doesn't need women to be happy. Approaching, getting laid, and enjoying women is not tantamount being a "slave to pvssy" if you're doing it correctly. There is a difference between unplugging and completely dropping out.

Read the full article here:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2009/06/the_herbivores_dilemma.html

You do have to read between the lines, as the article was published in a mainstream western publication and, from the outset, attempts to ridicule and demonize these men. But if you read carefully, two things are clear:

1) These guys are not withdrawing from society or becoming completely disinterested in sex. They are just less materialistic and place less importance on getting laid; and

2) Women are reacting to the decrease in male attention by...wait for it...starting to chase men themselves! Isn't that what everyone here ultimately wants - to be the prize?

 

[BMX]

They can still preserve their honor by way of seppuku.

 

[Burroughs]

from comments on slate:

"It's very telling how any discussion of men leads to blaming and shaming. It's "men's" fault the economy isn't doing well and reproduction rates are down. Really?

Last I heard women were the reproductive bottleneck and have been since we were single cell organisms. Last I heard it was women who were putting off marriage and children for their careers and this was how they were empowering themselves. When women do it it's a positive thing. When men do it it's the root of all our problems. Really Slate?

And what's with the "commitment phobia" accusation? Maybe men don't want to get married because women bring less to the table than ever before?

You can't even try to understand men and yet you wonder why we aren't interested in women. All you can do is judge and blame and shame and you wonder why we aren't interested in sex or marriage? You are fricken retarted."

another:

" You seem to forget that his statement represents about 70% of men in Japan and what seems to be the U.S. as well. That makes you less valuable to the 20% of men remaining that you want to secure unless you have something to offer them Ms. You forget, just because you have a vagina and can offer sex doesn't make you more valuable than any other women. It no longer differentiates you from something men can get and without the bitter nature of a woman like you. These are women men can get without commitment to the defunct institution of marriage.

Furthermore men at all levels of class are turning away from commitment to women. Yep. I see your skirt getting shorter and shorter while you are left wondering where are all the good men......they've gone their own way : )"


"I think men realize that women's sexual market value is overinflated for what we get in return. Men are turning away from women because of unfettered hypergamy and the unnatural sexual availability of women through the use of contraceptive technology. In other words you are over leveraged and as such you are devalued to the point of male indifference.

This means you have got women who are 5s walking around behaving as if they are 8-10s. Men are asking themselves what they get out of the whole deal and if women are worth the effort.

The numbers indicate that on a large scale men are withdrawing from a commitment to marriage and women and either show a marginal interest in putting in the minimal effort to obtain a little sex and others are indifferent to the proposition all together....We both lose lady. Enjoy riding the c**k carousel of men who will not commit to you lady. When you are done you will find you are not as valuable to men as they think they are."

"Why shouldnt they want to conserve energy? Its a trend that should be mimic all over. Men need to stand for their freedom. Freedom from having to be presured into relationships. Sex always has strings attached. Always having to make more and more money, and buy more and more things that dont really make you happy. Inner happines is best. Taking care of a garden, reading books, going alone to museums, or just taking a walk. Lots of money or sex cant fill every need. The more you have, the less you are. Good for the grass eaters of Japan. Imagine how terrified most women would be if this trend really takes off globally. Real equality of the sexes."

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

as a side note.. remember when the Tsunami hit...and we saw photos of Japanese people respectfully standing in line (single file) honoring one another's right's...to get food and water. contrast this with our society http://news.yahoo.com/fuel-pipeline-resumes-jersey-deliveries-gasoline-lines-linger-130057461.html

The American hating main stream media LOVE to hold up the Japanese as "superior" to American culture because it's an underhanded dig at American culture.

Trust me. There was plenty of looting, and even rapes in the refugee centers. Many of which are still standing this long after the disaster because the corrupt politicians are too busy spending the donated cash on their Yakuza contacts in the construction industry.

Japan is NOT a country where people voluntarily respect each other's rights. They behave the way they do BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

They stood in line like that because most of them are SCARED WITLESS about going against the grain of society.

But in private, these people have ZERO respect for each other's rights.

Now back to your courageous herbivores who are voluntarily dropping out.

You DO realize that 99% of these fools still live at home with their parents, right? And they're living on wealth that THEY DIDN'T EARN, right?

And for most of them, their MOTHERS still cook their dinner for them every night, right?

 

[Bokanovsky]

The American hating main stream media LOVE to hold up the Japanese as "superior" to American culture because it's an underhanded dig at American culture.

Trust me. There was plenty of looting, and even rapes in the refugee centers. Many of which are still standing this long after the disaster because the corrupt politicians are too busy spending the donated cash on their Yakuza contacts in the construction industry.

Japan is NOT a country where people voluntarily respect each other's rights. They behave the way they do BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

They stood in line like that because most of them are SCARED WITLESS about going against the grain of society.

But in private, these people have ZERO respect for each other's rights.

Now back to your courageous herbivores who are voluntarily dropping out.

You DO realize that 99% of these fools still live at home with their parents, right? And they're living on wealth that THEY DIDN'T EARN, right?

And for most of them, their MOTHERS still cook their dinner for them every night, right?

Surely you exaggerate. Not saying that Japan is some sort of a perfect society (far from it), but if things were as bad as you describe, it wouldn't be one of the richest countries in the world. Instead, it would be like Africa or some other third world dump.

 

[sodbuster]

Well, my mom cooks better than my ex-wife did. BUT living with my parents would drive me NUTS in less than a week

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Surely you exaggerate. Not saying that Japan is some sort of a perfect society (far from it), but if things were as bad as you describe, it wouldn't be one of the richest countries in the world. Instead, it would be like Africa or some other third world dump.

Well, not to veer too far off topic, but there's many reasons for countries to become wealthy.

In general, most Japanese are timid and compliant. They don't rock the boat. They rarely have political demonstrations that rival western countries.

People can either stand passively in line because they CAN riot, and see the benefit, and CHOOSE not to.

Or they can stand passively in line because they really feel they have no other choice.

Japan is the latter, rather than the former which the OP was asserting.

But trust me, when nobody's looking, Japanese people are far from the peace loving, human rights respecting people that the OP alluded to. Take away the social pressure to be peaceful, and forget it.

Just Google Nanking. During WWII, when it was socially acceptable, they were some of the vicious and ruthless soldiers the world has ever seen (at least when they met an inferior enemy).

Just in modern Japan, it's socially UNACCEPTABLE to do anything other than timidly stand in line and wait your turn.

Japan is a perfect model for an outside source to come in with a capital model, set up factories, and then let them copy it again and again. They're a bit weak in the innovation.

 

[Bokanovsky]

But trust me, when nobody's looking, Japanese people are far from the peace loving, human rights respecting people that the OP alluded to. Take away the social pressure to be peaceful, and forget it.

The same can be said about all people, not just the Japanese. Westerners face tremendous pressure to maintain a facade of tolerance and political correctness, but in their private lives, most are anything but. Take someone like Bill Clinton, for example. He called himself the first black president and even opened the Clinton Foundation in Harlem, hoping that being popular with blacks would help his old hag of a wife become president. At the same time, he and Hillary had no qualms calling their household servants "n*ggers" in private. Bill, of course, wasn't all too happy when n*ggers ditched his wifey for one of their own, but he got over it pretty quickly and started kissing Obama's ass, figuring it was necessary to remain politically relevant.

Just Google Nanking. During WWII, when it was socially acceptable, they were some of the vicious and ruthless soldiers the world has ever seen (at least when they met an inferior enemy).

Google Philippine-American War. Americans soldiers were no less vicious or ruthless in that conflict than the Japanese were in WWII.

 

[SXS]

the article is biased as hell. Meh.

 

[Boilermaker]

I usually like taiyuu's comments but he suddenly goes Berserk when it comes to Japan?

Japanese is not good at innovation? I must copy Backbreaker and just put a "lol" here.

You are obviously not in a technological line of work.

And how about those incisive remarks about the inner minds of every single

Japanese who stood on line quietly and didn't rape anyone (at least on camera) like our studs in New Orleans? Our guys must definitely have had a choice, now.

The usual question goes to you this time:

How the heck do you know why they behave the way they behave?

Just because you have spent a few years on the island doesn't automatically

make you, um.... a mind reader, or a skilled social anthropologist.

Claiming one of the leading nations in the world as a -no-choicer- is ... I don't

know. What is it taiyuu?

A lecture on rationalization and self-deceit is in order? Hmm?

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

I usually like taiyuu's comments but he suddenly goes Berserk when it comes to Japan?

berserk? Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough. Japanese are like all other people. Always acting to achieve the most benefit with the least effort according to their level of skill.

The OP seemed to allude that Japanese are somehow "better" than the rioting west because they chose to stand quietly in line, as opposed to folks in the west who riot at any chance they get.

Keep in mind that most of the stuff that most people know about the west and Japan are filtered through the main stream media, who generally hold Japan in much higher esteem than the west.

I was merely pointing out that here in Japan there's just as much crime, rape, thuggery, etc. It's also interesting to note that Japan is the pedophile capital of the world. Possession of pedophile pornography is not considered even a misdemeaner, and underage prostitution is rampant.

It's been estimated that as many as 1/10 high school girls have turned tricks to pay for designer clothes.

I'm not being anti-Japan, I'm just pointing out that Japan is no better, or no worse, than any other country.

Japanese is not good at innovation? I must copy Backbreaker and just put a "lol" here.

You are obviously not in a technological line of work.

I have a degree in physics and have spent years in research and development. It's widely accepted that while being a wealthy country, Japan isn't known for it's technological innovation. Modification and improvement, yes, but innovation, no. (And for the record, Japan is fast losing her edge in technological advancement. All the big names that made Japan Inc. a world power are bleeding red ink, while Korean companies are starting to shine. And when it comes to having some civil disobedience, those Koreans know how to throw down. I lived there, too. I'd much rather brawl against Japanese than Koreans.)

And how about those incisive remarks about the inner minds of every single

Japanese who stood on line quietly and didn't rape anyone (at least on camera) like our studs in New Orleans? Our guys must definitely have had a choice, now.

As I mentioned before, that was their best choice. I've lived here over five years, and plenty of Japanese have agreed with me. They stand in line not because they choose respect for each other's private property, it's because they fear stepping out of line and being noticed as an "outlier" by their peers.

Individual rights, and property are much less important here. Group cohesiveness is the most important thing. You can't look at behavior of Japanese and compare it to the West. Different cultures, different expectations.

The usual question goes to you this time:

How the heck do you know why they behave the way they behave?

Just because you have spent a few years on the island doesn't automatically

make you, um.... a mind reader, or a skilled social anthropologist.

Claiming one of the leading nations in the world as a -no-choicer- is ... I don't

know. What is it taiyuu?

A lecture on rationalization and self-deceit is in order? Hmm?

My original point was to disagree with the OP who said "Look, Japanese people are standing in line. They are peaceful. We in the west are not."

I stand by my original statement. They were standing in line because that was their best option.

And as I also mentioned before, there were plenty of people who weren't standing in line, but they didn't get much press.

Before you go accusing me of trying to read minds, let me show you an example.

Years ago, there was a rash of mysterious envelopes filled with money left in places like restrooms and library bookshelves. They each had a large sum of money in them.

Every single time that somebody found them, they would turn them into the police.

Now somebody could hear that and claim this as proof that Japanese are more "noble" or "civil" or "peaceful" than those in the west.

But after questioning many of my friends and colleagues what they would do in that situation were it to happen to them, but more importantly WHY they would do it, the answer was always the same:

"I'd turn it in to the police."

Why?

"Because I'd be afraid I'd get in trouble otherwise."

Not ONE of the people ever said because it was the right thing to do, or they worried some poor fool lost his money.

Now the people rioting in New York obviously don't care about getting caught. If there was a cop on every corner with a loaded shotgun, who would shoot rioters on sight, then there wouldn't be any rioting.

Japanese people, perhaps because they are a largely homogeneous society, seem to carry that "fear of being caught" in their minds a lot more effectively than us westerners do.

For those in the West, that "fear of being caught" has long gone.

Obviously I agree that western behavior is more repugnant than Japanese behavior. One of the reasons I enjoy living here so much is I never have to worry about getting mugged or jacked.

I just don't agree that the west is "barbaric", while Japan is "peaceful."

Japanese just have a much stronger "fear of being caught" and for slightly different reasons, than westerners.

They are peaceful because they are more timid. Not because they are more righteous.

 

[Burroughs]

Obviously I agree that western behavior is more repugnant than Japanese behavior. One of the reasons I enjoy living here so much is I never have to worry about getting mugged or jacked.

I just don't agree that the west is "barbaric", while Japan is "peaceful."

Japanese just have a much stronger "fear of being caught" and for slightly different reasons, than westerners.

They are peaceful because they are more timid. Not because they are more righteous.

So Tokyo Taco after all your mental jacking off you agree with me :crackup: :crackup:

You're a physics guy huh...yeah I manage over 50 PHDs....I've noticed all scientists have to find some hair to split to get their panties twisted before finally agreeing with a larger point....you created a strawman to grandstand:cheer:

Peaceful because they are timid or righteous who the fvck cares WHY someone is peaceful as long as he IS peaceful...

 

[Poonani Maker]

Brazilian dudes are definitely more "forward" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=931LYUF6r4Q

Also, I have a bud from work, a Puerto Rican, his son is an pro b-ball player (minors)...very forward with women, And he's married at that. Still, brutish in speaking with women and you can not get away from him if you keep talking to him, he'll just go On and on and on and on talking. Very few people, in America, are like that. Most people are Short with you in convo, but 1 outta 200 will hold you hostage talking for hours in the parking lot whatever, and you just can't get away.

 

[Burroughs]

the lesson here is stuck up hb 5 chipmunk faced chicks get hit on by brazilians

 

[Boilermaker]

berserk? Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough. Japanese are like all other people. Always acting to achieve the most benefit with the least effort according to their level of skill.

Poor choice of words by me. Sorry, just meant that you are over enthusiastic than usual on this topic.

The OP seemed to allude that Japanese are somehow "better" than the rioting west because they chose to stand quietly in line, as opposed to folks in the west who riot at any chance they get.

I still think there's lots of empirical evidence to suggest this. The only measurable quantity here is "actions". Getting past it and making claims on their actual "intent" isn't a strong argument. Maybe they appear timid because they are righteous? How do you know that?

Keep in mind that most of the stuff that most people know about the west and Japan are filtered through the main stream media, who generally hold Japan in much higher esteem than the west.

Couldn't see a simple reason of this either. Why would the media systematically push such a view?

I was merely pointing out that here in Japan there's just as much crime, rape, thuggery, etc. It's also interesting to note that Japan is the pedophile capital of the world. Possession of pedophile pornography is not considered even a misdemeaner, and underage prostitution is rampant.

Reasons could be manifold. My favorite guess is, every young Japanese chick looks like she's 10 years old.

I have a degree in physics and have spent years in research and development.

Glad that you are a physicist!... Says more about your solid posts.

It's widely accepted that while being a wealthy country, Japan isn't known for it's technological innovation. Modification and improvement, yes, but innovation, no.

It's widely accepted by whom? Japanese universities are trailing at break-neck pace,their American counterparts. They are publication output is close to the US combined.

As I mentioned before, that was their best choice. I've lived here over five years, and plenty of Japanese have agreed with me. They stand in line not because they choose respect for each other's private property, it's because they fear stepping out of line and being noticed as an "outlier" by their peers.

Ok - such and such agrees with me is the most usual retort in these discussions, but it's not convincing. I will statistically find 10-15 Japanese people who agree with me as well, if I specifically count the ones who agree with me that is.

Individual rights, and property are much less important here. Group cohesiveness is the most important thing. You can't look at behavior of Japanese and compare it to the West. Different cultures, different expectations.

Hence, their righteousness. You are hinting at their more civilized structure, yourself.

My original point was to disagree with the OP who said "Look, Japanese people are standing in line. They are peaceful. We in the west are not."

I stand by my original statement. They were standing in line because that was their best option.

And my objection is this point. Judging their actions is one thing, it's factual, judging their intentions is another, it ceases to be about facts, it becomes an opinion. The fact that Japanese displayed exemplary behavior was widely reported all over the world. I am sure there were people who rioted and raped others, it's after all the theory of large numbers. Of course you'll see them everywhere...But Japan seems to be a different culture with different values as you suggest , and I think it's unfair to project them as "cowards who don't have a choice" when they do the right thing.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

"cowards who don't have a choice" when they do the right thing.

Therein lies my entire argument.

The OP originally posited that the "herbivore males" are making a CHOICE to forego women. My OPINION, based on my EXPERIENCE, tells me it's not a CHOICE.

They are doing what humans always do. Get the best they can given the skill set they've got in the particular environment they are in.

The OP further gave an example of Japanese passively standing in line. Yes, I agree their ACTIONS are much better than the rioting New Yorkers.

Again, I suggest, in my OPINION, based on my EXPERIENCE, that it's not a CHOICE. They are merely getting the best they can get based on their skills in that particular environment.

As the OP noted, their BEHAVIOR is better than their counterparts in the west during SEEMINGLY similar circumstances.

My point is this (which I think you unknowingly supported by mentioning I have no idea what their intentions are):

People A may behave in a way could be considered "more desirable" than people B, but you can't say that people A are "better" or "more righteous" or more "morally upright" than people B.

I believe that the OP was trying to point out that the behavior was some sort of rational choice in response to a social situation. And because of that RATIONAL CHOICE (to forego women), they are somehow morally superior.
They don't like the way women are behaving, so they CHOOSE to respond in a different way.

My point is that they aren't CHOOSING anything. They are merely acting as all humans do, which is to get the best they can get given their skills and their situation.

And as such, they are neither morally superior or inferior, nor more "right" or less "right." They are simply behaving as humans behave.

And to use your sentence, I believe that ALL HUMANS are "cowards who don't have a choice."

Or we ALWAYS default to our BEST CHOICE, which is to get as much as we can get in the situation we are in based on our skills.

Everything else is after the fact rationalization.

To understand why Japanese stand passively line while New Yorkers cower in the dark with bows and arrows, one must understand ALL the differences between the situations, which are far to many to even BEGIN to go into here.

But I'll agree with your (modified) statement:

All Humans Are Cowards With Little Choice.

In fact, while I realize this doesn't prove anything and is only cherry picking, several historians agree with me:

The history of humanity is the history of lazy, scared people trying to get more stuff with less effort.