Religion and the DJ

[Rollo Tomassi]

My explanation for Haggart was just that he was/is a charlitan. In short, you're suggesting he's a christain that goofed up.

Agreed, but you're missing the point. I'm not suggesting he goofed up at all. He was what he was; queer as a 3 dollar bill and tragically human. He's a shining example of biology trumping conviction. What is belief but a set of internalized mental schemas and behavior modifications? There's no doubt in my mind that Ted Haggard could very easily passed a polygraph test about his "religious convictions" he believed the things he said in church, but his biology dictated his behavior.

,..from Paul's perspective, I think its possible you are not doing enough of what's required for forgiveness as forgiveness is an essential element to "salvation".

Nothing is required for forgiveness beyond accpeting faith:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - Ephesians 2:8

And that's Paul writing this.

I realize that anything I type today is going to sound like rationalizations for doing whatever you wanna do, but understand that I don't interpret the Bible in the bastardized sense that the popularized idea of "what a christian should be" has developed into in just the last 60 years. That too, of course, sounds like another changing of the rules to fit my point of view, but you wanted my reasoning for reconciling my belief with what I advocate. I'm not trying to flame you here either AZANON, but personally I think you have more of a problem with what I advocate here, rather than any ideological motivation for them, because it's a personal affront to the decisions you've made for your own life in getting married so early and not experiencing more in the time you have been. I'm not trying to patronize you by stating this, but for the same reasons you can call into question how I justify myself, I can use the same method with your own situation. The difference is that I can speak from experiences that you chose to limit yourself from.

 

[Nighthawk]

Paul is to Jesus as Disney is to Pocahontas.

 

[azanon]

Agreed, but you're missing the point. I'm not suggesting he goofed up at all. He was what he was; queer as a 3 dollar bill and tragically human. He's a shining example of biology trumping conviction. What is belief but a set of internalized mental schemas and behavior modifications? There's no doubt in my mind that Ted Haggard could very easily passed a polygraph test about his "religious convictions" he believed the things he said in church, but his biology dictated his behavior.

I'm personally undecided on the "biology" of homosexuality. I probably lean more towards LMS's viewpoint of it; that its more a perversion than it is hardwired biology. It was only sum 15 years ago or so that it was removed from the DSM-IV psychological disorder book and that probably was mostly due to political pressure.

Now dont get me wrong... I get turned on as much as any guys with 2 women going at it.... especially if i can join in!

But, more on point, since the bible specifically identifies homosexuality as also being a damnable sin, then it suggests that he could have chosen to not "partake" in this sin. So, from a christain perspective, biology didn't win out; sin and "choosing self over God" did.

Nothing is required for forgiveness beyond accpeting faith:For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - Ephesians 2:8

There are tons of versus that say more than faith is required; a testiment to the bible's contradictory nature. I'll assume you concede this. If not, let me know and I'll bombard you with versus that suggest more than faith is needed.

I'm not trying to flame you here either AZANON, but personally I think you have more of a problem with what I advocate here, rather than any ideological motivation for them, because it's a personal affront to the decisions you've made for your own life in getting married so early and not experiencing more in the time you have been.

So far, you haven't flammed me and have been respectful.

What i'm about to tell you is truth and you can either believe it or not. I do not regret marrying my wife. I met her when I did, so that was the time to marry her. Yes, in hindsight, I probably would have like to have had more sex prior to marrying her when i did, but I think that's more a "grass is greener on the other side" issue than anything else. What i mean is, if someone knew the "deal" I have (my wife), they would say "Are you out of your freakin' mind; that woman's wonderful!".

Please don't feel bad for me on this point though. I can assure you I am compensating for this "regret", if you will, in my own personal way. Generally speaking, i spend very little time regretting the past, and far more time living life to the fullest today.

I'm not trying to patronize you by stating this, but for the same reasons you can call into question how I justify myself, I can use the same method with your own situation. The difference is that I can speak from experiences that you chose to limit yourself from.

RT, the plan truth was that, back then, i was a strong practicing christain. I turned down 4 women that specifically and outright said or impled "please screw me". If i have any regret, I'd take all 4 of those up on their offer and maybe even add another 12 to that. Anyway, I have enough going for me that, single, I could do that without issue. But my parents raised me that way and, unfortunately, it took a lot of world experience and a masters degree in Biology to undo that "parental manipulation", if you will. That mental process and transformation wasn't fully completed until long after i was married. I at least experienced "a few" women prior to my marriage.

So, yeah, I would have loved to have been raised by parents who would have taught me out to think more dynamically and not warped my mind so much as to make me terrified to have anything resembling sex with a woman.

But all of this is besides the point of this discussion, quite frankly. I'm asking you only because you are arguably the most gifted writer here, you specifically identified youself as being a "christ-follower", yet you claim to have had 40-50 women. That's the only reason I asked you. If you want to presume it was more than that, then you're reading into it.

 

[Taviii]

I find it that asking for total faith and the sacrifice of living a life with total disregard to your own desires in favor of something that was never proved to exist, and here I'm reffering to heaven/hell, is a bit sadistic, especially as it is more of a "do it and don't ask any questions" philosophy.

 

[PeterNorthisawesome]

Yes another Christian vs. Atheist thread! I'm sure that Rollo Tomassi isn't dumb like Dues, so I hope this discussion will be interesting. Rollo Tomassi since you believe in "God" and "Jesus" please answer these few quetions!

1. Is there any "evidence" that supports GOD? Wouln't it be "easier" if he did something like write his messages across the sky to end all the debate? If humans were all sinners why was his messenger "Jesus" in human form? Couldn't he just send an angel down... I would switch if an angel came down and brought God's words... still haven't happened yet... in 2000 years.

2. What makes your "God" more believable than other "Gods" like Zues, Allah and Dharma? People all believe/believed in them... which one is the "right" one?

3. Please answer the "Paradox of Stone" Can God create a stone so big that he cannot lift?

"If he can’t, then there is something that he cannot do, namely create the stone, and therefore he is not omnipotent.

If he can, then there is also something that he cannot do, namely lift the stone, and therefore he is not omnipotent.

Either way, then, God is not omnipotent. A being that is not omnipotent, though, is not God. God, therefore, does not exist."

4. "The only differance between religion and CULT is the NUMBER of people believing in it." Richard Dawkins......... what do you think of this quote? Agree/Disagree why?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

This thread wasn't begun as a theological debate - religion is a no no on this forum (and for good reason)remember? It was started in response to AZANON and justifying DJ principles with religious convictions. But just to entertain you:

1.) My personal belief is that God exists in an Aristotlean sense. In that anything that can exist in the physical must first begin as a concept, an idea, and that in order for that idea to come into being a will must be present to conceive it. For me to make a chair, I must first exist before the universal idea of a chair can be conceived and realized. Now blow this up to a cosmic scale and God makes a bit more sense. And all of that of course relies on existentialism, but even the abstract idea of existentialism still needs a will to conceive it and experience it.

Now then, why wouldn't an omniscient God make is presence known to all in a big fiery message across the sky? That would spoil all the fun now wouldn't it? You could very easily google the cheat codes to your favorite computer game and win everytime, but would the game be at all interesting? If human beings were made to be just automatons and had no choice but to act in pre-scripted ways would the love they expressed for their creator be valid? There has to be doubt for there to be faith. We live in a world that has rules, the rock I stand on has to be solid enough to support my weight, as well as crush me if it rolls down a hill on top of me. So yeah, God could end all debate with a thunderbolt, he just chooses not to.

2.) Like I said I'm not much for pantheism so Zeus is kind of out from the get go, but I get your message, "what makes your Krischun God the be all end all" to which I'll say I dunno. You see now we're adding a human element to the realm of ideas mix I explained above and as imperfect beings we're going to be inclined to take advantage of people's existential fears and put them to our own uses. One constant mistake people of faith from any religion make is the assumption that people without a belief in God will miraculously be converted to their ideology when in fact they lack a basic belief in ANYTHING spiritual. You have to be open to the idea that a God exists before you can go into the details of what makes up the character of that omniscience. Maybe they all worship the same deity, and just express it and exploit it in different ways. People are fallible, never judge the merits of a religion based on the people who practice it. Rgardless, the existence of God shouldn't be argued from the standpoint of any particular religious stance, but a philisophical one and a rational one. This is where the majority of christians fail.

3.) Paradox of the Stone? Heh,..easy, yes and no, because God IS the stone. I'm sure the common Krischun answer you're used to is something like "we'll God can do anything he chooses, blah blah,.." and this just comes from a simple faith in a particular religious franchise. You see for a will to be omniscient (i.e. God) it (he) would have to literally BE the idea of the embodiment of the concept. In fact the very idea someone conceived the Paradox of the Stone is validation of the realm of ideas. See how easy that is?

4.) I agree whole-heartedly. Why? Because I believe in these Laws of Power:

Law 27: Play on People's Need to Believe to Create a Cultlike Following
People have an overwhelming desire to believe in something. Become the focal point of such desire by offering them a cause, a new faith to follow. Keep your words vague but full of promise; emphasize enthusiasm over rationality and clear thinking. Give your new disciples rituals to perform, ask them to make sacrifices on your behalf. In the absence of organized religion and grand causes, your new belief system will bring you untold power.

Law 32: Play to People's Fantasies
The truth is often avoided because it is ugly and unpleasant. Never appeal to truth and reality unless you are prepared for the anger that comes from disenchantment. Life is so harsh and distressing that people who can manufacture romance or conjure up fantasy are like oases in the desert: Everyone flocks to them. There is great power in tapping into the fantasies of the masses.

Precious few people in the world truly, intelligently and critically think about the foundations of their faith, much less the existence of God - this applies to both athiests as well as the devout.

 

[azanon]

This thread wasn't begun as a theological debate - religion is a no no on this forum (and for good reason)remember? It was started in response to AZANON and justifying DJ principles with religious convictions.

I appreciate you allowing it as moderator. I was genuinely interested in your responses, and the thread was meaningful to me.

Ultimately, i'm not going to "not respect" or disrespect someone because they believe in God because I wouldn't be left with that many people to choose from (as some sort of friend or companion). The last statistics i heard (for the US) was that ~80% of Americans identify themselves as Christains, and over 90% believe in God. We're (agnostics/atheists) outnumbered bigtime!

I don't let the statistics bother me though because there was a time when well over 90% of the people living in England believed the earth was flat. The people that thought otherwise were thought of as those weird thinking types that are "too smart for their own good".

 

[PeterNorthisawesome]

Thanks for the response, way better than what other Christians gave me in the past. I have no problem with people believing in religion, I just wanted a decent reason why people actually bought into it.

If I was God, I would still show some divine intervention to end all the suffering caused by religous wars/persecution/genocide, in which innocent children are getting killed.

 

[RAFCbearfilm]

Law 27: Play on People's Need to Believe to Create a Cultlike Following
People have an overwhelming desire to believe in something. Become the focal point of such desire by offering them a cause, a new faith to follow. Keep your words vague but full of promise; emphasize enthusiasm over rationality and clear thinking. Give your new disciples rituals to perform, ask them to make sacrifices on your behalf. In the absence of organized religion and grand causes, your new belief system will bring you untold power.

Law 32: Play to People's Fantasies
The truth is often avoided because it is ugly and unpleasant. Never appeal to truth and reality unless you are prepared for the anger that comes from disenchantment. Life is so harsh and distressing that people who can manufacture romance or conjure up fantasy are like oases in the desert: Everyone flocks to them. There is great power in tapping into the fantasies of the masses.

Precious few people in the world truly, intelligently and critically think about the foundations of their faith, much less the existence of God - this applies to both athiests as well as the devout.[/QUOTE]

Before I begin...I quoted you Rollo as I can not think of one verse from the Bible where Jesus offered anything like this...kind of goes to prove your point I think.

Excellent debate guys, you both bring up good points and as a recently refreshed Christian I am going to have to side with azureus on this one. You make some great points Rollo but Azureas has the better theology. IMO
You must accept the Bible as a whole, even if the whole Genesis Creation theory may be a little hard to swallow in the Time Line, there has to be truth in it or else everything that comes after has no meaning.

We are born into this world as sinners, thanks to Adam and it is only through the redemption that comes through belief in Jesus that we are saved. That's it, end of story. Reading the bible, going to church, doing good deeds does nothing to write our name in the book of Life. We are born of Sin into this world and are bombarded with choices of sin throughout our life, it is not our job to condemn those who sin but to try and overcome the sin in our own lives. Some may fail and in the example of Haggard, whether he has true faith in God or not will be only known between him and God and reconciled one day as will we all.
I used to sound a LOT like you did Rollo, I was a Christ follower, but not a Christian. It was not until enrolling in a Bible Study and truly understanding the word of God for myself that I started becoming more of a Christian and a better Don Juan. I find myself more at ease with the ladies and more adept at charm and conversation because my ultimate goal is NOT to get laid. The human side of me WANTS to but the Spiritual side of me allows me to overcome that need of the body and look for the ladies that offer some quality over flash. We get more power in our lives by stepping over sin and not giving in easily. I may not date as much or look to get laid all the time as others do here, but I am MUCH happier with myself now and find my AFC days a great laugh to think back on. I have multiple plates spinning that I could have if ever I want to give in to temptation but I choose not to.
So there is a place for Christianity in this realm of Don Juan's as long as we all respect ourselves and others choices and kick the AFC's arses into Don Juanism one way or another. I just wish I could have had access to this kind of material in my 20's but i am just pleased to have it now.
So I guess there is some predetermination in the God's will for my life after all!

P.S. As for STR8UP, I read a lot of your thread's and am not quite sure if they are true or not, but if your friend is a true christian, he may have slipped but has not fallen, God's grace goes to cover the sin in our lives but is not a license to sin. If he repents his sin he will be forgiven, if he does it again, he will be forgiven again, such is God's grace.

 

[PeterNorthisawesome]

Christian sins are SO VAGUE and impossible like moral sins=NO DRUGS/ALCOHOL well isn't wine alcohol? and coffee a drug? Oh wait wine... that's Jesus' blood? If we are born sinners why can't we sin? God is forgiving right and he'll forgive us if we confess. But, why are we born sinners then even before we commit any sins? It's because of Adam and Eve... who created the human civilization through... incest. I dont' get how someone like RAFCbearfilm can be so into it, clearly if you did believe God you wouldn't be a DJ since being promiscuous and having sex before marriage is a HUGE SIN.

What's with the homosexuality issue anyway? The bible says NO and that it's a sin and you'll be put to death. Even though killing another man is a sin. Well I guess it's ok since God sent his son to be tortured and killed.

"He that smieth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death." Exodus 21:15

So beating and killing your kid is also condoned in the bible. Great!

These internal inconsistancies just makes me an ATHEIST and think that religion is all bullsh*t and is a tool to brainwash people into behaving "correctly."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKDKq_PPbk

That's how Christians recruit more Christians... when they're kids.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Sorry guys, I hate to close this thread, but it's now leaning toward proselytizing and that's why SS has the rule. It was interesting while it lasted.