Relationship Game - Intro

game.r

Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
136
Reaction score
4
I made a post recently about embarking on a long term relationship (LTR). I asked for advice on what to expect, what to look out for and how to maintain the frame, basically anything that guys thought I should be aware of. Instead of getting a ton of advice on relationship, I was told by a few posters

1. That I choose to date one girl because I was afraid to be seen dating two women
2. That I wanted to control the frame because I didn’t feel good about the relationship
3. That I didn’t feel confident about myself as a man or a human being
4. That I should not settle for what’s easiest or most convenient

All because I’m thinking about starting a relationship! I will admit that perhaps the girl being a single mother may have also had something to do with it. Still I was disappointed that the extent (98%) of the advice was “don’t get into a relationship”.

I want to start a dialogue about relationships here in the mature man forum. Everyone here is over 25 and probably has had a few relationships that have gone south. So let’s talk about what happens after you get the girl. There will be some guys that say don’t get into a relationship at all, just keep several girlfriends. If that’s what you choose to do, so be it, this is not for you.

However, I believe most guys here in the mature man forum may want a relationship. The reason for learning game is to be able to have choice. To be able to understand what is going on and make the best possible choice for one’s self.

Most of us have been in relationships. They all start out really well but somewhere things fall apart. This series will be about trying to avoid the pitfalls of relationships and giving your best shot at making it work the way you want it to. I am not claiming to be a guru, but I will put my ideas out there and hope you guys come back with your ideas. Let’s have some meaningful dialogue on this issue and try to hash it out.

Like I said earlier if you’re not interested in a relationship that’s cool, this is not for you.

If you are interested in eventually having a relationship and having this discussion, please respond to this post. Future Post will be titled Relationship Game – [Topic for discussion]

Thought: The biggest test of a DJ/Alpha male/PUA is a Relationship.

-game.r
 

Radninja

Don Juan
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
37
Reaction score
5
Location
boston
"Getting the girl" and "a relationship" are subjective concepts. You spend time with a girl. You have a connection, which evolves. Everything else is just unnecessary labels.
 

kingsam

Master Don Juan
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
989
Reaction score
13
Location
England, baby!
game.r said:
Thought: The biggest test of a DJ/Alpha male/PUA is a Relationship.
so true... a Doc Love quote was "any guy can get a girl to fall in love wiht him...its keeping her thats the hard part"

Almost every guy, even the biggest afc choade (maybe excluding a number of the guys here) has started a relationship wiht a girl, most RL's dont get past 3 months....

a lot of guys hand over the balls and manhood for the "on tap" sex and attention... thus get screwed and eventually dumped (girls MOSTLY do the dumping!)
------

DOC LOVE has the most solid LTR advice around...
-----

important factors - Screening the women very stictly is crucial to find a quality woman, setting boundaries, not seeing them too much, taking it slowly (most people rush into RL's way too fast)

its hard to remain a challenge in a ltr and you need to do it sublty

the woman must have integrity and be loyal, must be flexible (instead of stubborn/hardheaded) and a "giver" (rather than just a taker)... <- sound obvious but crucial for a good LTR

at least 2 years before getting married - you need to see every side of her, how does she act and deal with hard situations!? does she have her Sh!t together?

yes ! as the others said never be afrid to WALK away... make SURE AS HELL she knows it
 
Last edited:

boomerick

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
348
Reaction score
27
I beleive that most of the advice you were given WASN"T to avoid relationships....

I beleive it was to avoid relationships with single moms.....(good advice, time and experience tested.)

You might want to read your previous postings over again ......(Then do a site search for single mom threads and read them.Ugh. )

As far as relationships go you may be guilty of trying to "pedistalize" your LTR.....

DON"T.......

Relax...let the relationship happen....continue to do the DJ stuff that sucessfully got you there....lead ...maintain frame....don't spill your guts etc.....

The key to the LTR is to not suddenly decide you are in one and can safely turn back into an AFC...

YOU CAN NEVER GO BACK....

AND remember this ----- women NEVER stop sh!t testing you...NEVER...NEVER...NEVER......

The kiss of death in a LTR is her getting to the point where she doesn't think you are the guy she fell in love with any more......because you go AFC retrograde and or start failing sh!t tests(this happens a lot!!!)

Don't do it !!!

NEVER THINK THAT YOU CAN STOP GAME-ing YOUR LTR.

But....on the other hand ......never give it so much value that you actually take it (and her) seriously.

Be the LTR DJ !!!!

Over and Out.
 

boomerick

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
348
Reaction score
27
One more thing ....

Maybe the most important thing....

If you can't or won't walk away from it (LTR, Plate, Possesions, Job, etc)....

It (whichever one it is) owns you.....

Indifference is VERY powerful.

Over and Out.
 

AmIAFC

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
315
Reaction score
7
Age
46
I just got into a relationship with an HB7.

The trick is to treat an LTR as you would a date, because, essentially, that's what she is plus the promise of sexual exclusivity. You never put your guard down, and you never surrender the lessons you've learned from experience and from this site.

A girlfriend can and will drop you just as fast as a random date will flake out on you, for the simple reason that there is no penalty or social repercussion in doing so.

My current GF is always trying to sneak in some **** tests. Harmless, almost unnoticeable, but there. For example, this week, I had asked her what her Thursday looked like (she's always involved in helping out the community and **** like that), and she told me she was free. The next day, after I had made reservations for us at this restaurant, she texts me and asks for a reschedule, because she had forgotten that she had a meeting with the other community members at 9pm (it "slipped" her mind). I voiced my disappointment without sounding too pressed, and so, noticing my displeasure, she asked if we could have an early dinner before her meeting (her taking the frame). Now, that wasn't going to work because I had planned on ****ing her long and hard after dinner, and so I told her I'll just reschedule for another time (me taking it back). She wants to do both (short dinner and meeting), but I kept my ground.

Ever since that point, I've put her on ice. She feels something is wrong and texts/calls me about it, but I've been keeping things cold for the most part. Now, the reason I'm doing so is because I suspect that there is NO meeting and that she made that BS up to hang out with her skanky, manless girlfriends who succeed in dragging her everywhere at their convenience (if I discover this be the case, we're done). Whether that's what it is or isn't doesn't matter since I can't control her comings or goings, but whichever it is, she's going to be doing it with a level of uncertainty and questions in her mind.
 

kingsam

Master Don Juan
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
989
Reaction score
13
Location
England, baby!
AmIAFC said:
I just got into a relationship with an HB7.

The trick is to treat an LTR as you would a date, because, essentially, that's what she is plus the promise of sexual exclusivity. You never put your guard down, and you never surrender the lessons you've learned from experience and from this site.

A girlfriend can and will drop you just as fast as a random date will flake out on you, for the simple reason that there is no penalty or social repercussion in doing so.

My current GF is always trying to sneak in some **** tests. Harmless, almost unnoticeable, but there. For example, this week, I had asked her what her Thursday looked like (she's always involved in helping out the community and **** like that), and she told me she was free. The next day, after I had made reservations for us at this restaurant, she texts me and asks for a reschedule, because she had forgotten that she had a meeting with the other community members at 9pm (it "slipped" her mind). I voiced my disappointment without sounding too pressed, and so, noticing my displeasure, she asked if we could have an early dinner before her meeting (her taking the frame). Now, that wasn't going to work because I had planned on ****ing her long and hard after dinner, and so I told her I'll just reschedule for another time (me taking it back). She wants to do both (short dinner and meeting), but I kept my ground.

Ever since that point, I've put her on ice. She feels something is wrong and texts/calls me about it, but I've been keeping things cold for the most part. Now, the reason I'm doing so is because I suspect that there is NO meeting and that she made that BS up to hang out with her skanky, manless girlfriends who succeed in dragging her everywhere at their convenience (if I discover this be the case, we're done). Whether that's what it is or isn't doesn't matter since I can't control her comings or goings, but whichever it is, she's going to be doing it with a level of uncertainty and questions in her mind.
what if you were to marry her! these friends of hers will be a massive thorn in your side...!?

-------------
i forgot to add....
its always good to like them less than they like you (even if its a tiny bit)
the person who has the lower interst level has the power in the relationship! (is more indifferent)
the power of indifference is much easier to acheive if you are "aware" and not blinded by your infatuation, us enlightened guys will got turned off much more easily by wrong behaviour (so our interest drops and indifference rises) than a guy who is clueless and ignorant of the bad behaviours...etc...
 

AmIAFC

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
315
Reaction score
7
Age
46
kingsam said:
what if you were to marry her! these friends of hers will be a massive thorn in your side...!?
..
They hate me already. But I've developed a scheme to get them out of the picture in 1-2 years, assuming my GF and I stay together that long.
 

kingsam

Master Don Juan
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
989
Reaction score
13
Location
England, baby!
AmIAFC said:
They hate me already. But I've developed a scheme to get them out of the picture in 1-2 years, assuming my GF and I stay together that long.
whats the plan !
 
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
566
Reaction score
35
why would you want to create a relationship from thin air?

What is this "embarking into a relationship" shyt??? Are you that filled with a pvssified mindset???

A true relationship grows over time, it doesn't just START as a relationship like its some kind of Odyssey.............you are supposed to date many different girls at the same time, until over time, ONE of them shows you something special, and only then can you start committing time to her and only her.............but you CAN'T just force-start a relationship!!!

Plus, like I said on your other thread, a single mom is a worthless piece of irresponsible selfish crap of a woman to have anything to do with more than just using her for sex.
 

AMDG

Don Juan
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
156
Reaction score
3
game.r said:
If you are interested in eventually having a relationship and having this discussion, please respond to this post.
Well I am in a "relationship" with a girl 8 years my junior - she is smart, fit and very devoted to me ( for example I get the intimacy the way I like anytime I like, and she is always looking for new ways to please me )

It was not always like that - I searched several years for this one - but now I am content. She knows I will dump her if she misbehaves - no pedestal here. And btw - there are no "tests" - if she starts to test me I will ignore her.
 

game.r

Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
136
Reaction score
4
AMDG said:
Well I am in a "relationship" with a girl 8 years my junior - she is smart, fit and very devoted to me ( for example I get the intimacy the way I like anytime I like, and she is always looking for new ways to please me )

It was not always like that - I searched several years for this one - but now I am content. She knows I will dump her if she misbehaves - no pedestal here. And btw - there are no "tests" - if she starts to test me I will ignore her.
Ok, this is what I'm talking about. I want to discuss, guys getting to this point. I'm sure for you to get to this point, there had to be experiences that taught you how to get where you are now. Please look out for and contribute your ideas to upcoming posts.
 

game.r

Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
136
Reaction score
4
Rescue Mission said:
why would you want to create a relationship from thin air?

What is this "embarking into a relationship" shyt??? Are you that filled with a pvssified mindset???

A true relationship grows over time, it doesn't just START as a relationship like its some kind of Odyssey.............you are supposed to date many different girls at the same time, until over time, ONE of them shows you something special, and only then can you start committing time to her and only her.............but you CAN'T just force-start a relationship!!!

Plus, like I said on your other thread, a single mom is a worthless piece of irresponsible selfish crap of a woman to have anything to do with more than just using her for sex.
Thanks for your contribution.
 

Rollo Tomassi

Master Don Juan
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
5,309
Reaction score
340
Age
56
Location
Nevada
Lets get this out of the way first; Never date single mothers. By doing so you only validate and affirm the debilitating and life changing decisions that woman made long before she met you. Single mothers will swear to God and all present that they're not looking for a new daddy for their kids, but that's the distraction, not the point. By default you fill that role. Whether she was looking for it or not, you assume the parental investment liability for children you had no influence in creating, nor a choice in any decision related to them, yet bear the full responsibility for their welfare. In agreeing to date a single mother you essentially reinforce her poor decisions and assume the consequences of them on yourself.

Read Schedules of Mating for the full version of this.

Now, that said, if this is in fact the hill you choose to die on, here is the essential primer for any relationship in which you hope to maintain the frame courtesy of Roissy:

I. Never say ‘I Love You’ first

Women want to feel like they have to overcome obstacles to win a man’s heart. They crave the challenge of capturing the interest of a man who has other women competing for his attention, and eventually prevailing over his grudging reluctance to award his committed exclusivity. The man who gives his emotional world away too easily robs women of the satisfaction of earning his love. Though you may be in love with her, don’t say it before she has said it. Show compassionate restraint for her need to struggle toward yin fulfillment. Inspire her to take the leap for you, and she’ll return the favor a thousandfold.

II. Make her jealous

Flirt with other women in front of her. Do not dissuade other women from flirting with you. Women will never admit this but jealousy excites them. The thought of you turning on another woman will arouse her sexually. No girl wants a man that no other woman wants. The partner who harnesses the gale storm of jealousy controls the direction of the relationship.

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

IV. Don’t play by her rules

If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.

V. Adhere to the golden ratio

Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out. Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less. The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas. Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.

VI. Keep her guessing

True to their inscrutable natures, women ask questions they don’t really want direct answers to. Woe be the man who plays it straight — his fate is the suffering of the beta. Evade, tease, obfuscate. She thrives when she has to imagine what you’re thinking about her, and withers when she knows exactly how you feel. A woman may want financial and family security, but she does not want passion security. In the same manner, when she has displeased you, punish swiftly, but when she has done you right, reward slowly. Reward her good behavior intermittently and unpredictably and she will never tire of working hard to please you.

VII. Always keep two in the kitty

Never allow yourself to be a “kept man”. A man with options is a man without need. It builds confidence and encourages boldness with women if there is another woman, a safety net, to catch you in case you slip and risk a breakup, divorce, or a lost prospect, leading to loneliness and a grinding dry spell. A woman knows once she has slept with a man she has abdicated a measure of her power; when she has fallen in love with him she has surrendered nearly all of it. But love is ephemeral and with time she may rediscover her power and threaten to leave you. It is her final trump card. Withdrawing all her love and all her body in an instant will rend your soul if you are faced with contemplating the empty abyss alone. Knowing there is another you can turn to for affection will fortify your will and satisfy your manhood.

VIII. Say you’re sorry only when absolutely necessary

Do not say you’re sorry for every wrong thing you do. It is a posture of submission that no man should reflexively adopt, no matter how alpha he is. Apologizing increases the demand for more apologies. She will come to expect your contrition, like a cat expects its meal at a set time each day. And then your value will lower in her eyes. Instead, if you have done something wrong, you should acknowledge your guilt in a glancing way without resorting to the actual words “I’m sorry.” Pull the Bill Clinton maneuver and say “Mistakes were made” or tell her you “feel bad” about what you did. You are granted two freebie “I’m sorry”s for the life of your relationship; use them wisely.

IX. Connect with her emotions

Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendevous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no need to finish thoughts or draw conclusions. There is only need to EXPERIENCE. You’re grabbing her hand and running with her down an infinite, labyrinthine alleyway with no end, laughing and letting your fingers glide on the cobblestone walls along the way.

X. Ignore her beauty

The man who trains his mind to subdue the reward centers of his brain when reflecting upon a beautiful female face will magically transform his interactions with women. His apprehension and self-consciousness will melt away, paving the path for more honest and self-possessed interactions with the objects of his desire. This is one reason why the greatest lotharios drown in more love than they can handle — through positive experiences with so many beautiful women they lose their awe of beauty and, in turn, their powerlessness under its spell. It will help you acquire the right frame of mind to stop using the words hot, cute, gorgeous, or beautiful to describe girls who turn you on. Instead, say to yourself “she’s interesting” or “she might be worth getting to know”. Never compliment a girl on her looks, especially not a girl you aren’t ƒucking. Turn off that part of your brain that wants to put them on pedestals. Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women (try to avoid sleeping with a lot of ugly women if you don’t want to regress). Soon, a Jedi lover you will be.

XI. Be irrationally self-confident

No matter what your station in life, stride through the world without apology or excuse. It does not matter if objectively you are not the best man a woman can get; what matters is that you think and act like you are. Women have a dog’s instinct for uncovering weakness in men; don’t make it easy for them. Self-confidence, warranted or not, triggers submissive emotional responses in women. Irrational self-confidence will get you more pussie than rational defeatism.

XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses

In the betterment of ourselves as men we attract women into our orbit. To accomplish this gravitational pull as painlessly and efficiently as possible, you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester, don’t waste time and energy trying to raise your status in philosophical debate. If you write well but dance poorly, don’t kill yourself trying to expand your manly influence on the dancefloor. Your goal should be to attract women effortlessly, so play to your strengths no matter what they are; there is a groupie for every male endeavor. Except World of Warcraft.
 

Rollo Tomassi

Master Don Juan
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
5,309
Reaction score
340
Age
56
Location
Nevada
XIII. Err on the side of too much boldness, rather than too little

Touching a woman inappropriately on the first date will get you further with her than not touching her at all. Don’t let a woman’s faux indignation at your boldness sway you; they secretly love it when a man aggressively pursues what he wants and makes his sexual intentions known. You don’t have to be an A-hole, but if you have no choice, being an inconsiderate A-Hole beats being a polite beta, every time.

XIV. ƒuck her good

ƒuck her like it’s your last ƒuck. And hers. ƒuck her so good, so hard, so wantonly, so profligately that she is left a quivering, sparking mass of shaking flesh and sex fluids. Drain her of everything, then drain her some more. Kiss her all over, make love to her all night, and hold her close in the morning. Own her body, own her gratitude, own her love. If you don’t know how, learn to give her squirting orgasms.

XV. Maintain your state control

You are an oak tree. You will not be manipulated by crying, yelling, lying, head games, sexual withdrawal, jealousy ploys, pity plays, sh!t tests, hot/cold/hot/cold, disappearing acts, or guilt trips. She will rain and thunder all around you and you will shelter her until her storm passes. She will not drag you into her chaos or uproot you. When you have mastery over yourself, you will have mastery over her.

XVI. Never be afraid to lose her

You must not fear. Fear is the love-killer. Fear is the ego-triumph that brings abject loneliness. You will face your fear. You will permit it to pass over and through you. And when your ego-fear is gone you will turn and face your lover, and only your heart will remain. You will walk away from her when she has violated your integrity, and you will let her walk when her heart is closed to you. She who can destroy you, controls you. Don’t give her that power over yourself. Love yourself before you love her.
 

game.r

Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
136
Reaction score
4
Ah, the Sixteen Commandments of Poon! Really Good Stuff.
 

zekko

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
16,062
Reaction score
8,902
Regarding the "16 Commandments of Poon" posted by Rollo, I pretty much agree with them except I have some issues with the ones listed below. They all remind me more of things you would do in the early dating phase instead of during a quality relationship:

II. Make her jealous
Flirt with other women in front of her.
This just strikes me as plain rude, and head games. I don't put up with her playing this game with me so it's only fair I don't play it back. I know she DOES like it when some girl flirts me with me or checks me out, but it's another thing entirely for me to initiate it. That would be very disrespectful. I wouldn't tolerate it from her so I'm not going to model that behavior.

For me to openly flirt with women in front of her would be basically the same thing as telling her it's okay for her to flirt with men in front of me. Not happening.

V. Adhere to the golden ratio
Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you.
I see the rationale behind this but honestly I just can't be bothered with it. Who the heck keeps track of who gives who more to the point of breaking it down into percentages? Don't give her more than she gives you and that should be good enough.

VII. Always keep two in the kitty
Never allow yourself to be a “kept man”. A man with options is a man without need.
I'm not even sure what this means. This sounds like spinning plates while you're in an exclusive relationship. I don't know how that is even supposed to work, unless you're a cheater (and I know some guys here are) - then I guess it makes sense.

That is what I think based on my current LTR, which is the best relationship I've ever had. Mainly because she is a quality girl and she appreciates me. With a lesser quality relationship, where there is more doubt about the outcome, maybe the above three might apply more.

One thing I would add is when you're in a LTR, you should always maintain the attitude that it could end at any time, and be ready for that eventuality. Once you've been through a few breakups, you know you can live through them, and that most things don't last forever. When you come from this place of strength it helps you keep the frame. I'm not with her because I NEED to be, I'm with her because today I CHOOSE to be.
 

game.r

Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
136
Reaction score
4
@ zekko. The Sixteen Commandments of Poon were written by a guy call Roissy. I read them some time ago. I agree with you that most of them seem like stuff you would need early in a relationship, but like Rollo said they are a good starting point. In fact if you just follow them and nothing else you will be in a really good place. Definitely helped me get my head in the right place. Every now and then i like to re-read them.

The last two paragraphs of your post are gold imo. I'd like to also add that there is nothing better for you as a man than to dump a girl on principle and move on from that relationship. I've done it a few times, simple because after a while in the relationship i saw things that i knew i could not deal with long term. It is immensely empowering to be the dumper instead of the dumped, especially when after some time they try to get back with you.
 

lorekeeper

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
252
Reaction score
4
Age
45
game.r

wanted to post yesterday but hit my 10 post limit.

I'm very interested in this topic, will be looking out for more, at this point I have no clue how to act/react and it's bothering me a bit. I would like to become exclusive, but haven't done anything about it. we havent even gone out for a few weeks. I'd like to get thoughts onto progressing into a relationship, as I havn't done it before.
 

pipe007

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
638
Reaction score
52
to the OP
the 16 commands are really a great place to begin.
in short

YOU WILL ONLY GET INTO A RELATIONSHIP WITH A GIRL WHO HAS SEEN YOUR AUTHORITY AND ACCEPTED TO SUBMIT TO YOUR LEADERSHIP. WHICH PUTS YOU AS THE MAN IN THE RELATIONSHIP WHO HOLDS THE FRAME AND SHE ADMIRES AND RESPECTS WITH "LOVE" AND ENDLESS DISPLAYS OF AFFECTION

other than that, you are in for big trouble young man.

it also seems to me that you already read this commands before since you just wrote that you read them and read them every now and then...

therefore, it seems that you already know the answer to your question, you should only trust what you know and believe it to be the truth, and apply it in your own life

good luck
 
Top