Recommendation: "What the BLEEP Do We Know?"

[aBAzLLnA]

What surprises me is the close-mindedness here. It isn't even about whether or not it's BS or not, but maybe the consideration that it might exist? Have those of you who believe it to be BS even thought about it being true?

I'm not trying to persuade any of you into changing your minds, but I mean, movies like this are supposed to be thought-provoking, make you think about what is going on, or what isn't going on. Personally, all that "BS" intrigues me and most of it makes sense (except for the whole Indian thing...).

The beautiful thing about this movie is that they incorporate science with spirituality. This is something I believe needs to be done. I'm an ex-physics major and the quantum physics application really resonated with me. In my mind, if that's how it works in the quantum level, there's no reason why it shouldn't be reproduced in a macro level.

 

[stevera004]

What surprises me is the close-mindedness here. It isn't even about whether or not it's BS or not, but maybe the consideration that it might exist? Have those of you who believe it to be BS even thought about it being true?

I'm not trying to persuade any of you into changing your minds, but I mean, movies like this are supposed to be thought-provoking, make you think about what is going on, or what isn't going on. Personally, all that "BS" intrigues me and most of it makes sense (except for the whole Indian thing...).

The beautiful thing about this movie is that they incorporate science with spirituality. This is something I believe needs to be done. I'm an ex-physics major and the quantum physics application really resonated with me. In my mind, if that's how it works in the quantum level, there's no reason why it shouldn't be reproduced in a macro level.

When presented with evidence, I will believe absolutely anything. This movie is the worst pseudo-scientific junk nonsense. Their claims are either unfalsiable or plainly wrong.

Does the water changes form based on what is written on the jar make sense to you?

Does the JZ Knight (the doped up puffy blonde chick) claiming to be a 35,000 year old warrior god (Ramtha) resonate with you?

Does the fact that nearly the entire cast and crew are members of the Ramtha cult make sense to you?


This nonsense is Pablum for simple minded and weak people who lack meaning in their own lives and are desperately hoping for someone to make sense of it for them.

 

[aBAzLLnA]

The water and the crystals is the belief that thought has power, and yes I believe that thought does have power. I can't prove it, but can you prove there's God? I'm not gonna get into that whole religious debate now, but why are you looking at the people who are in the movie? I'm wondering why you don't think the overall message of the movie is plausible?

If believing in that stuff makes me simple minded, and weak, then I'm simple minded and weak. However, it doesn't supply meaning for people's lives at all, it gives them a different perspective.

 

[stevera004]

The water and the crystals is the belief that thought has power, and yes I believe that thought does have power.

The 'water and crystals' is not a belief, it is a specific experiement that they claim to have run to show the effect (ie. write good stuff on a bottle of water and get nice water, write bad stuff on a bottle of water and get bad stuff). Unfortunately, no one else has ever seen the effect, and when offered $1 Million to show this result in a true scientific (that is, double blind test) these fakers refused.

Fakers and liars who profit off the gullibility of others; that's a good summary for this film and these hoaxers.

 

[aBAzLLnA]

Fakers and liars who profit off the gullibility of others; that's a good summary for this film and these hoaxers.

Well, I don't agree. It might be for pure profit, then again it might not be. Again, I believe it was made to make people think out of the box for once. If you believe in what you say, then I could also make the argument that the Christian religion are full of fakers and liars.

 

[whistler]

Fakers and liars who profit off the gullibility of others; that's a good summary for this film and these hoaxers.

For sure. No one with a PhD would have faith in results from a poor design. Then again, Emoto's doctorate is from a correspondence school for alternative medicine. I have nothing against alt medicine per se, but he either has no clue about proper methods or is willfully deceptive. Anyone in the film who doesn't caution viewers against Emoto's results should be considered clueless or a co-conspirator.

 

[SELF-MASTERY]

I hated this movie, but here are the few merits I will give it:

1) Yes what we tell ourselves is important, and does have an effect on how we perceive the world.

2) Perception is everything--- almost

3) self-acceptance is vital to a healthy personal ecology


All of the above can be learned from several different sources, and 'what the bleep' is a very poor source.

Nothing is wrong with organized religion; it doesnt take responsibility away from true seekers of knowledge.

 

[A-Unit]

Re:

My points exactly, aBazLLna.

What's up with the close-mindedness?

Does the water-crystal experiment throw off everything else mentioned?

I caught no sniff of religion, or even thought that can be misconstrued as RELIGION. In fact, I believe Da Vinci Code caught more criticism, and also captured more followers as a "belief system" than What The Bleep.

In my opinion, all the flick did was pose questions, based (hopefully) on scientific fact. And what if, just WHAT IF that woman isn't crazy and we are for not believing? I personally haven't done all much research into Ramtha, except for visiting the site, but I honestly can't DIS-believe everything because it doesn't fit my finite realm of logic, which might be wrong more than anything anyways.

People "say" they believe in aliens, but I truly believe that they exist. Almost daily there's information on contact, sightings, on occurences, or abductions, but few if none at all is EVER mentioned in mainstream news. Does that mean aliens don't exist?

Our senses + logic enable us to perceive existence before us, at least we hope so. But as the USER of these tools, and since those TOOLS are the only means of judging how effective these tools are at perceiving reality, we're already partially biased and mislead. You can't totally divorce the observer from the user of the tools and still judge the experience.

For me, it wasn't that it erased old religious beliefs, but calls into question, NEW QUESTIONS. Just like the DJ bible, or learning ANYTHING new about women. The leap from AFC to DJ is very small when considering topics like spirituality and mysticism and religion. Yet, day after day, a guy awakens to a reality HE NEVER KNEW existed, but was right before his nose. Does the fact that we're not PERCEIVING reality preclude the possibility that it does not exist?

Scientists for decades have been doing research on Paranormal occurrences, using observations and theories from TV waves and Radio waves as their basis. Essentially what is purported by Scientists is that the "afterlife" as they claim it to be is another frequency, once that our supposedly physical existence can't see or feel or totally communicate with regularly. This is likened to radio and tv waves, as they travel at a different frequency but become visible via another means. Scientists are effectively told NOT to study this, or even conduct such work, because it would totally dissolve the pedgagocial temple of science as we know it.

Every person should evaluate everything in life as it relates to their own existence and evolution. However, judge the merit of the information, and not always the provider of said information.

Having read all the whacky books I have and discussed all the beautifully crazy things I have, has been MORE valuable then the mainstream think tank crap. But that's my cents.



A-Unit

 

[brucevangeorge]

Scientists for decades have been doing research on Paranormal occurrences, using observations and theories from TV waves and Radio waves as their basis. Essentially what is purported by Scientists is that the "afterlife" as they claim it to be is another frequency, once that our supposedly physical existence can't see or feel or totally communicate with regularly. This is likened to radio and tv waves, as they travel at a different frequency but become visible via another means. Scientists are effectively told NOT to study this, or even conduct such work, because it would totally dissolve the pedgagocial temple of science as we know it.

Maybe its a waste of time because of our primitive technology.

 

[stevera004]

My points exactly, aBazLLna.

What's up with the close-mindedness?

If I told you the world was flat, would you agree? Just to show you're open minded?

Does the water-crystal experiment throw off everything else mentioned?

The water crystal experiment makes people suspicious. They claim to see results that no one else does. Why should we believe them? Why can't we see this effect for ourselves? And if it "isn't a big deal" why mention it at all? It is to give a veneer of scientific respectability to this nonsense.

I caught no sniff of religion, or even thought that can be misconstrued as RELIGION. In fact, I believe Da Vinci Code caught more criticism, and also captured more followers as a "belief system" than What The Bleep.

Religion is anything outside the realm of science, containing a specific belief system. Thus, New Age (which is what WTB is about) is a religion.

In my opinion, all the flick did was pose questions, based (hopefully) on scientific fact.

Why hopefully? It is either scientific fact or not. There is no hope in science; there is lots of hope in religion however.

And what if, just WHAT IF that woman isn't crazy and we are for not believing? I personally haven't done all much research into Ramtha, except for visiting the site, but I honestly can't DIS-believe everything because it doesn't fit my finite realm of logic, which might be wrong more than anything anyways.

Do you believe there are little green men in my cupboards? If not, why? Is it just outside your puny abilitiies of logic ?

People "say" they believe in aliens, but I truly believe that they exist. Almost daily there's information on contact, sightings, on occurences, or abductions, but few if none at all is EVER mentioned in mainstream news. Does that mean aliens don't exist?

What do aliens have to do with WTB? Is it because the same sort of weak people who believe WTB also believe in aliens?

 

[belividere]

It isn't close-mindedness that made me shut down this video. It was bad science and the feeling that the video was produced to indoctrinate people into something. Its not being close-minded it's being skeptical.

Think of it this way A-unit. I know that you are ahead of the curve on financial issues. If I go out tomorrow and buy some infomercial get rich quick tapes or go to a seminar that is a pyramid scheme and come on the board talking about how great and life-changing it was would you step in and say sorry thats bul****?

This film reminds me of the raelians (sp?) who claimed to have cloned a human a few years back. These people were obviously nuts and believe in some off the wall ideas that have there basis in flawed science. Similar to ID but I dont want to go there in this thread.

If any of you guys have access to journals there is an interesting editorial in this months Nature about this exact subject. Only a couple of pages and worth a read if you are interested.

 

[A-Unit]

Re:

Religion is anything outside the realm of science, containing a specific belief system. Thus, New Age (which is what WTB is about) is a religion.

So the world is absolute?
It's science or it's religion?

I Personally do not believe this. I do not have one final say on what THIS is. On what life is, or what death, if it is even DEATH as we are taught what it is.

The only thing we know of death is that we no longer exist intact with our body. THAT's it. If someone came back from near death, few people would buy that. We don't know if it's death, or if life is what we know it to be. Every guy on this site probably has a different view of what death is and what it means, and in a backwards way, that drives their life philosophy, either consciously or unconsciously. People operate THAT way though, with conscious understanding of their life philosophy. It's only to they encounter positive or negative feedback do they awaken to that reality.

I would hardly call it New Age. But that's the "problem" with labels. If you go to a bookstore to find it, it'd be in New Age, or Spirituality. But how can it be labeled, when every perspective is different. Not to mention, it's a melding of ALL things, from science, to religion, to physics, to astrology.

I simply fail to see how anyone, including myself, can be perfectly RIGHT or WRONG this. Even, people question the basis of Jesus and God. Not to say he wasn't real, but to say his message, his existence was/is different than was taught. The motives? My guess and your guess are good enough. That truth wouldn't be available til we pass, and maybe longer.

Point is, I was raised and confirmed as a catholic, but I've read other added pieces to it. There are those who believe in Jesus as he was, but not as prescribed by the Catholic Church. Does that negate the Christ Jesus or just the definition as we know it by the Church? If it's your soul, I'm not willing to buy anything, lock, stock and barrel, and that's why the movie is just one of MANY resources/sources for existential thinking.

My other thought is...if not WTB, then what? The good Book? Any book? Or are we mere bones and dust, meant to return? Do we not have a divine spark, a sense of consciousness, yet we can't LOCATE that spot to find the conscious source?

---------------------------------

The water crystal experiment makes people suspicious. They claim to see results that no one else does. Why should we believe them? Why can't we see this effect for ourselves? And if it "isn't a big deal" why mention it at all? It is to give a veneer of scientific respectability to this nonsense.

You can't see the experiment yourself because you can't see Water Crystals with the naked eye. You need a specific microscope, which he mentions in the book and movie. I forget the name, but if you check online, you can find it.

Water was used because it's part of EVERYTHING. There are effects to plants, that's been documented, based on how you speak to them. And animals don't know english, or spanish, but understand tone, which is precipitator to 'VIBRATION' or 'WAVES', which would hold similar to water crystal. Even babies and young kids get your mood. That much you can FEEL, even before you speak.

So to me, having been with animals, plants, and even kids, such things aren't OUT of my realm of reality. Everything truly is a vibration, since all pieces of existence are merely a motion of atoms, electron, protons, and neutrons. Nothing in our body sits. The only time it SITS is at death, when it stops moving. Other than that, the body constantly movies, or vibrates, at a wavelength our eyes/mind are tuned into.

So is it that hard of step/leap to get to the effect on water?

----------------------------------

My feeling is, people are perceiving this as a means of breaking religion to pieces. Or just being more new age hocus pocus. Several TRUE stories about Jesus have been presented and lead to more thoughts about that.

These are "my" thoughts as well as what I've read. I get criticized by super religious zealots and good girls for "not being a good catholic." Which I admit, I'm not. But I am good to "my soul/spirit" since I take care of feeding it, nourishing it, trying to be good, value-centered, lack the ego that most latch on to, and I pay heed to the different religions, spiritual information, and mysticism. There's ALOT of new agism that's hokey, fake, or just draining on the money.

But the MINUTE you shut down any potential with a NEW line of thinking, is the MINUTE you preclude its ability to work. We know day in day out that MOST noobs shut down how this works, over think it, or try to concoct their own system, which is only based on AFC parameters anyways, which is why you have to occasionally venture beyond yourself for truth, since the position you hail from is contaminated for the moment.



A-Unit

 

[belividere]

Everything truly is a vibration, since all pieces of existence are merely a motion of atoms, electron, protons, and neutrons. Nothing in our body sits. The only time it SITS is at death, when it stops moving. Other than that, the body constantly movies, or vibrates, at a wavelength our eyes/mind are tuned into.

Molecules and atoms (as well as there sub-atomic constituents) do not move at vibrations that are a function of the body. They continue to dance around after the body is dead. Their collective function ceases to exist but that does not make them "dead" in a sense. Elements, molecules, and quantum constituents follow the conservation of matter. They do not die off when we die.

Water is not greatly affected by sound (transverse waves with little pressure) because the thermodynamic forces it must obey are of greater magnitude and thus importance. Water doesn't exist in a glass as single solitude H2O molecules it forms a web from interactions with other water molecules. These interactions dictate the formation of ice. This is why ice is one of the few solids that is denser than its liquid counterparts. If you flash freeze water it will show up in a form much different than a slow steady freeze because the molecules will be allowed time to order in the way that is thermodynamically favorable. If you did freeze it quick you would have ice in a more liquid like state.

As for quantum coherence in brain tissue. If you study any quantum system proposed by physicists it is done near absolute zero, in vacuum, or in both. Things tunnel frequently at room temp or slightly higher but these effects decrease dramatically with increased seperation. The effects of a particle on a seperate distint particle can be seen in a vacuum system. A warm gooey brain that is home to billions and trillions of molecules is not likely a quantum system. The level of noise, or interference, from the other molecules is too high. As such decoding the system would be to difficult and in the long run a severe disadvantage over a classical model of the brain relying on diffusion of electrochemical gradients and physically gated channels.

These things are not that abstract that often. They follow strict laws and have inherent logical order. To me that is more beautiful than some fluffy self-absorbed **** about how matter doesnt exist without us.

All this on a site focused on women. Damn, didn't ever see the day that would happen.

 

[belividere]

My feeling is, people are perceiving this as a means of breaking religion to pieces. Or just being more new age hocus pocus.

I could care less about religion and dont want this thread to get on that. My problem lies with the reverse situation in these cases. Zealots using science to advance their false claims. New-age snake oil for the soul kinds of bullsh1t. I know of very few, if any, scientists who let religion stand in front of their work. A couple with believes against stem cells but none in the physical sciences or engineering. Ethical issues yes, environmental issues of course, not religious. Scientist dont spend hours each day trying to disprove religions, but many religions do the opposite.

 

[stevera004]

So the world is absolute?
It's science or it's religion?
A-Unit

If something isn't proveable (actually, if something isn't disprovable) then it is not science. It then relies on faith, aka religion.

I would hardly call it New Age. But that's the "problem" with labels. If you go to a bookstore to find it, it'd be in New Age, or Spirituality. But how can it be labeled, when every perspective is different. Not to mention, it's a melding of ALL things, from science, to religion, to physics, to astrology.
A-Unit

Yes, that is the New Age claims. Just don't drag science into this, as there is nothing scientific about it. Astrology isn't science and nothing presented in WTB was science either. See earlier in the thread for references.

My other thought is...if not WTB, then what? The good Book? Any book? Or are we mere bones and dust, meant to return? Do we not have a divine spark, a sense of consciousness, yet we can't LOCATE that spot to find the conscious source?
A-Unit

Like has been suggested many times, if you are sincerely interested in the questions of consciousness from a truly scientific perspective and how it ties into quantum mechanics, computer science, chaos theory etc. you could do well to read Roger Penrose (Emperor's New Mind). This is serious science for the layman; but it's dense reading.

You can't see the experiment yourself because you can't see Water Crystals with the naked eye. You need a specific microscope, which he mentions in the book and movie. I forget the name, but if you check online, you can find it.
A-Unit

Please read more about water crystals. It is nonsense. This water crystal gentleman has been offered $1 million if he can replicate his results in front of other people. Surprise, surprise, he hasn't taken up the offer. I wonder if he ever will (doubtful since this is hocus pocus nonsense, but we'll see).

So is it that hard of step/leap to get to the effect on water?
A-Unit

Look, if you believe, then you believe. But it is purely a leap of faith (ahh, Kierkegaard where are you when we need you most). There is no scientific basis whatsoever to water crystals and no effect as described in the movie has ever been observed by neutral experimenters (i.e. people not paid by the Ramtha movement).

There's ALOT of new agism that's hokey, fake, or just draining on the money.
A-Unit

Right, and how is WTB different? Why is WTB New Age that is somehow not hokey, fake, etc.?

Look, I know people are desperately searching for meaning in their lives. It's because people want to believe, desperately, in anything, that frauds like Ramtha can appear on the scene and be taken seriously.

That's all on this topic for me.

 

[DarkLight]

Cast and thier Credentials:

David Albert:a philosopher of physics and professor at Columbia University

Amit Goswami, Ph.D.: Author of "The Self-Aware Universe: How Consciousness Creates the Material World

John Hagelin was the head of the 1993 Transcendental Meditation project in Washington, D.C., He is chairman of the Physics Department at Maharishi International University in Fairfield, Iowa.

Stuart Hameroff, an anesthesiologist, author, and associate director of the Center for Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona. He has worked with Oxford mathematician Roger Penrose, on a speculative quantum theory of consciousness.

JZ Knight/Ramtha:she claims to channel, is "a 35,000 year-old warrior spirit from the lost continent of Lemuria and one of the Ascended Masters

Andrew Newberg, Hospital at the University of Pennsylvania assistant professor of radiology, and physician in nuclear medicine. He is coauthor of the book, Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science & the Biology of Belief

Candace Pert: Author of the book Molecules of Emotion

Fred Alan Wolf, Ph.D recently wrote The Yoga of Time Travel: How the Mind Can Defeat Time

Miceal Ledwith, author and former professor of theology at Maynooth College in Ireland

Daniel Monti, physician and director of the Mind-Body Medicine Program at Thomas Jefferson University

William Tiller, Professor Emeritus of Material Science and Engineering at Stanford University, and author of over 250 scientific publications.
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Now These are some heavy hitters! To not consider the ideas of such individuals who's lives have literally been dedicated in their respective fields, and have earned and accelerated to the levels of their positions... is absolutely foolish to me.

By no means am I suggesting you accept their word "as gospel." I'll be the last one in here, stuffing sh!t down your throat as our world's religions have done, since we popped out. I would definetly reccomend you lend an open ear/mind to these people and their expressed thoughts on such matters their lives work are dedicated to though. Think about it... there not in the positions they're in... cause they ignorant. Can't really bluff the level of understanding it takes to be parallel and congruent with the rest of the unfolding envelope of science, in today's world. Maybe that book report in 5th grade... but not the cusp of quantum physics, nature of reality in regards to conciousness, etc.

To slight them as a bunch of new-age crooks is beyond ridiculous to me. If they wanted to hustle a few heads into their perspective, why are they dedicating their time in research, studies, and universities. Wouldn't a position in the clergy be a more model position for such brainwashing thievery?!

And in regards to the whole influencing of water molecule debate. If all those who can't see a relation of energy influencing energy... then let me pose you this question. Which would you rather drink? A bottle of water held by an enlightened tibetan monk, meditating his heart and prayers into your water, or a Homeless man, filthy, depressed and utterly bitter at the world cursing your bottle of water for how much lifes fvcked him over?

Personally I'd go for the monk's.

Energy influences all other forms of energy, bottom line!

Now to be fair to my intelligence... I see your point about the million dollar challenge, and how the man didn't accept. Could be a point there. As well as mentioned earlier, those pictures were taken of one ice molecule out of a field of millions. He could have selected asymetrical beautiful ones, vs. the contrary to prove his theory. Great point... might be the case.

But... I still have to give credit and credence, and would choose the prayer water. Due to everyones common knowledge here, of energy and its undeniable influence on other energy.

Bottom line here... The movie wasn't the end all cusp of the ideas in the field they were trying to promote. I don't think A-Unit is trying to push that point either. BUT... the case here is... that is was a quite well made documentary on some of the new ideas in the field, and their relation to a human beings, well being. Was it hokey... hell yes. Did it have some interesting perspectives... absolutelly.

SuaveOn'
-DarkLight-

P.S. Never thought I'd see the name OSHO in here, lol. SOLID! Anyone who's down w. the buddha of buddhas gets my nod. Homey was outlawed from 22 countries... LMAO. My type of guru!

 

[stevera004]

Cast and thier Credentials:

David Albert:a philosopher of physics and professor at Columbia University=/QUOTE]

David Albert has said that the film misinterpreted his views completely, that the he made this clear to the producers, but they went ahead and used his name nonetheless. He considers it a mistake to have ever been filmed by these people. Please read the link I included earlier.

 

[Morphiex]

I saw the movie and i thought it was interesting...
ofcourse i dont think some of the THEORY to be quite realistic , btu sciene is about thinking outside the box.
The only thing i found to be reliable and possibly a good theory was that the mind has greater control over our body and emotions then we think.
that if we feel a certain way alot of time we automaticly are more open to feel that same way more often then other ways...

the theory of the indians and the boat , was totally stupid. the hole idea of something not existing to us just because we dont understand it , is just a fast explanation to something we dont understand.

the hole ice crystal things , i dont know i dont think emotions have as great power as soem people say. but still we cant say for certain that it DOESNT have any effect.

 

[whistler]

Now These are some heavy hitters! To not consider the ideas of such individuals who's lives have literally been dedicated in their respective fields, and have earned and accelerated to the levels of their positions... is absolutely foolish to me.

By no means am I suggesting you accept their word "as gospel." I'll be the last one in here, stuffing sh!t down your throat as our world's religions have done, since we popped out. I would definetly reccomend you lend an open ear/mind to these people and their expressed thoughts on such matters their lives work are dedicated to though. Think about it... there not in the positions they're in... cause they ignorant. Can't really bluff the level of understanding it takes to be parallel and congruent with the rest of the unfolding envelope of science, in today's world. Maybe that book report in 5th grade... but not the cusp of quantum physics, nature of reality in regards to conciousness, etc.

To slight them as a bunch of new-age crooks is beyond ridiculous to me. If they wanted to hustle a few heads into their perspective, why are they dedicating their time in research, studies, and universities. Wouldn't a position in the clergy be a more model position for such brainwashing thievery?!

...

A. My work is teeming with PhD's. Some are as sharp as a tack; some have just enough inertia to earn a doctorate before chasing their dreams in isolation. The latter seem unable to abandon or adapt their explanations in the face of solid contradictory evidence. Thus... they never become actual scientists and (appropriately) receive no professional respect.

B. The views in the movie weren't necessarily faithful to the "experts'" opinions. See Steve's last comment...

The movie belongs beside The Matrix on your bookshelf.

 

[Yotsuya-san]

The movie belongs beside The Matrix on your bookshelf.

If you say so! Like the Matrix, it's for people who want flashy "sci-fi stuff" without bothering with all the science.
I blame The Matrix Trilogy for this whole hipster pseudo intellectual trend mostly among Gen X or Y. They don't have the aptidude or patience for REAL science so they go off on metaphysics, mysticism, trying to pose like they grok Tibetan Buddhism, I Ching, and whatever just so they can wank off like they're all deep.

I'll stick to Stephen Hawkings A Brief History of Time and Carl Sagan's Cosmos right next Doctor Who/Trek/2001 a space Odyssey on MY bookshelf.