Rebuilding attraction and going from FWB to LTR

[bloodhound]

hey guys!

Been lurking around these boards for quite some time now and was wondering if I could get some advice on a tricky situation I'm in at the moment.

So my dilemma concerns this girl (Girl 1) I met a while ago (3 months to be exact) at a party. I wasn't particularly keen on her initially as it was her friend (Girl 2) that I had the hots for, so I made no effort (unintentionally) to interact with Girl 1 that night. I suppose being aloof must've worked somehow (even though it wasn't by design), as she asked for my number and was literally tailing me the whole night.

In a nutshell, I completely failed in my pursuit for Girl 2 as I was too eager/forward, which Girl 1 also found out as they are flatmates. Weeks later, Girl 1 contacts me out of the blue and asks me out for drinks. I didn't think much about it at the time and agreed, but we had a great time and I found myself increasingly attracted to her.

Since then, she has been texting me everyday. I realised I made a huge rookie mistake with Girl 2 by telling her I liked her outright and blatantly chasing her, so I decided to switch things up and keep it casual with Girl 1. For instance, I made it a point to NEVER initiate texts or converse with her via texts so as to not seem eager or desperate. I would also keep myself busy and switch my phone off to stop myself from responding the instant she replies. While she would respond almost instantaenously whenever I reply, I tried to be as unpredictable as possible by replying either a few hours later or within minutes. At the same time, I forced myself to limit the length of my texts and convey value as much as I possibly could. For example, she has a tendency to send me blocks of texts and I'll normally respond with something short and witty. The texting ratio at that time was probably 100% (Her): 0% (Me). More importantly though, I NEVER made my intentions known nor did I ever communicate a high level of interest to her whether through text or in person. I think I do go a bit too far sometimes as I go out of my way to pretend I don't care about her, as she even complained that I don't respect or give a **** about her. I'm also incredibly coy when she asks me questions about myself in an effort to be as mysterious as possible, and she gets frustrated when I don't tell her anything about me which is a good thing I guess (and funny!). Used to be the definition of a nice guy in the past in that I would bend over backwards for any girl that I liked, but with this girl I asserted myself much more and got her to do things for me instead. Above all else, I never compromised my dignity or integrity by being needy. Even though I was deep down under, I've always held myself back from texting her first, not to mention the fact that she is ALWAYS the last to text me.

Long story short, it got to a point where we were 'hanging out' every weekend at her place and she was clearly trying to seduce me (she admitted it). I eventually escalated things with her physically and every meet up was essentially a kissing/make-out session. It took a while for me to take it to the next level (roughly 3 weeks later) as I was a virgin and was really worried about disappointing her in the bedroom. My worst fears were confirmed nonetheless, as I was terrible (performance anxiety and what not) when it finally happened, not once, but twice! The only thing that kept it from being a complete disaster was that I was still able to make her *** on multiple occasions. Notwithstanding the crappy sex, we were pretty intimate around each other as there was a good amount of cuddling/touching/kissing/handjobs. Another thing she made very clear to me was that we're not in a relationship (as she recently just got out of one), and that we are just friends with benefits. I was a little taken aback by that but I didn't react to it, NOR did I make it known to her that it got to me. If anything, I tried to dismiss it as one of those **** tests, resisted the urge to ask her why, and played along while continuing to feign indifference to everything she says on the subject. The key thing I learnt was to not let anything she says affect me, but rather, to judge her by her actions as she was always intimate with me privately (we even held hands in public at one point). She's asked me whether I 'like' her a few times before, to which i always respond with either something off topic, random or 'nope' (her reaction is tough to read though).

Things were 'fine' up until last week when she met another girl (she's Bi), who she's been communicating with non-stop since. As expected, her interest level suddenly dropped smf she was evidently not as affectionate as she was before. In addition, I'm slowly taking a backseat to this girl in her priorities as she haven't met up as much this week (I almost feel like a second option to this girl). The texting has also tapered off a bit as I no longer get them daily, but I stood firm and did not budge from my 'never chase/initiate first' rule, even though at times I felt like I was losing my grip on her.I guess it's still working as the content of her texts hasn't changed, just the frequency, but the enthusiasm is definitely not the same as it was before. With that being said, I continue to keep it casual and witty in my banter with her over text as much as I can, so my behaviour to her has been consistent throughout.

I should add that we were hooking up almost every weekend (and every other weeknight) prior to this so I might have been guilty of becoming too available for her. As much as I have pretended to be aloof all this time, I have never once said no to meeting up with her, such that I am technically at her beck and call. The silver lining however, is that she has yet to really experience what it's like without me around, so I can still play that card if push comes to shove.

Would really mean alot if you guys could share your insights with me on the following 3 questions:

1. Based on the description above, do I have a shot at converting this FWB arrangement into an LTR?

2. Is the crappy sex a dealbreaker? The intimacy was strong at one point, but have I ****ed it up for good by being a crappy lay? Until I get my act together, does the fact that I can still give her orgasms matter?

3. With this new girl in the picture, should I:
a.) Continue to do what I'm doing in a passive aggressive way
b.) Back off completely/freeze her out for at least a week

4. Is inaction or action more advisable as the next course of action at this stage? People have been telling me that my lack of initiative in terms of reaching out to this girl/ NOT doing nice things for her could be what's turning her off as well, though I'm not sure. If anything, she thinks I'm 'mean' as I'm always a bit of an ass around her lol. I've never ever complimented her as well. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Am I shooting myself in the foot by being completely apathetic?

5. The reason why I haven't completely lost it yet is because I'm trying to play the long game here. I want to continue hooking up with her for at least a few more months and hopefully make her more emotionally invested in me before I pull a disappearing act and hopefully make her miss me and realise that she wants to be exclusive.

Will pulling a houdini make her more compelled to rekindle things with me? Not that she doesn't initiate anymore (she still does), I just don't feel the enthusiasm from her end anymore. Fortunately, I don't reply in a way that makes it seem like I'm rattled. The texting ratio still stands at 90 (Her): 10 (Me).

P.S: Couple of things I need to add here. She recently ended a relationship so I'm pretty much the 'rebound' guy if you can call it that.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

 

[salinechow]

Holy crap. So another poster who is as long winded as me. Its funny being on the other side of it. When its important to you it doesn’t seem long, but seriously, it is. Luckily for you, you have me, a mutual compadre. So you better listen, because I might be the only who helps. From experience.
So I m going to address the questions first. Ill go longer if I seem like I need to, to help out.

1. Based on the description above, do I have a shot at converting this FWB arrangement into an LTR? No. I don’t think you do have a chance at an LTR. Couple of reasons why:
First, she is Bi sexual. This is one of two things. A confused BPD attention seeker, with insecurity issues, or, a true BI sexual, who, will always be and probably cheat on you always.
Also, I think the fact that you originally chased the roommate and failed makes you a conquest. She probably feels like this has been accomplished and has moved on. Even if she continues to be in contact or even sleep with you again, you are just that, a conquested village that pays her taxes. Attrition.

2. Is the crappy sex a dealbreaker? The intimacy was strong at one point, but have I ****ed it up for good by being a crappy lay? Until I get my act together, does the fact that I can still give her orgasms matter? This isn’t as essential as you believe. That’s your ego. However, it didn’t help. Again, another reason you were overtaken by a stronger army. Good thing you gave her orgasms. At least there is that. Not enough though, just a face saver. Just a place holder till she found another castle to live in.

3. With this new girl in the picture, should I:
Continue to do what I'm doing in a passive aggressive way
b.) Back off completely/freeze her out for at least a week Yep. You need to go ghost. I would say even NC. This is done. You are in orbit. Don’t allow that. Spin other plates and give this 90 days or more until she reaches out.

4. Is inaction or action more advisable as the next course of action at this stage? People have been telling me that my lack of initiative in terms of reaching out to this girl/ NOT doing nice things for her could be what's turning her off as well, though I'm not sure. If anything, she thinks I'm 'mean' as I'm always a bit of an ass around her lol. I've never ever complimented her as well. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Am I shooting myself in the foot by being completely apathetic? If you are too weak or stupid to take the above advice. (love makes us dumb, not intended as an insult per say) Go ghost for a month and then turn up the gas and try to blow the bridge with AFC bull****. “ Listen, I never treated you with the value In which I see you. Id like to take you out tonight to a proper dinner and take you back to my place afterwards. I have a few things Id like to say that I never got the chance to.” Mind you though, this will give her a lot of power dude and you will probably end up hurt. But, in the saying 1 in a million, someone has to be the one. My real advice though. Move on. At least have plates lined up before you try this.

5. The reason why I haven't completely lost it yet is because I'm trying to play the long game here. I want to continue hooking up with her for at least a few more months and hopefully make her more emotionally invested in me before I pull a disappearing act and hopefully make her miss me and realize that she wants to be exclusive. This play is so skewed and idiotic im not sure how to address it. You do realize that women are human beings and not a video game right? Your long game was peppered by weird weak short game stuff. I am confused at your logic. The last part though is probably your only shot. NC. It is a long shot though. She has a complete idea of you already. That rarely, rarely, rarely changes. You f^cked her already. If hooking up was the goal why did you keep “playing” anything. If LTR was the goal, why did you keep “playing”. Still confused at this logic. At some point these are real people that you need to constantly be in flux with. That’s the game.

To your last part… This is actually encouraging, but I still think you are in orbit for her. You are not a priority, just a attention vessel that she is worried about losing. Want to find out? Kill your gameing of her and get real. She’ll either get weirded out, satisfied in conquest, and disappear. Or, she may come to you. You have the choice.
Final verdict. NOPE. I am sorry man. From what you described. I think this is bad news, dosent go well and should be avoided. Its so easy to say from my perspective, but I still think it is quality advice. Lets see who else weighs in here. Move on dude.

 

[salinechow]

O and welcome aboard. Sorry, if I was harsh. We really are glad to have another Man aboard the ship. Give back when you can.

 

[bloodhound]

Thanks for the quality advice dude!

That was exactly what I needed to hear as its high time someone knocked some sense into me haha. So yeah no worries man, not harsh in the slighest!

As you can tell from the length of my post, I have severe oneitis with this girl Granted, she has absolutely NO clue how crazy I am about her on the surface so I'm constantly waging this internal war to hold myself back from doing anything stupid. I know for a fact she'll run for the hills if I make my intentions known now so I promised myself I'll never behave in a way that subcommunicates desperation or clearly indicates that I like her. Since I can't really be anymore indifferent or apathetic than I already am, I guess the only left I can experiment with (as you suggested) is dropping out of the face of the earth entirely. I know for a fact that my presence has filled a big gap in her life the last few months as she was really lonely without her ex around, so here's hoping I can restore some of the 'value' I had originally.

About that point you raised about my 'long game':

"5. The reason why I haven't completely lost it yet is because I'm trying to play the long game here. I want to continue hooking up with her for at least a few more months and hopefully make her more emotionally invested in me before I pull a disappearing act and hopefully make her miss me and realize that she wants to be exclusive. This play is so skewed and idiotic im not sure how to address it. You do realize that women are human beings and not a video game right? Your long game was peppered by weird weak short game stuff. I am confused at your logic. The last part though is probably your only shot. NC. It is a long shot though. She has a complete idea of you already. That rarely, rarely, rarely changes. You f^cked her already. If hooking up was the goal why did you keep “playing” anything. If LTR was the goal, why did you keep “playing”. Still confused at this logic. At some point these are real people that you need to constantly be in flux with. That’s the game."

Ultimately what I'm seeking was always an LTR. Correct me if im wrong, but is it not true that a girl will be more attached to you once you've done it with her? Hooking up was really a means to an end for me (to get into an LTR), as my strategy was to bed her and then hopefully make her more emotionally attached to me. Sounds silly I know, but I was told that women will naturally gravitate more to men that they've been intimate with and develop feelings after that. Was kind of banking on that to happen given the fact that she does genuinely enjoy spending time with me.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but if I'm finding it that hard to be without her, wouldn't the same logic apply to her if I make myself scarce? Either way, NC and going ice cold is clearly the only viable course of action here as you suggested. Giving her more attention will make me concede more power to her, while being completely nonchalant as I am now does nothing either.

 

[Fireballs]

Going from FWB/dating to a LTR is the girls job to worry about, not yours. The fact that she overtly told you that it was not a relationship tells me that she knows what you want from her ie. she knows she has you and is losing interest.

My advice is to go NC and date other girls. Read the 'Book of Pook' while you're at it.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3g...k3Yi00MDM4LWJhOWYtNDg5MDRhNzQ2YTZm/edit?pli=1

 

[salinechow]

Ok. A couple of things.

Glad you are an adult about the harshness. Some people might whine or shut off. And again, welcome.

As much as I hate to admit it, even in my own experience, ever the worst girls, for the worst reasons, always throw a hail mary pass at the end. Yet, I think men confuse that with an awakening of interest, or a change of heart, where they suddenly see the value in you and will forever love you. I don’t believe that.

I think it is something like what people in the medical community call agonal breaths. This is when the body is already dead, not coming back dead, yet the body still breathes these horrible last attempts at what it has been doing for its entire existence. It is really a sad thing to watch. Yet, these breaths do nothing because air is not even being drawn into the lungs and if it is, it is not being profused to give the life and oxygen the way it once did. Yet everyone, even DR sometimes, will continue to try to save the patient because we are hard wired as human beings, despite training, do believe that breathing equates life. Alas, though, we all know, that agonal breathing is the sign the death has replaced life. Best youll ever get, with a very skilled medical practitioner, is a brain dead patient and a heartbroken family. That is definitely not a life.

So, bringing it all back. The people that say breaking up with, or planning a break up with a girl, in order to fire a shot across her bow, in order to make her realize whatever, are playing a very dangerous game. Ones that allow girls to do this with them are in even more dire straits. In every circumstance of my own experience, either right away, or inevitably, this only made things worse, crazier, or more apathetic. Then, pulling the plug, gets even harder than just letting death take its own natural course.

Look, I get it, I really do. You want to strategize, you want to understand. When we do it gives us a sense of control and a sense of protecting the heart. Yet, like I mentioned above, as nuts and undone as woman can be. As manipulative and heartless they can act. Even in their wanton viciousness and duplicity. They are human beings. There is no set formula. This is not math, it is sex and love. Now of course certain things can give us a greater understanding and help us with our own behavior. However, after the pick-up, and before the break up, there is a lot of moments in between that you will have no answers for and will just have to go with your guts. You are going to have to let the heart lead at some point and take a few risks with it.(Probably why you were a sh!ty lay with her. You were calculating instead of enjoying what you set up)This is especially true if you seek an LTR as an apex of your game.

One valuable lesson you will learn around here that I am still trying to grasp better, is this; Sometimes these guys will purposely withhold wisdom in order for you to attain it. Again, leaving you to forget the math and science and rote formulas to go it your own.
(D!cks. Help me with train girl you bastards! http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=223405)

You have heard a lot of talk around here about Alpha Beta. A lot of talk about indifference and outcome indifference. Well, this does not always mean be a cold and lifeless robot. An Alpha male will sometimes when the time is right show his heart and be himself. Fearless of pain or unknowns. Risking your heart is true outcome indifference. A real man knows that no matter the outcome he will rise though and above and become wise and not jaded.

Everything I wrote above pertains to your past though. What I think you should have done better with this girl. What I think you should do the next time around in a similar situation.

Speaking to the present though, I think this girl is bad news, either in totality, or at least just for you. You need other plates. I think you need other plates before you even try to strategize this any further no less talk to this girl. You have some serious nearsightedness with this whole thing. You need to play with some other girls to give you perspective and fun.

NC. Contact. Formulas. Strategies. All of it is going to be deluded visions until you gather YOURSELF first. Hit the gym. Sweat. Listen to some FU music. Dont just go NC but try to forget this whole thing for a week. Literally do not spend 1 sec thinking of it for 1 week. Every time it surfaces FIGHT back. Sing Jingle bells out loud. You need perspective more than you need help.

My verdcit still. Its over. Like over over.
Agonal breaths my friend. Agonal breaths.

Discloser: I give good advice. I need to heed it as well. They say though the best way to learn is to teach. I type, so that I may listen also.