Reading Material question : Credibility of writers on the subject of PUA

[mikedee]

Wow, a lot of hate for Roosh V, people throw around "incel" a lot just as an insult towards someone they dislike. All I can say is his book "Bang" was the easiest read, blew thru it in 2 days, but then his game and the way he writes is really super basic and is IMO best for beginners and low level game.

I'm done with PUA books for now and plan on reading up on NLP and maybe "the Art of Seduction" -Greene.

In the meantime it's time for me to get back in the field and reapply myself after re-learning some of the rules I forgot over the years.

Promoting rape, mysoginistic comments, etc. If he is not an incel, I wonder what he is?
I have no respect for people like him (and other puas) that take advantage of young weak and naive men. Just a bunch of parasites.

The Art of seduction is a good read, but you won't learn anything, it's interesting though.

 

[FlirtLife]

From what I see he was never a player, and after seeing him in vids I find him even less credible. I do give him credit for going into far more detail than the other PUA writers but the question of how much of it is based on experience leaves me uninspired about his work.

I did look for that chapter but only found "Dread Game" which was insightful, but I am divorced, not in a LTR so it doesn't concern me so much right now, and I have as much experience as he does on that subject.

You're assuming one man's experience is the ideal, and seem to ignore all the research Rollo cited in his books. Hypergamy has been a subject of research - women prefer masculine faces at a certain point in their cycle. How are you going to learn that from one man's experience, and learn it better than a research study?

 

[ManFromTartarus]

You're assuming one man's experience is the ideal, and seem to ignore all the research Rollo cited in his books. Hypergamy has been a subject of research - women prefer masculine faces at a certain point in their cycle. How are you going to learn that from one man's experience, and learn it better than a research study?

I just don't have that much faith in him or his research so not wasting my time on it.

 

[FlirtLife]

You're assuming one man's experience is the ideal, and seem to ignore all the research Rollo cited in his books. Hypergamy has been a subject of research - women prefer masculine faces at a certain point in their cycle. How are you going to learn that from one man's experience, and learn it better than a research study?

Wanted to clarify "research ... cited", "subject of research" and "research study" in my post all referred to research papers, not one person's personal research.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/147470491401200102

Women’s preferences for men’s facial masculinity are strongest under favorable ecological conditions - Scientific Reports

The strength of sexual selection on secondary sexual traits varies depending on prevailing economic and ecological conditions. In humans, cross-cultural evidence suggests women’s preferences for men’s testosterone dependent masculine facial traits are stronger under conditions where health is...

www.nature.com

 

[Ricky]

I truly believe one of the keys of game is learning what you can from each teacher and discarding what doesn't work.

The only way to know what doesn't work (for you) is to go out and try it.

Back in the day i used a combination of Ross Jeffries and David Deangelo. Later Mystery and Neil Strauss came along and i saw the value of some canned routines. The nice part about Ross or David (who also had some canned stuff) is that they provided some ideas for conversationally hooking women. Thats the key. I dont care how good looking you are, you can lose women in conversations if you aren't good at it.

I got great at opening. Its a little more challenging to hit the hook point and close but closing alone isn't enough. If you didn't build up enough interest the numbers could be kindling for your next fire instead of dates.

 

[Solomon]

A players Handbook written buy a guy married for 30 years? lmfaoooo ok

 

[Ricky]

A players Handbook written buy a guy married for 30 years? lmfaoooo ok

I'll withhold judgement until i read it. I think his story other than that he has been on Sosuave as long as me is that he spent alot of time in the entertainment industry and he got interested in social dynamics.

 

[RBK]

Most are regurgitating the same stuff. Cooper especially.

 

[Stanley]

Most are regurgitating the same stuff. Cooper especially.

Cooper is extremely derivative. His book is basically 'Red pill' for dummies. He does on occasion give sound advice to young men, but he comes across as a complete grifter who hasn't gotten over his divorce.

 

[SW15]

Cooper is extremely derivative. His book is basically 'Red pill' for dummies. He does on occasion give sound advice to young men, but he comes across as a complete grifter who hasn't gotten over his divorce.

Cooper is strongly based on Rollo Tomassi. He has a way of saying things more succinctly than Rollo Tomassi.

"The Unplugged Alpha" was 200 pages and "The Rational Male" was 284 pages (in a smaller font than Unplugged Alpha -- at the same font size it would have likely been 310-320 pages). "Rational Male: Players Handbook" is around 500 pages.

 

[Reincarnated]

Love Neill Straus, love his Motley Crue book The Dirt, loved reading The Game (actually have read it multiple times). Didn't know the bit about the mismatch of timelines with Courtney Love, makes me agree that he may have taken some "creative liberties", but I do think the majority of the actual PUA content is legitimate. He really did embed himself in that lifestyle and I think it's a very unique perspective.

As for other PUA-related books, I'll always be a fan of that Neill Straus era of the early 2000s, I like "The Mystery Method" for it's psychology even though some content is outdated. Frankly I think that really captured the spirit of PUA better than any other on many levels, you just don't get that kind of commitment anymore, perhaps for obvious reasons/societal changes.

 

[Ricky]

Are any of the day game books good

 

[ManFromTartarus]

Are any of the day game books good

Haven't found any specifically on day game, they all usually have a chapter or section on it.
How good? For me the jury is still out on PUA books in general as they give a lot of good nuts & bolts to draw from but the credibility of these authors is still questionable for me.
I think what Ricky said in post #25 of this thread has a lot of validity.

 

[Grounded eagle]

Guys,you do know that from the beginning of the first Rational Male,Rollo stated that he wasn’t a PUA guru or a motivational speaker,but just a guy who connected some dots?

You do know that he made no secret of the fact that he was married WITH KIDS in the aforementioned book and that he’d been married for a while before he wrote it?

I’ve never understood some of the criticism Rollo gets. I mean,there is definitely some validity to the,“you should practice what you preach” mentality,but who else has more repeatedly,ably and accurately articulated and verbalized the plight and experiences of men in the modern dating market?

I take him seriously because most of what he says is congruent with what I’ve experienced as a young man in the modern dating scene.And because espousing some of the ideas and attitudes he puts forth has gotten me results.

Funny thing is,guys criticize him and then come here and push the concepts that he discusses.The irony.

The point is,it’d do a lot of people a lot of good if they separated the ideas from the guy giving them,because the fact is that the ideas are solid.Again,people should generally practice what they preach,but if ever there was a time to have an exception to that rule,this is it.Especially considering how many actual frauds there are out there.

 

[ManFromTartarus]

guys criticize him and then come here and push the concepts that he discusses.

Probably because all these authors push the same concepts and have since the beginning of PUA and Ross Jeffries.

 

[FlirtLife]

Probably because all these authors push the same concepts and have since the beginning of PUA and Ross Jeffries.

If only someone had given you a counter-example of "the same concepts" "since" "Ross Jeffries" ...

I would strongly encourage you to read the chapter "Passive Dread" before you finish or give up reading. The insights there apply to LTR and marriage - and you'd expect Rollo to be credible there. For former players and beta men alike, I think that chapter is probably worth its own book.

 

[ManFromTartarus]

If only someone had given you a counter-example of "the same concepts" "since" "Ross Jeffries" ...

If you're a fan and it works for you, fine.
I just don't get much from him or chapters about marriage dynamics.

Maybe because he's an SS alumnus folks get defensive about his work but I'm just being honest in that I don't connect with his writing and won't be spending any time on it.

 

[ManFromTartarus]

I appreciate all the input folks, but we're beating a dead horse now.
Mods can you shut this thread down?

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

I’ve never understood some of the criticism Rollo gets.

I'll give you my point of view and why I have criticized him in the past. First of all, I give him props, as many posters have already stated, about how he doesn't hide who he is. He doesn't have a persona or a facade. He's definitely not a "keyboard jockey" and he doesn't seem to be in it for the money or the notoriety. And, he does research. All good things IMO.

It is true though, as he states, most of his writings are based heavily on RESEARCH and not personal experience. That, in itself, is a red flag. That being said, his research, to me, seems to be biased towards already solidified personal opinions. Self admitedly, I haven't read anything from RM in quite a while, however, whenever I have challenged him in the past on various platforms, he very rarely (maybe once) has been open to getting into an actual discussion about what he had currently written. Basically, he does his research, forms an opinion, and, like the Iron Rules of Tomassi (which have many faults themselves), sticks to his guns and can't/won't further explain or get into more detail of where those opinions came from. He doesn't debate. He won't discuss. Not from what I've seen anyway. Even back when he was on here. He'd make a statement, and if you didn't agree with him, or it was a response that required a deeper knowledge, he'd just ignore.

THAT is my problem with him. I've said it before, I'm about 60/40 on him. However, he's not fluid at all. He's very black and white which, to me, shows a lack of understanding and/or a weakness.

 

[FlirtLife]

... whenever I have challenged him in the past on various platforms, he very rarely (maybe once) has been open to getting into an actual discussion about what he had currently written.
...
He doesn't debate. He won't discuss. Not from what I've seen anyway.

I'm curious when you "challenged him in the past" relative to when he published five books.

My guess is he spent more time debating 10+ years ago than more recently. Rollo Tomassi wrote five books from 2013-2022, two of which I've read. Tomassi mentions the SoSuave forums in his books, and specifically views other than his own. But that may reflect how he did things 10+ years ago rather than more recently.