Quick Question I Need Answered

[TillTheEndOfTime]

1) sent from a computer located in Washington, or

Obviously not the case here

2) sent to an e-mail address that the sender knows, or has reason to
know, is held by a Washington resident

You could fight it based on this technicality. According to the act itself, if you didn't know he was a washington resident, the Washington law doesn't "protect" him. :crackup:

II)false or misleading information in the subject line. [ False Subject Line
-
The Consumer Protection Division of the State of Washington provides a
number of sample questions to help a recipient of spam to determine if
the subject line is false or misleading.

Does it accurately describe what is contained in the e-mail. For example,
does a subject line describing *important news about your taxes* contain
a message with information about a get-rich-quick scheme?

Is it a *come-on,* attempting to entice you to read the message?

Does it create a false sense of urgency?

Does it misrepresent the identity of the sender of the message?]

The above is the only grey area. It is a bit subjective, but I don't think your subject line can be thought of to undoubtly violate the above.

Anyways, is the letter you have from the Washington State Superior Court? If he is basing his argument on the violation of Washington's law, he CAN'T sue you privately. It must be mediated by the government. He is entitled to $0 privately until it goes through the government and they decide there is reasonable grounds to believe you did violate the law. Then they will award him $500 IF the government sides with him. He definetely won't get more than $500 whatever the outcome because he does not have any damages to claim.

 

[DJF or John]

Well...Tilltheendoftime

The Sheriff delievered it to my partner's doorstep this morning.

It's for the district of King County.

See here's the thing.

In this situation, I had my assistant send emails to our clients because we were doing a select Auditing Services for companies.

So the subject line said:

Re: Question About Your Service

And in the message itself, we talked about how areas of bottom line expense services like A/P, Healthcare, etc., are having some problems with correct billing, and I wanted to have my Auditing partners call you, etc, etc.

So I said Question About Your Service. And the "service" I was talking about was their bottom line services.

I guess the guy would say, that he thought I was talking about his business services or products that he offers....but I mean, question about your service can be anything, am I right?

I could email Mcdonald's and say, Question About Your Menu? That could mean anything "related" to the menu, right?

So when I email a client and say, Question About Your Service? Would that not mean anything "related" to the services of his business? That's what the email was about, it wasn't about my company, it was about the services of his business and how he might be overpaying them.

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

Well...Tilltheendoftime

The Sheriff delievered it to my partner's doorstep this morning.

It's for the district of King County.

See here's the thing.

In this situation, I had my assistant send emails to our clients because we were doing a select Auditing Services for companies.

So the subject line said:

Re: Question About Your Service

And in the message itself, we talked about how areas of bottom line expense services like A/P, Healthcare, etc., are having some problems with correct billing, and I wanted to have my Auditing partners call you, etc, etc.

So I said Question About Your Service. And the "service" I was talking about was their bottom line services.

I guess the guy would say, that he thought I was talking about his business services or products that he offers....but I mean, question about your service can be anything, am I right?

I could email Mcdonald's and say, Question About Your Menu? That could mean anything "related" to the menu, right?

So when I email a client and say, Question About Your Service? Would that not mean anything "related" to the services of his business? That's what the email was about, it wasn't about my company, it was about the services of his business and how he might be overpaying them.

All I can tell you is the subject line is the only POSSIBLE article in the law that you are violating since you clearly were not violating the others. In that case, to be found guilty, your subject line would have had to be designed with the obvious intent to deceive. Something like "once in a lifetime opporunity, don't miss you!", "important news article I found.." etc. Your subject line was clearly not made with the intention to mislead/deceive. You are fine, don't worry.

When the case gets thrown out, countersue for lost wages/revenue.

 

[DJF or John]

Thanks Tilltheend.

That's what I told the guy today too. I told the guy he has no case at all. And I told him that I was going to countersue, and he turned from being a ****y bastard to being all scared and goofy acting.

I understand that Spam is a problem in this country, but that doesn't mean that I can't send out a simple email about business services.

I would think a guy like this would go after a company that was CLEARLY trying to rip him off, with some viagra, diet pills, or some other type of crap in his inbox.

I am a real person, a real company, my number, address, name, website, all that stuff is in there.

For what reason does this guy have to go after me? All day today, I haven't made a single phone call.

- I had clients to meet with, I had to cancel.
- I had people I had to do analyses for, I had to cancel.

This guy has indeed cost me around $2000! And I can prove that...hell, some of these clients I have build rapport with probably will go to a competitor now because I haven't contacted them!

So he wants to make an "example" okay....I will make an "example" out of his azz. And that "example" is this:

Don't fvck with the LAW...if you don't fvckin KNOW IT.

Trying to make a quick buck off of a 22 year old guy, that has been through hell and high fvckin water to get to where I am. This shyt didn't fall out the sky, nobody gave me anything.

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

Thanks Tilltheend.

That's what I told the guy today too. I told the guy he has no case at all. And I told him that I was going to countersue, and he turned from being a ****y bastard to being all scared and goofy acting.

I understand that Spam is a problem in this country, but that doesn't mean that I can't send out a simple email about business services.

I would think a guy like this would go after a company that was CLEARLY trying to rip him off, with some viagra, diet pills, or some other type of crap in his inbox.

I am a real person, a real company, my number, address, name, website, all that stuff is in there.

For what reason does this guy have to go after me? All day today, I haven't made a single phone call.

- I had clients to meet with, I had to cancel.
- I had people I had to do analyses for, I had to cancel.

This guy has indeed cost me around $2000! And I can prove that...hell, some of these clients I have build rapport with probably will go to a competitor now because I haven't contacted them!

So he wants to make an "example" okay....I will make an "example" out of his azz. And that "example" is this:

Don't fvck with the LAW...if you don't fvckin KNOW IT.

Trying to make a quick buck off of a 22 year old guy, that has been through hell and high fvckin water to get to where I am. This shyt didn't fall out the sky, nobody gave me anything.

Yeah, he doesn't seem to fully understand the philosophy behind the law from what you're telling me. He also doesn't know what he is doing pulling out a $1500 law suit from his as$ I think he's scared now because he sees you've done research and know that he is full of crap.

Normally the hard part of fighting spam is FINDING the spammer, not deciding if it is spam or not based on some technicality. It is obvious your intent is spamming when you hide your real e-mail address, or hack other people's account and spam through them. You have clearly made no attempt to hide your identity or deceive the recipients. The intent to spam is missing and that is the key factor.

Anyways, you're welcome. You have nothing to worry about.

 

[DJF or John]

Tilltheend

here's a copy of a recent thing like this:

http://news.com.com/Washington+states+first+spam+suit/2100-1023_3-217020.html

This guy was selling some $39.95 product or something. I don't know, after reading everything, maybe the guy actually does have a valid case? The only thing is, I know I can't come out to Washington State, I'm in Michigan.

I'm not spending the cash to fly out there, and since the hearing is April 6, that plane ticket is over $2000.

I am going to see if I could talk with an Attorney tomorrow with a free consultation. The only thing is, an Attorney can't be used in small claims court.

So I'll see what happens here. I mean, this is just really dumb and I don't really believe in the "devil" but I have all senses to believe this is the case.

This year my business has taken off greatly, and I see this as nothing but something trying to take me down.

But I won't go down without a fight.

 

[Last Man Standing]

DJF - you are spending to much time on this - $1500 is not much - don't waste legal fees and worry too much about this. What you have to worry about is if you get hundreds of these - then panic!!

This is a good wake up call and a chance to review your practivces and delivery and determine if changes need to be made.

Your title was generic enough -- IF you would have said "Services at YOUR bank" or something to this effect then it will be consideriedmisleading!

Do they give you STATE info when you get these leads?? Might be good to know state laws and avoid certain States!

 

[ExploringOne]

I am a real person, a real company, my number, address, name, website, all that stuff is in there.

For what reason does this guy have to go after me?

That is precisely the reason he went after you... all your information was in the e-mail. A true spammer will hide his identity at all costs. This guy would probably rather go after someone other then you, but he probably lacks the skills to pin down the ip of real spammers... some of the new stuff these guys do to mask the origin is pretty hard to deal with.

I'm actually tempted to make you a pro bono offer to ping his system into oblivion for a few days... but lately i've been trying to stay all legal

I was wrong about this guy actually following through, but I still highly doubt that he will follow through with the case. Even if he does, he really has no case, it's likely to be thrown out of court the instant the judge hears your side of the story. Just by virtue of it being 1 e-mail, the judge is likely to view the plaintiff as nothing more then a trouble maker.

That is assuming the guy actually spends the money on a plain ticket...

You can countersue for lost wages, but it would probably be a waste of time for you... the burdain of proof will fall on you as the plaintiff to prove that you actually lost time, specifically b/c of this situation, and that's going to be nearly impossible to prove.

Please keep posting how things turn out, I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to find out the end result...

 

[DJF or John]

Thanks guys and I will keep you all informed.

I am calling some attorneys tomorrow in WA, to get some advice on moving forward.

Since this is the WA spam law, I am wondering if I can actually change venues or not? When I talked to the guy at King County Court today, he said I could, but he might not know.

The guy at the Court said to fax a statement into the court to give to the judge, and the judge would change the venues. But does this apply with this Spam Law? I don't know.

I will get to the bottom of this tomorrow.

And yeah, I am changing my practices here a little. This Spam stuff is becoming a real problem, so I don't want to have to be the one that takes an azz-whipping because of someone else's problems.

But if I can't change the venues, and if I can't represent myself from Michigan in the hearing in WA, I will just take this as a loss I guess.

I know if I can change the venues, this case is pretty much over. Because the IP provider can get $1,000 and the guy can get $500, but I don't think they will fly out to Michigan to deal with this.

Later fellows.

 

[DJF or John]

Another worry I have is actually something that PRL brought up.

See, my assistant sent out a number of these things. And this particular guy didn't call me, he just started up the case.

The lady that called my phone yesterday, I have tried to reach her by phone but she won't respond. However, she is in Alabama, as of yet, I haven't seen any similar laws such as this is Alabama. The only place I see a law like this is in Washington.

Just funny this whole thing is. But now I'm pissed off, and I will double my quota this week!

 

[Last Man Standing]

Maybe you should request an e-mail response instead of including your personal info. Learn all state laws regarding spamming or else it may get worse! People are becoming more aware of their rights and you are a easy target because they know who you are!

Don't call her back - leave that one alone.

 

[DrMetallica]

SPAMMERS UNITE!

Lets all spam so we can raise some money and help a fellow spammer out.


Spamming. The noblest of professions that further propels our society by telling you about useless products and flooding your inbox. What valiant men are these that help treat the human condition with cheap, disposable, and non-functioning wares.


No one, can save the day like Spamman
Inbox, will make you sway like that and
Beat for beat, rhyme for rhyme
Deep in Gotham, fightin crime
No one, can save the day like Spamman

Commissioner Gordon here!
Spamman & Inbox, we have a bit of a problem
There's trouble brewing in Gotham City
You MUST act fast!

"Spamman! Spamman! Spamman."

-RBX

Brilliant !!!

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

Dude....read that article you sent me:

"he suit alleges that the business Natural Instincts and its owner, Jason Heckel, sent spam to millions of Net users--including Washington state residents--in an attempt to sell his book, How to Profit From the Internet."

Sending e-mail to ONE person who interpreted it as spam is NOT the same as the above.

"Spammers have become increasingly deceptive with headers, in an effort to get people to click on their email. Sometimes they will start headers with "Re" making it appear as if they are replying or will use subjects like, "Sorry I missed your call."

Again, again, again, again, again, you did NOT do the above. You are not violating the law. "In an effort" basically goes back to the idea of INTENT to deceive. Your subject line does not classify as an obvious intent to deceive the reader into opening it for no good reason. Any reasonable doubt is enough to throw out a case like yours.

"Consumers didn't know where the message was coming from and weren't told in the subject line of the message what it was about. His spam clearly crossed the boundary from being annoying to being illegal."

1) Your recipients KNOW it is coming from you. You're not using deceitful tactics
2) At MOST, your e-mail is annoying to this individual, but not spam in the LEGAL definition

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

You said you only sent out e-mails to previous clients and Opt-In Email lists. I smell a possible scam as well. Someone signs up to an opt-in e-mail list and sues you allegedly for spam!

Can you confirm that this person was from an opt-in list? If so, have the opt-in email company verify that it is true and he has NO case at all. In fact, you now have a VERY strong countersuit because what he is doing is basically some form of fraud.

If that is true, you could countersue for unethical conduct while filing a frivolous lawsuit. Give the facts to the judge and the judge will see that the plaintiff is a scam artist. You can claim all incurred expenses due to the suit. Thati nclued travel, lost wages, etc.

Talk to your assistant. DO NOT talk to him. Find out if you can verify any of the above is true. As long as you're buying e-mail lists for a RESPECTABLE company, he's screwed.

 

[DJF or John]

Tilltheend I got you.

I'm trying to get this venue changed from Washington to my state of Michigan.

Once and if the judge does that, then basically the case is over. Because the guy can only get $500 out of the deal, and it will cost more than that to fly over here.

Yeah, the email probably just annoyed the hell outta him. He probably wasn't even in the area for our services anyway, because we don't deal with really small guys.

The guy could have just deleted the email, but I guess I can't try to justify someone's "actions."

All I know, is that this basically has pissed me off. Talk about "annoying," this crap is overacting like hell. And I have really just been pushed over the fvckin edge.