Protein With Cardio?

[SinJester]

I'm a skinny guy, always have been, and now I'm desperate and passionately determined to get bigger.

Around here is seems there’s a "No fvcking cardio!" policy. But because of my sporting commitments I have to do a decent amount of running.

Would protein shakes before or after help reduce the risk of muscle/weight loss? Would my high protein diet still allow me to gain despite some running? Or would it be best to stick with quality carbs before/after/during running?

Please don't tell me not to do any cardio at all. Then I wouldn't be able to follow my sporting goals and I would lose a largely enjoyable part of my life. Also, take note that I am so small that I would be very happy with what would most liekly be considered small gains by you guys. And any strength/mass gained will also vastly help my sporting career if I don't lose too much endurance.

Thanks for any advice, your helping to improve a fellow mans life.

 

[Throttle]

there's no no-cardio policy around here, unless you read diesel's guides, and most of us who dish out advice these days ignore them (sorry, diesel, wherever you've wandered off to). anyone who either wants to lose bodyfat or maintain a healthy heart (that should cover everyone) needs some form of cardio, though gentler forms interfere less w/ building mass.

lots of protein is always a good thing when trying to gain size/strength, but there's no reason for a bunch of fancy timing -- just eat before and after, whatever fits into the rest of your diet plan.

the more relevant issue is stress on the CNS (central nervous system). your body can only take so much beating before additional beatings become counterproductive. if you tell us more about your running (frequency, duration, intensity), we can tell you more about how it's going to affect any lifting gains, and what compromises might be in order (once you say "running" and "lifting" you're already in the realm of compromise). also, it would be helpful to know more about this sporting of yours. what sort?

 

[Mr.Positive]

I don't see any reason why you can't include weight training with cardio. Lifting heavy weight, and eating high protein, is the only way to really gain weight/stength.

To gain weight, and not cut down on the cardio, just start lifting heavy weight at the gym and maybe eat more. The running probably won't set you back much, and if it's important to your training goals, stick with it.

 

[mintxx]

just follow the suggestions in the guides and eat a bit extra to make up for the running. get your extra carbs for running prep and recovery, (this will partially mitigate the mass burning effect of cardio) and your extra protein in the hours after weight training, as well as a decent diet with plenty of wholesome foods. learn how the body works as well, it'll make things much easier and less of a hassle

 

[Warboss Alex]

actually I wrote up a reply to this and then realised Throttle had it nailed..

 

[Warboss Alex]

I would recommend circuit training or HIIT; those methods allow you to best maintain your conditioning while building strength and muscle.

Provided your recovery lets you do this.. not everyone has the capacity to do sprints 3-4x a week AND gain strength/muscle at a reasonable rate.

 

[SinJester]

Thanks guys. The most encouraging replies I've recieved anywhere.

@Throttle: Yeah I haven't been around here for awhile. That comment I made was probably just based on people like Diesel and people I've talked to from sosuave before.

My running consists of the normal requirements of Australian Rules Football. I'm not sure how much you would know about it so I will elaborate. It is played on a huge oval so the running would probably be split up to maye 50% walking, 30% jogging and 20% spriting, although drastically changing depending on your position on the ground. This means I would probably end up doing a bit more running. There are 4 twenty minutes quarters plus extra time. Although my season just finished so I have a whole off-season to do what I want. Sounds hard to gain huh?

The thing is high strenth is also important because it is a very phsycial game. There are a lot of guys I know that are very big and still maintain a great running capacity. I wish I was like them. Sad thing is a lot of them just got great genes. I'm the workhorse.

the more relevant issue is stress on the CNS (central nervous system). your body can only take so much beating before additional beatings become counterproductive

I think that is the problem. Every time I satrt lifting I seem to get sick. Doing too much...

I would recommend circuit training or HIIT; those methods allow you to best maintain your conditioning while building strength and muscle.

Whats that?

@Warboss Alex: You still could have posted it

Alright, thanks again. Glad to see theres lots of great guys around here this time.

 

[Warboss Alex]

I wish I was like them. Sad thing is a lot of them just got great genes. I'm the workhorse.

It is good that you've realised this.. many people bring up the examples of (mostly black) athletes getting huge and ripped with bodyweight exercises and think that is the norm.. it is not. Professional, elite athletes are professional and elite for a reason.

However, if you train smart, you can make AWESOME progress with even mediocre genetics. The key is determination, consistency, patience and training right for YOUR genes.

I think that is the problem. Every time I satrt lifting I seem to get sick. Doing too much...

That's a sure sign of taking on too much at once - and possibly a poor lifting routine as well, but most likely CNS burnout due to sports + heavy training. However, you've just said you have your offseason now, so you can aim to add some strength+mass and maintain fitness - a modest goal which is perfectly achievable.

I would get on a strength-based, low volume routine with a mix of light and hard cardio (depending on your recovery abilities) to maintain your fitness.

@Warboss Alex: You still could have posted it

No point in repeating anything.. Throttle and then Espi said everything that needed to be said.

Right now we need to concentrate on your lifting and diet. I would start up a new thread as a journal, and log just about everything you do/eat/drink/sleep.

 

[student warrior]

Take your resting heart rate when you wake up if it increases by 10% your overtraining.

 

[Omen]

If you run, you need carbs. Now yeah, you can get protein for calories, but I HIGHLY suggest you eat many carbs. Not only is it fuel, carbs are protein sparing.

If your NOT getting enough carbs, then you'll be using protein for fuel which is a no no.

 

[Throttle]

If your NOT getting enough carbs, then you'll be using protein for fuel which is a no no.

the body is highly efficient at getting energy out of both fat and protein... the more I read & learn about food & diet, the less convinced I am that carbs are necessary for anything except producing an insulin spike (which granted, has its place in some diets at certain times)

 

[Omen]

the body is highly efficient at getting energy out of both fat and protein... the more I read & learn about food & diet, the less convinced I am that carbs are necessary for anything except producing an insulin spike (which granted, has its place in some diets at certain times)

Fat yes, protein no. The body doesn't use protein for fuel unless you have no other sources of fuel. Mainly carbs.

We catabolise CHO fatty acids and protein to form ATP.

Glycogen in muscles and liver are used as the energy source fueling our workouts. Glycogen stores are then depleted within a few hours of exercise.

Proteins for energy plays a VERY minor role at about 1-2%

We are talking about fuel/energy for the body, which comes from Anaerobic Glycolysis. If he is running, and has a high intensity, he'll be using blood glucose.

Now if it is a 2hr bout of exercise and low fuel from the above (and fat) then yeah, its possible protein MAY be used as fuel.

Maybe you are reading about food in the diet, and not its role in exercise metabolism and how it relates to physiology and exercise. I PROMISE, there is more to it than just an insulin spike.

Hopefully some of that helped. Notice the BIGGEST thing in this post of mine is 3 letters. ATP

 

[Throttle]

i'm reading everything i can get my hands on, and working hard to sort the real deal from the bull****, of which there is plenty around. there's a lot of blowhard self-appointed experts in the realm of nutrition, and sniffing them out is plenty difficult. i'm more skeptical than ever that most people in the field know what they're talking about. if my lifting (and if ran, my running) suffers, i add some carbs for glycogen. otherwise.....

 

[Omen]

i'm reading everything i can get my hands on, and working hard to sort the real deal from the bull****, of which there is plenty around. there's a lot of blowhard self-appointed experts in the realm of nutrition, and sniffing them out is plenty difficult. i'm more skeptical than ever that most people in the field know what they're talking about. if my lifting (and if ran, my running) suffers, i add some carbs for glycogen. otherwise.....

Its not easy to sort things out. But I can say that what I mentioned isn't anything from a self appointed expert.

I can say that the expert I got my info from is a professor of Exercise Physiology with a PhD, and is BRILLIANT (almost too smart) at what he does. Not to mention that his HUGE, or strong point is Metabolism.

He told us once... I can talk about the Krebs Cycle and Electron Transport Chain for 6 weeks. We were like... Uh... NO :nervous:

Anything related to Human Performance in Exercise I dont get from Dieticians, or just anyone.

So I promise, that if what you mentioned about insulin is all that is true, I would have agreed.

If you really want to get your hand on info related to all of this, pick up an exercise phys book.

For people who really want to see what lots of it is about, should buy a book so you can see in depth how things go hand in hand.

Getting your info from the web wont always cut it. Not to mention you need to forget things you read from dieticians unless they specialize in this stuff as they wont be talking about most of this. Though ATP is fuel, and you would assume they would, they dont much.

Anyway, the info I related is something any student in an exercise program for a degree will learn, so its not like it is just pulled from thin air.

And if you have so solid questions on this topic, hit me up and i'll get them all answered.

 

[Throttle]

I don't dispute what you say about fat vs. protein as energy sources, i realize i made my point above sloppily.

but i have a big problem with 'what everyone learns' and 'people who are smart'...both of those got us the notions that saturated fat & dietary cholesterol are evil. I want to see people who understand what science is and then actually practice it -- double-blind, randomized experiments, etc., rather than confirmatory hypothesis-testing. otherwise, you have to find someone who looks the way you want to look, and make sure you copy everything they do (and hope your genetics cooperate w/ those goals)

I've actually been reading quite a few books on all this stuff -- I don't trust anything on the web on this subject anymore, unless I can read the original studies (including the results section) myself.

BTW--a PhD can be a self-appointed expert, and many are, if they go beyond what they can actually show, and pontificate on things b/c they feel very strongly about those subjects. That's exactly what the MDs & PhDs behind the saturated fat myth did. None of them had a shred of reliable evidence against saturated fat, but used their degrees to commit the fallacy of appeal to authority. Your points about where you get your info come very close to this same appeal...

That's not to doubt what you said about the Krebs Cycle, which even I remember from biology class. But theory is one thing, practice is another, and none of our bodies run on theory, they run on practice. Lots of things that look good on paper (for one example, "to lose weight, eat fewer calories & exercise calories off") are total trash when anyone tries to put them it practice. Don't believe me? I can offer a nice long reading list on this subject...

 

[Omen]

I hear what you're saying, but I was making sure you weren't just stating that carbs are only good for insulin spike and that was it. I mean when I spoke of Glycolysis and carbs and the whole bit, that had nothing to do with so called experts or any of that, though we learn it from them, the fact is that's how the body performs.

That whole cycle forms ATP, and we know this. In a sense its like saying your heart doesn't beat.

And maybe it was put sloppily, I dont know, but there is a difference as to what you speak of by... I need to see studies, versus things that happen in the body that we dont need to see any studies on. I'd hate for people to say.. I want to see a study that says that was a concentric and eccentric contraction. Uh.... :kick:

Its a tough thing (all of this) and there is more and more debate. But i'm with you, I deal with it all the time.

I'll post a deal about protein one time. The talk about how much we really need.

This one study at Kent State REALLY did some amazing things to test this. Even collected SWEAT. (they tested the nitrogen in it) I know, crazy. But i'll get to that when I have time.

 

[mrRuckus]

I'll post a deal about protein one time. The talk about how much we really need.

Please don't. There is no point.

 

[Omen]

Please don't. There is no point.

Why is there no point?

I know, because so and so said that 2g was the norm, and then next year someone will claim 3g and everyone will go around saying... Dude, you need 3 grams.

Truth be told, the Kent State study on this subject is the most detailed one to date, and I mean DETAILED. And guess what? It was even done per kg, and not pound.

But hey, what ever. I dont have a problem with you, but you always seem to have it down when it comes to this stuff, and are so sure, that nothing will change your mind.

Yeah its one study, and only one, but it was an amazing one, and if you dont care to see it, fine, but i'm sure you must have read it already then.

Since you are the protein expert then, answer me this.

What is the REAL RDA, the standard deviation they give for it, and then the results of the Kent State study?

Look at all those numbers and tell me what you get. Then tell me why 2g/lb is appropriate.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Omen, have you ever tried 2-2.5g protein per lb consistently? (over 6-12 months, NOT as long as a given study lasts)

 

[Warboss Alex]

What is the REAL RDA, the standard deviation they give for it, and then the results of the Kent State study?

Look at all those numbers and tell me what you get. Then tell me why 2g/lb is appropriate.

Sorry mate, I do not give a flying fvck what Kent State comes up with. I am 242lbs this morning and I did not get up there by eating as dictated by a study.

I tried lower protein intakes and simply didn't find it as optimal.

That is why 2g per lb is appropriate. in my experience (NOT my reading) it works better than lower amounts.

are your studies done on intensive weight trainers with an appreciable level of muscle mass and hard training? If not, what subjects are used in the studies?