Post College Disillusionment - a rant

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Okay then what do you suggest for me for college: (what major, etc)

Here's what I'm doing now:
web/graphic design, programming (mostly web based), djing, audio engineering, making beats, filmmaking (doesnt interest me as much and i haven't made many yet)

I'm good at math but it's boring unless I have a good teacher.

I really don't wanna be doing a slave job, but I'm having a hard time monetizing my skills. I think it's possible though, I know a lotta people who have done it. (Surrounding myself with successful people :))

Here's a thread with more info: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=127177
 

Roulette

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Zerix said:
By the way, anyone here majored in Business (or Business Management)? How'd that turn out?
Business Admin - Marketing

Go with self-employment mate. Why work your way up the ladder when you can create the damn thing yourself. ;)

Kudos,
Matt
 

backbreaker

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trust me when I say working for yourself isn't for everone. depending on what you are doing.

I echoed thoose same sentiments about... say......6-7 years ago... then when I started my business and the tough times hit.. I thought "I have to be a complete fool to keep my business up and running when I can't EAT"....and i must have been because I did
 

A-Unit

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Re:

Having attended and paid for college myself, this post compels me to comment on what I've seen and experienced.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I finished HS in the top 20 out of 800. Took AP classes. Even classes at college, too. I'm visual, so whatever I see, I remember on a test. Basically, I'd see the page and remember it verbatim on the test. Math wasn't the same, because math isn't memorization, it's learning skills and tools to solve regular problems. Like learning to use a hammer or screwdriver in multiple places. It may not be the EXACT same nail or screw, but by and large you lear HOW to use it. So Math was a wee bit different than say, Biology, English or History. But college for me was as easy, too.

Lacking a father or mother figure who said..."here's what we know of being 'successful'" (as they are blue collar and hard-busting their ace workers themselves), going to college was to say the least, unique for me. I was oldest of the old. Cousins. Grandchildren. Children. First of most, except a few uncles, twice my age who were engineers. And to engineers...Education = $$$$. I had one "business" oriented uncle, and he never finished college. He attended 3 years of medical school, dropped out to 2 work at 2 gas stations while living with 2 women, both of which he banged and knocked up, then went to work in sales at his father's company, without his father's approval. Eventually, they got over their differences and he became CEO and president making 700k+. In Boston, that isn't big time, but it's enough to make your own schedule and get in at some nice spots.

So after I realized ANYONE could get 4.0, I realized there HAD to be another way. And that was when, with the assistance of "self help" books, Jim Rohn, Brian Tracey, and company, and I chose my own path. I chose a few mentors who wanted to mentor. They care about my success. I love my family, but there's a difference between EFFECTIVE and EFFICIENT, as well as productive in the direction of success.

So my journey began when my frustration turned to action and motivation. Sometimes frustration, actually, most of the time, it's a great thing. It gets you amped up. Emotional. Even pissed. People who never savor that, never hit bottom. They're always CAUGHT by something and someone, so they're never self-motivated. That's why I don't believe in much help for anyone. They need to see the Abyss. Without doing so, they can never know how bad it can be, they can't learn to appreciate anything and won't learn how strong they COULD be.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When you examine college, its a sham. I mean come on. All the people PUSHING college, haven't invested in anything more than their homes as such a sum. College, at the cheapeast, is 10k, and that's assuming you attend a local community college. A premier education si 150k, plus, not including miscellaneous items, opportunity cost of NOT actually investing that money, interest on loans, and time in between where other expenses are incurred. Your brain is worth that, but is your spirit, your will enough to make it grow better than a 5% cd compounded???

For most, the answer is actually No.

They wouldn't accept hearing such hogwash, but it's true. And think of it. A foreigner would think our system is awesome, and relative to other countries, it is awesome. But we are BUYING our jobs. Education in the sense college is pitched is not education. It's not awareness, it's technical skills, polishing students to be the best cogs in the machines. And how do you get to be a better cog? Go to the better schools and KNOW people in the KNOW.

You have to look at what makes money. Look at all the students spending FOUR FREAKING years learning something, anything. Now, if you spent that SAME amount of time learning say...real estate, sales, stock market investing, or any other actual, known money making business, where would you be? And during that SAME time, could you not take the same class you'd have taken during college? Yes.

The Kids I've seen do TRUELY awesome...
- would have had the drive with or without college.
- had contents, and the degree only 'certified' them to whom ever it concerned that they were educated, they fit a mold and could now do whatever was asked of them.

I've never seen some idiot magically get IT and become wealthy. Even close friends who did OK in their respective studiets, 3.0 or better, aren't make BANK. They just have ACCESS to jobs they otherwise wouldn't have. Is that what they hoped with a degree? Probably not. They probably saw all the glitz and glamor a bright eyed kid has.

I was at a financial conference over the weekend, and many of the up and comers were 29, and banking 300k plus, and growing. What separates them from say...a near Doctorate in any other field? Desire. Passion. Will. Not education. You can cram anything upstairs. What makes the TOP schools different isn't a harder class; you can find that anywhere. It's the INtangibles. Connections. Reputations. Job opportunities. Notorious speakers, alma mata, and professors. The mode of thinking, not the quality of the text book.

Results MAKE money. Education she be geared toward that end, and that end alone. Great effectiveness, not efficiency. You could be efficient at making a problem worse, or effective at making things go right. There's a difference. For instance, cold calling isn't the most EFFECTIVE way to make more sales. If all you need is say, 5 sales in a week to be a TOP sales person, and you spend the MAJORITY of your time calling NON-prospects, you're not effective. It might be EFFICIENT relative to knocking on doors, but it isn't effective at getting you closer to the target market that will get you 5 sales in a week. That's why...who cares about the DNC list? Anyone NOT on it isn't a worthwhile prospect ANYWAYS.

Say with lifting. You do what you do to get results. What you're doing might build the base of a results ladder, or be directly responsible for the result. No matter what it is, you do it because it gets you closer to what you want and not further.

Is college constructed that way?

-take 4 years to learn a broad range of information, when you're hired for very specific tasks.
-costs a lot of money relative to the time put forth, and far more than the effort most give it.
- the money invested is NOT guaranteed, unlike the loans, or if you'd put it in a house or CD. here 150k dropped in some kids brain, encompasses "finding themselves" on 4-8% interest rates. you want to find yourself? do it when the bank clock is NOT ticking!
- are you learning from people who have been there, or are they just great at assigning homework, correcting papers, reiterating textbooks, and public speaking? who are your professors? life long students or people who have BEEN THERE, DONE THAT types?

I never see the point in DRAGGING out finance classes, when I blasted through as many finance books and pages in a month or less!

I think college is the BIGGEST c0ckblock to success. I can't say for ALL people, but people who attribute COLLEGE to their success, were already successful. End of story. It may have awakened a latent giant, but nonetheless, it wasn't the REASON for it. Even when you have the degree...you still have to apply for jobs, work the job, look good in the interview, invest/save the money and so on. It isn't like College = Riches. You are better than a FAILED athlete with nothing to fall back on, but it isn't the GOLDEN WONKA ticket kids are lead to believe.

"I'm studying so and so, I'm going to make bank." Well, hopefully its b/c they are confident and hard-working, NOT b/c the degree does it. A degree in ANYTHING can make you money IF you work at it. There's various WAYS to make money in different fields. So the degree is very generic. In medical, you could be a PA, a DR, or even in Pharma sales or Medical devices sales. Maybe even research? Perhaps you break off and invent a new field.

People have to snap the umbilical cord that traps their mind and free thought.

College is a stepping in life. It's like a SLIGHTLY longer book that you may purchase from B&N, but it isn't an Auto Pilot that grants you eternal life and wealth.

A-Unit
 

The Forms

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~attrACTION~ said:
You know I read a lot of the responses in this thread, and I want to make a comment that hasn't been mentioned much or probably at all.

To those of you who can't find a job, it's your fault, what were you thinking choosing that major 4+ years ago? College shouldn't be treated like the continuation of high school.

If you can't find a job it really is your own problem. Stop blaming the schools. Sure, schools are a business, I think that's a given. But just because that business exists, it doesn't mean it their fault that you fail at finding a job. That's like blaming the DMV because you got in a speeding ticket.

It's called marketing yourself. The job won't fall in your lap. You may have to send out 300 resumes, get yourself out there. I haven't graduated yet and could care less for getting a job with my degree, because self-promotion is the name of my game. Most people don't really try.

It doesn't matter what you know or what your skills are. It doesn't matter if you studied liberal arts or engineering. It matters who you know, and how badly you want a good job. Skills are pointless if you don't know how to market yourself. The other day I was just browsing through my local CraigsList and noticed some web projects. I have enough going on but thought hey I'll just email this one. I made $300 in a day making a quick 5-page blog for someone. I'm sure there are other more qualified people out there. I know a couple people who are studying Graphic design or already graduated with it who have crappy jobs and barely find projects. But it's not like opportunities are not available.

I've noticed, in my opinion and experience, that people would rather complain than actually try and change.

edit: As for myself, I'm studying business/accounting in school. I could care less for the degree. Why am I doing it? Honestly, I thought about dropping out 2 years in, so I figured I should just finish it. School is an awesome place to network with other people, and it's very easy to find potential employees and employers, because you are going to classes with the future ______ of the nation, basically. Besides, there are so many great resources available, etc. so even if I don't care about the actual classes, I'm using the time there to the fullest. It's great.
Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear, but I'm looking for advice from people who know what they're talking about.

attraction, it's real easy to shoot your mouth off when you're still in the safety of still being in college. You haven't had to join the real world yet, so any minor victory (like getting a project) is a point in your favor, but when you DON'T have a project it doesn't count against you because you're still in school. The game your playing can't be lost. And it doesn't apply to people in the real world.

What I started this thread for is the guys who have liberal arts degrees that found a way to work it in their favor. Maybe show some things that I haven't thought of yet to turn the tables in my favor. How do you make the degree marketable to potential employers on a resume? stuff like that.

Arguing against me ever having GOTTEN the degree is pointless, and outside the scope of this thread. As is arguing about what someone COULD have majored in.
 

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backbreaker said:
trust me when I say working for yourself isn't for everone. depending on what you are doing....
Ahhh, but there lies the problem. Instead of working for yourself, do what the rich do; have people work for you. :up:
 

The Forms

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I don't necessarily judge success by the amount of money I make. I've been offered jobs where I'd be making more money than I make now, but I don't want to get involved with something with no future. It's respectable that you can make a living selling stuff on ebay. I'm excited for you for being able to pull that off. But there's more to the real world, the way I see it, than being able to pay the bills. That's part of it, but not the whole thing.

But there's no future in that game. That's something to pay the rent until you get something respectable, right? Would you feel accomplished if you still were involved in that in, say, ten years? I can't tell someone that that's what I do and feel like a guy with a respectable job. It's a cool way to pay the bills in college, but it's not a career (I hope it's obvious by now that I'm talking about a career more than I'm talking about just getting the bills paid. I've got that covered).

I am accepting the responsibility for my station in life, that's not the issue . I'm in no way failing, I'm just not at the level at which I'd like to be at this stage in my life. So the point of the thread is to get some feedback from guys who have been here before to see what worked for them. That's the larger purpose of this site, don't you agree?

I don't think that just because I have a degree that I should be handed a high paying job on a silver platter. Accusing me of that is a straw-man argument. If you read my previous posts you'd see that I lined up things beyond just having the degree, like joining clubs and groups on campus, keeping a respectable GPA all the while working my way through school handing bags with the airline, and staying with that same company for four years now.

What's really annoying me about this thread is I'm trying to get advice on something, but instead I've just got a laundry list of guys saying things that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about (no offence backbreaker), or guys who've never been in my situation passing judgment without offering any real advice.
 

~attrACTION~

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The Forms said:
But there's no future in that game. That's something to pay the rent until you get something respectable, right? Would you feel accomplished if you still were involved in that in, say, ten years?
Well, I have to say that one of my biggest disagreements with others is this whole aspect of having to base your life on doing the respectable. I could honestly care less. I do have different goals, and all I really want is to build an empire of money, and I haven't really even started yet. But I want to have my own franchises and tons of real estate someday. I don't judge myself by how much money I make either, but the more I make it seems the more freedom I have. I want to travel the world and donate millions to help combat diseases, etc. and I think the best way to do that is to have lots of money. Without money, unfortunately, I don't think I could be in a position to really make a change in this world.

Sure, I have different plans for the future, but it has nothing to do with respect or any of that. There is future in it, million-dollar companies such as i-Soldit are based on selling stuff on eBay. But yeah, I personally have other plans.

The Forms said:
What's really annoying me about this thread is I'm trying to get advice on something, but instead I've just got a laundry list of guys saying things that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about (no offence backbreaker), or guys who've never been in my situation passing judgment without offering any real advice.
But your thread title does say "a rant" with no question mark attached, and since everyone was chipping in their views, I figured I would as well. I think when you put the word "rant" in there, it gave an excuse for everyone to rant as well. I apologize for barging in and joining the rant fest, and I apologize for not contributing anything of real substance to your question. I still think A-Unit had a great point, regardless of your specific situation.

I don't know if this is relevant, but my brother graduated from an Ivy League school with a degree in American History. He just loved the subject. But he had trouble finding a good job out of college. He did a lot of tutoring for SATs at Kaplan and Sylvan learning centers, and also worked 2 other jobs. He finally decided to go to medical school, and now he is a surgeon.

But anyway, best of luck to you. I hope you can find what you are looking for and pull through.
 

backbreaker

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i gotta be honest with you man.. the job you have NOW isn't half bad. My dad does exactly what you do for Continental airlines and i know exaclty what he makes.. it's not chump change. He (and I :)) fly free anywhere anytime.

however if it's just not your "thing" I can understand.

by chance, where do you live?

What's really annoying me about this thread is I'm trying to get advice on something, but instead I've just got a laundry list of guys saying things that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about (no offence backbreaker), or guys who've never been in my situation passing judgment without offering any real advice.
None taken.. however, a liberal arts degree can be substituted for at least 20 other degrees and it's the same problem. You have hundreds of thousands college grads of year and you DON'T have hundreds of thousands decent paying jobs opening up and at least half the ones that do go to people in house/with real world working experience. I don't know how that DOESN'T pertain to you.

Instead of closing your eyes.. open them. I don't have a college degree, but i ran a company with 25 employees. I was the one hiring you, and instead of telling me what I don't' have to say doesn't pertain to you.. why not listen and try to learn what employers are thinking.

when I say high paying, I don't mean 100k jobs.. I mean NOT 25k jobs. When I was in high school, my dad would literary tell me every day of the week, I can go out and go to college, get a degree and make 40k a year.

Speaking on your degree in particular, it's not a "money" degree. People don't get into liberal arts because of the money. But you aren't talking about money you just want A job.. .I get that.

I might have missed it, but what was your GPA when you left? Have you applied for jobs out of state? Hell even out of the country (Japan?)


I understand where you are coming from.. nothing is more say....demeaning than walking across stage, then having a bunch of guys you don't know tell you that you just wasted 4-5 years. And I am sure you didn't. However you do sound like you thought that as soon as you walked off the stage you were going to have 5 interviews setup and have your pick of a decent job, which we are here to say nothing is farther from the truth.

You are actually better off (generaly, not you) going and selling cars for 4 years.. you will make money, and if you are good enough to get into F&I by the time you are 21, you will be banking over 100k... do you know how many doors that opens for the rest of your life, being 21 years old and having achieved managerial status? A good friend of mine is 3 months younger than me an RAN THE ENTIRE Mazda store by the time he was 22. GSM. 196k a year. He got tired of the car business and now is in the investment banking business..something he never would have had the opportunity to do if not for the experience he had.
 

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The Forms

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If your dad works for continental he's in a much better position than I (assuming he's been with the company for a number of years). Their top off pay is a lot higher than mine (I work for a contract company owned by Delta that is slowly taking over the ramp service for most airlines because they can do the same job for half the cost. However, Continental is one of (maybe the only) non-low price carrier that hasn't filed bankruptcy, though my company is still slowly taking over many of their smaller stations).

I make about 22 a year, whereas the guys who do my exact same job at my airport (BNA - or, Nashville, TN) working for southwest make 60 grand. Your dad probably works at an airport where Continental has a sizeable presence, because a lot of the smaller to mid size airports where continental has only a modest presence (especially stations where they mainly operate regional jets and few, if any, mainline aircraft) have been taken over by contract companies. I actually spent 2 years on a Continental contract in Charleston, SC. It's one of my favorite airlines.

In general, I'm trying to get out of the airline business because it's so unstable and they're lowering costs primarily by reducing labor costs. However, the free flights are a great benefit. They make staying in touch with friends who live far away so much easier.

I singled you out because I've read enough of your posts to know it'd take more than that to bother you. I graduated with a 3.1. I actually have been offered interviews for really promising jobs out of town, but Nashville is where I'm going to stay. I'm a musician, and making music for a living is what I'd love to do with my life more than anything else (so, obviously, I spend a lot of time working that front), so leaving town is out of the question.

It's not that I expected to have every decent job chomping at the bit to get at me, but I did expect to have at least a handful of decent interviews seven months after graduation (I graduated in december, btw).

My standards aren't THAT high. Basically what I'm looking for is something that starts about 30 grand that has room for advancement and is not sales or customer service. Not something I foresaw as being something that would be THAT hard to come by for a smart guy.
 

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My brother recently finished his degree in Computer Science, and was looking for a job.
Most of his offers were either freelance computing work (projects like a website and maintenance) from connections of his, or SUPERVISORY work, due to his 2 years serving as an officer in the Army. Very little to do with the actual degree, you see.
 

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(assuming he's been with the company for a number of years).
5 years. he worked somewhere else before that.

working for southwest make 60 grand.
My dad makes about 38k.. but he lives in arkansas.. that's not half bad. He owns a 150k house and it's in one of the premier subdivisions you can get down there. he also owns the side janitorial business. he doesn't do bad for himself but he kills himself doing jobs he really doesn't like.. i couldn't' do it.


I singled you out because I've read enough of your posts to know it'd take more than that to bother you.
(blushing) thanks :) and you are right... I just don't like seeing people go down the same path as my (old) two best friends or my old oneitis... even my mom. she has 3 degrees and doesn't use any of them. and she left with a 3.6 Overall GPA, I know she was on the Dean's List as well,I still have the picture.

but I did expect to have at least a handful of decent interviews seven months after graduation
**** man...

Basically what I'm looking for is something that starts about 30 grand that has room for advancement and is not sales or customer service.
At my old Nissan Dealership the WORST salesman there clocked 45k a year. and that's not an exaggeration. Granted, it was the biggest nissan dealership in the SW and defiantly in arkansas...400 cars a month split between 15 salesman... it's hard NOT to make money. But the car business isn't for everyone.
 

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The Forms said:
They don't HAVE internships for a lot of liberal arts disciplines. I was too busy working at my job all week to be able to go work for someone else for free anyway. No offense, Kev07, but all your posts are about how you just graduated high school and love to grind on girls in clubs. So excuse me if I don't take you seriously in a thread aimed towards guys who have the life experience to maybe help out a little.

It's not that I don't have work experience. I payed my way through college throwing bags at the airport, and now I've moved up to being an Operations Agent (I sit in a room and run all the logistics for the airlines, like balancing the planes so they don't crash, assigning gates, telling the captains where to put their planes, keeping track of all my aircraft, et cetera). On top of that, I've been with the same company for four years now. I graduated with a respectable GPA, and I was in enough clubs and groups around campus to where I kind of felt like I had all my ducks in a row in terms of looking like an attractive potential employee, you know?



This is my chief complaint. It seems as if employers don't care about education, they want college to be a four year trade school. And it works for degree like those listed above, but why does the employer even care if you're educated or not if they don't need an engineer or a chemist?

So is there anyone here on the boards with a liberal arts degree who can give me a little guidance?
I can see where you're coming from, I do post a lot more other stuff, just not as regularly anymore.

And yes, I do have many life experiences (for a 17 year old anyways).

My point was that if you don't have anything to show for going to college other than a degree and a GPA, you're not going to get very far. I'm not talking just internships (whether there are internships or not for a LA degree is beyond my knowledge), there shouild be SOMETHING to show.

A portfolio? previous works, some type of experience, that was my point.
 

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The Forms said:
They don't HAVE internships for a lot of liberal arts disciplines...
I don't know, there's tons who work as TA's. I've worked with several who have used their internships to get jobs as research assistants, junior editors and teachers. It's possible if you network.
 

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I think some of you guys are missing the point. I am a software engineering major, and let me tell you, going to college is paying off big time. I make over $21 an hour as an intern. You are right in a sense college is a buisness, but it shows that you are smart enough to do complete it. Its just another big test, that is all. In my field though, I need college! I am a smart guy, but there is NO WAY im going to teach myself Discrete Mathematics, Differenation, Series, etc. or get a fundamental understanding of calculus based physics. I need people who have been in the industry to tell me just how shizt works, and thats what good professors are supposed to do. But all in all, don't waste your time with liberal arts, it has no applicable value in the real world...it's an easy degree..challenge yourself with something, the US alone needs more DJ engineers, there are few of us, lol
 

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It's all about who you know! I know individuals with degrees in Hospitality Services making great money in sales. I also know several individuals with communication degrees, selling pharmaceuticals and medical equipment--making 60+.

It's all about who you know!
 

Centaurion

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What the...?

You went to college, studied LIBERAL ARTS and are now b!tching about not getting a job? WHAT THE FVCK DID YOU EXPECT WITH A PIECE OF SH!T LIBERAL ARTS DEGREE!!???

Studying something piece of sh!t like that is throwing money out the window. Now on the other hand, if you had gone to college and studied something like say accounting, engineering, law, medicine or finance you would have had a good chance of securing a job after graduation.
 

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I got a question because we are talking about Piece of sh!t degrees. Do you guys think that a degree in Philosophy would be a good thing (this includes a dual major in business administration. My main degree)?

comic_relief
 

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