Positive Masculinity: Where to start?

DJCT

Don Juan
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
108
Reaction score
8
This quote by Rollo describes me accurately:

Rollo Tomassi said:
There are AFCs who get regular sex, but never kill the inner AFC..
The main reason I come to this site and read the Mature Man forum is to learn from more experienced guys how to identify and change the inner processes that keep me an AFC in most areas of my life. I'm here to learn about what Rollo calls positive masculinity. I feel like sometimes I'm on track and then I fall off and get lost.

I've been going through Rollo's and other people's posts but I'm having a tough time sorting it out. Where do I start? Maybe Rollo or somebody else can provide a kind of structure for started on the path? Maybe it's already here on the forum somewhere and somebody that has been here longer can point me to it.

Thanks.

- CT
 

joekerr31

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
3,395
Reaction score
110
Age
50
the inner AFC is nothing more than second guessing yourself. of still being on the path of finding yourself. of still not knowing what you truly believe in. in worrying what others think about you more than what you think of you.

AFC = immature.

not immature as in liking sponge bob square pants (heck, I still watch that show now and then and get a good laugh out of it).

immature as in not knowing who you are.

being AFC is actually a natural state. everyone starts as an AFC. maybe 1% of the male population always knew who they were and were alphas from the get go.

but most people go through much of the beginning of life stumbling around blinding trying to find answers so that they can figure out what it is they really believe in.

once you know who you are are, know what you believe in, and are at peace with your place in the world - when you aren't pretending to be something you aren't to get p*ssy or a job, you are then no longer an AFC.

but here's the twist. you can't reach this point until you actually become who you want to be. if you are overweight, the answer isn't necessarily accepting your obesity. sometimes the answer is to work your butt off to lose the weight so that you are at peace with who you are.

but you shouldn't be losing the weight to increase your status in society, you should be losing it because YOU want to feel healthier and more energetic.

AFC is nothing more than not know who you are, not believing in yourself, not being in control of your destiny, not having the fortitude and motivation to take your life in the direction you want - and instead spending your time thinking that external variables are the answer (if i could only get the hot p*ssy, if i were only rich, if i only had a nice ride, etc.)

when you realize that everything in your life is the result of who you are and the choices you have made - and when you take 100% responsibility for your life and how you are living it - you will shed the AFC skin.
 

The Bat

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
1,035
Reaction score
60
Read up on these threads:

The key is masculinity

The natural order of things - Sexuality defined and explained

Operation Aggressive Stance

Understand that total grasp of the idea of masculinity AND developing it within yourself is not, and will not be, an overnight process. It will take time. It demands patience from you. Be aware of AFC thoughts and mannerisms that you start exhibiting. Combat them accordingly.

Realize that positive masculinity/AFC is not some linear process that follows from path A to path B. It is a mindset. An attitude change. You don't wake up one morning and say, "Today I will be a masculine man." You wake up every morning and say, "Today is another day that I have to conquer. Carpe diem!" If you keep this healthy, positive outlook from day to day, you will notice an inner psychological and spiritual transformation. The matrix will be pulled from your eyes and you will see how the world really works. You will then have a choice: be that beacon of hope OR that mirage which is merely an illusion of hope.

Anything more specific, feel free to ask.
 

Interceptor

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
2,610
Reaction score
135
Location
Florida
I've been trying to take on a more active role here.
I am doing my best with the little time I have to contribute heavily.

I just wanted to say that I have been holding off on the program becaseu I don't feel it will be well received by the public at large here.
I think some people see the word 'chakra' and forget it, they're not paying attention to it anymore.
I have still been working on it from time to time, but I think I will keep for distributing via email.

My resolve still holds.

And I am not ready to quit.

I have been taught many many times, that sometimes the best thing one can do is lead by example.

We have to realize that different people are at different levels of maturity and realization.

I have a more drill seargent mentality in a way, so for me, sometimes I have to really make an effort to get more in touch with the way the 'student' can learn at that point.

I am continually reviewing methods of sharing wisdom and insight.
SS lets me experiment with some too.

Anyway, I am writing this after revisiting the Aggressive thread.

Please remember, that Men are Warriors.

we are Hunters.

We build Empires.

We can also be tender and loving.

Don't neglect those pieces of yourSELF and personality.
And don't 'check out' anymore.
No more 'sleepwalking' through Life, man.
None of that sh*t.
Those days are OVER!

They are OVER.

It is time to Live.
It is time to do battle with the inner Demons.And stop 'checking out' and not dealing.

If you have to do the research, then guess what?
Start doing it.
If you have to ask questions, ask them. Dont be afraid. The majority of us are here to help, seriously.

The true spark of Masculinity is your PASSION for Life.
If you are lacking that Passion, your masculinity is LOW.
If you arent feeling that fulfillment and joy in being a Man, your masculinity will be low.
If you arent actively working on your dream life, then your spark will not manifest!
How to get that spark?

ACTION

Taking ACTION.

That means accepting the Mission and getting your gear on, ammo full, helmet and hitting the ground running....

Accept your Mission.
Work on accomplishing that Mission!

Even if it feels like Mission:Impossible...
You do not have any other REAL Choice here.
What are you going to do?
Lie on the couch watching cartoons, eating pizza, getting fat and feeling dead inside???
Fvck that, man.
(Well, I do love pizza...so maybe I'll make an exception...)



Look, I wont bullsh*t you....


Being a Man means constanly moving forward...like a Warrior.


We strategize.
We plan.
We prepare.
We observe
Deduce
Apply

Adapt
Improvise
Overcome


But we EDUCATE ourselves, man!

We cant stay ignorant!

Enlightenment comes at a price.

Self Realization only happens to those brothers who have the balls to go out ther and make mistakes, but still take pride that they are moving forward.

You cannot afford to just lie there, and pretend to be asleep, or check out. Or ignore your issues.

The greates men I have ever known, who Inspire ME...

Are men who take the time to improve themselves and take chances,and are always informing themselves.

They have DAILY Regimen of Self Care and Self Improvement and Self Cultivation.

No sh*t.

Exercising
Meditation
Researching investment and alternate sources of income
Martial Art
yoga, Zen and spiritual practices...every day!
teaching/mentoing
seeking higher Guidance themselves, they never become 'unteachable'.
working on furthering their education, a Bachelors or Masters
either working their dream career, or actively working towards that goal
painting or calligraphy, some sort of creatvity
helping others and giving back to the community
taking care of their home and family
learning about themselves and dealing with it
staying attentive to proper thinking, acting, behaving, speech, communication, understanding, and maintaining their integrity with each person they meet.
are true to themselves, even when they dont agree with you or someone else, and are STILL your friend and STILL support your endeavours
are always the perpetual student or the 'white belt' mentality
actively working towards operating outside of the system, breaking free of the Matrix
etc..

They are doing it. every day. Every damn day. Good days, Bad days.They are in the trenches. Even with their demons. Even while dealing with 4 kids in the house. And a stack of bills to pay.

They are not swayed.



These men have direction, man.
Direction.

A powerful Internal Compass, and a disciplined self direction that puts the average guy to shame.

If you just want to piss your life away, so be it.

But when you look back at all the time wasted...and for what???
for what Goddamn reason?


Your Ego?
you wanted to look 'cool'?
youre afraid to make mistakes?

Dude, you have to get to the point where your resolve, internal strength, discipline are so powerful that the 'opponent' is 'outnumbered' by you, you over match him.
A freakin Army of One. Army of ME.
Thats you.
You simply out class him in every way possible.

And yes, you will find emotionally turbulent times, with women, loved ones...

times where you may have to take a break.
Times where you may have to walk away , even at the risk of 'losing' someone or something....
just because you have the COURAGE to face your fears and inner demons, and take a good look in the mirror, be honest.....and not buckle...

Your Integrity is simply TOO Strong. Just too strong.
You simply CANT be 'unethical' or uncaring, or self absorbed.

And when you have to assert yourself, in walking away from something that you thought was good for you...
...but after much reflection....it wasnt..
..and thats OK.

We are allowed to make mistakes.

But make successtoo. be triumphant.
Be victorious.
And go for that 'glory' you deserve.

That is your RIGHT.
You OWN it.

Take what is yours and CREATE your Life.

That is what being a Man is all about.

Stay strong.
 

DJCT

Don Juan
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
108
Reaction score
8
Guys - these are some awesome responses. I've bookmarked the thread so I can come back to it.

joekerr31 said:
the inner AFC is nothing more than second guessing yourself. of still being on the path of finding yourself. of still not knowing what you truly believe in. in worrying what others think about you more than what you think of you.

...

when you realize that everything in your life is the result of who you are and the choices you have made - and when you take 100% responsibility for your life and how you are living it - you will shed the AFC skin.
The Bat said:
Realize that positive masculinity/AFC is not some linear process that follows from path A to path B. It is a mindset. An attitude change. You don't wake up one morning and say, "Today I will be a masculine man." You wake up every morning and say, "Today is another day that I have to conquer. Carpe diem!" If you keep this healthy, positive outlook from day to day, you will notice an inner psychological and spiritual transformation.
Interceptor said:
Being a Man means constanly moving forward...like a Warrior.
I agree with all of this. (That was a great post Interceptor)


I even feel like I know most of this stuff and it is natural to me. But only some of the time.

I'll be doing fine, making progress and yet every few days I find I've fallen off the path and become confused and I need a good reminder/kick in the a$$ (like this thread) to get me back on track. I alluded to this in the opening post of another thread I started. I guess the fact that I'm on and off of it means at least I'm moving in the right direction?

Squirrels also had a couple of good posts I read in addition to the comments above that helped me out:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134995
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=106526

Curious if any of you have had this same on again/off again feeling?

Also, another good kick in the a$$ is Emerson's Self-Reliance.

- CT
 

MacAvoy

Banned
Joined
May 10, 2003
Messages
2,940
Reaction score
35
Location
Northern Ontario
DJCT said:
Curious if any of you have had this same on again/off again feeling?
Yes, its a natural part of life. When something goes wrong, you naturally look at your faults & get down on yourself. However the key is grounding yourself and remembering to get back to that spot.
 

Metro3pilot

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Oct 11, 2005
Messages
335
Reaction score
9
Age
54
Joeker nailed it,

others may have as well but after Joekers Response I quit reading so to the others who followed in that track ........ good post as well


:crazy:
 

Rollo Tomassi

Master Don Juan
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
5,309
Reaction score
340
Age
56
Location
Nevada
Positive Masculinity

New Gender Definitions

This pretty much sums up the entirety of the problem - masculinity has been redefined by people (men and women) who have no concept of what it's original definition is. The behaviors and characteristics that constitute what is uniquely masculine aren't being challenged, they've been redefined to fit the purposes of an agenda. In 1905 no one wrote articles on how to "be a man" or bothered to analyze the fundamentals of masculinity, men knew from their socialization what was masculine and women responded to it.
Traditionally, women define what is masculine and men define what is feminine. The characteristics that made a man desirable were ones that presented the opposite to what men similarly found desirable in femininity. Men and their biology defines what in the feminine that arouses them, women react to this and behave accordingly (knowingly or not). 


The root of the AFC endemic lies in the fact that as recently as 50 years ago there has been a concerted effort to "de-masculinize" society, not only in mass media, but down to how we educate and condition our youth to assume masculine and feminine roles. What is being challenged is the predisposition of males in predominantly western culture to even consider what masculinity is. A rugged, stoic, heroic definition of masculinity is losing ground, but is that a good thing? When men become feminized, are we leveling any playing fields or are we progessing towards androgeny and homogenization of gender? Why should masculine traits be of lower value than feminine traits? 

The very characteristics that define traditional masculinity - independence, self-confidence, rugged individualism, physical strength, problem solving and innovation - we are now to believe are (or should be) the aspirations of women to the point that ridicule of the singularly feminine female is the order. In expecting women to be just as masculine as men, while simultaneously expecting them to still embody a feminine ideal, not only puts undue, unrealistic ideals upon them, but also devalues the merits of their own femininity.

That's not to say, given this new gender dynamic, that women are discouraged from claiming their femininity in addition to their masculinity. On the contrary they're encouraged to "handle their business as well as any man" AND "still be a sexy, vivacious woman" every man should want. Yet in opposition to this post-modern gender dynamic, men are not encouraged to 'man-up.' We are told to shape up for sure and that our mascuilinity (as we define it) is a flaw; we're poisoned by our testosterone. Our higher aspiration ought to be becoming more feminized, sensitive, emotional, empathetic, nurturing, etc,.. We should "feel comfortable waxing our legs" stripping away the hair that is the result of our poisoning testosterone. Interestingly enough there are few cries in society to have women cultivate their leg or armpit hair.
Yet the 'masculine' that the Matrix would have us strive for doesn't encourage anything resembling traditionally masculine traits in a male's personality. In fact it's ridiculed to such a degree in mass media and larger society that it's literally akin to a disease.

While women are congratulated for embodying masculine traits with an acceptance of her feminine character, men are conditioned to believe that feminine traits ARE masculine traits and any traditionally masculine characteristics that manifest themselves in us are the unfortuante byproducts of our 'flawed' biology. And the true crime of this gender redefining is the real "double standard" that men should be so feminized as to loathe their innate masculinity, yet still be held liable for uniquely male, traditionally masculine responsibilities and accountabilities by virtue of them being male. It's a gender Catch 22; hate your masculinity, but be held responsible for not "being man enough" to solve uniquely male problems, only to be ridiculed when a masculinized woman steps in to do so and he's then ridiculed for not being as masculine as she is. That's the cycle. This is self-perpetuating negative masculinity that has led to generations of AFCs.

Needless to say, all of this convolutes what masculinity was, is and is intended to be. Before you can set out a plan to live out what I call Positive Masculinity you first have to take into consideration why masculinity has value and should be encouraged as well as cultivated in yourself, your sons and society as a whole. I'm an adherent of the 'build it and they will come' school of thought in this regard, but also understanding how traditional masculinity has been perverted by social contrivance and distilling it back down to it's core fundamentals is imperative in getting back to masculinity as a positive.

So where do you start? With yourself. You must change your mind about yourself as a "m"an and begin thinking of yourself as a "M"an. The first step is to unlearn what feminized conditioning has taught you to the point of it becoming an ego-investment in your personality. You need to become impervious to convenient accusations of "misogyny" or 1950's caveman thinking whenever you assert yourself. The truly positive masculine Man sets himself apart from the Matrix in spite of a world set against him - this unconscious meta-acknowledgment is what makes a woman (and other men) attracted to you as a vibrant, responsible, but firmly confident masculine Man. You have to genuinely live it in order to set an example of it. That doesn't mean you're an uncaring, tunnel vision robot, unwilling to learn from anyone or anything, it means that in spite of a world calling you "egotistical", "caveman", "fragile ego", "macho", "infantile", "Jerk", etc., you
unwaveringly, provably, live out the positive merits of being masculine.
 

triggerman

New Member
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
ooh.. i've learned a lot form the posts. thanks for sharing.

BTW,
new here! :D
 

synergy1

Master Don Juan
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
1,992
Reaction score
192
i read through some posts, didn't read through others. A lot to digest for a beginner I suppose. I'll throw in my two cents.

Where to start? Become unapologetic about who you are. Society's opinion is overrated, although some ideologies have merit. It is up to you to decide which do, and which do not. This board will help you with the ones which do not, like the viral spread of feminism. Once you have accepted what your vision of yourself is, make it reality. Most people have this great plan to start working out and eating better, but thats where it starts and ends.

The hardest part about cultivating positive masculinity is accepting ones current viewpoint is wrong. I would wager to say most folks here had that "ah-ha!" when they realize they needed to change. For the better population, this never happens and think the world is at fault, not them. Once you do and start seeing things a different way, things will progress. It takes time, so good luck with whatever your endeavors are.
 

taiyuu_otoko

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
5,340
Reaction score
3,969
Location
象外
Rollo Tomassi said:
New Gender Definitions

This pretty much sums up the entirety of the problem - masculinity has been redefined by people (men and women) who have no concept of what it's original definition is.
Who redefined it? What was the original definition? Who defined THAT model of society? Did men and women agree to it?

The behaviors and characteristics that constitute what is uniquely masculine aren't being challenged, they've been redefined to fit the purposes of an agenda...

Ok, I'll buy that. Due to different socialization, men are somehow different today than they were at some undefined point in the past.

The root of the AFC endemic lies in the fact that as recently as 50 years ago there has been a concerted effort to "de-masculinize" society, not only in mass media, but down to how we educate and condition our youth to assume masculine and feminine roles.
Again, I'll agree to your restated point. Media, and education would fall under the umbrella of "socialization." So yes, men are different than the way they were before.

Now about that "concerted effort" part. Who got together to form this effort? Was it a secret group? Do media heads meet behind closed doors and decide how to demasculinize people? (Crab people perhaps?) Do they have a specific goal they are shooting for? How will they know they've achieved it? To what ends are they conerting this effort?

What is being challenged is the predisposition of males in predominantly western culture to even consider what masculinity is. A rugged, stoic, heroic definition of masculinity is losing ground...
Ok, I got it. Women are getting manlier, and men are getting less manly.

Question: What evolutionary circumstances gave rise to what you are calling masculine traits (independence, self confidence, rugged individualism, physical strength, problem solving)? Do those circumstances exist today exactly as they did before? Have ALL those masculine characteristics which you listed been dropping concommittantly?

..men are not encouraged to 'man-up.' We are told to shape up for sure and that our mascuilinity (as we define it) is a flaw; we're poisoned by our testosterone. Our higher aspiration ought to be becoming more feminized, sensitive, emotional, empathetic, nurturing, etc,.. We should "feel comfortable waxing our legs" stripping away the hair that is the result of our poisoning testosterone. Interestingly enough there are few cries in society to have women cultivate their leg or armpit hair.
Yet the 'masculine' that the Matrix would have us strive for doesn't encourage anything resembling traditionally masculine traits in a male's personality. In fact it's ridiculed to such a degree in mass media and larger society that it's literally akin to a disease.
Again, who is telling us that our masculinity is a flaw? Maybe some aspects valued less than 100 years ago, but where is it being called a flaw? And wouldn't these masculine characteristics you champion so be enough to defend these calls to demasculinize ourselves?

Who exactly is behind this "matrix"? And how exactly is it making us strive for something that we don't want strive for anyways? Are these the same people behind the concerted effort you speak about?

...And the true crime of this gender redefining is the real "double standard" that men should be so feminized as to loathe their innate masculinity, yet still be held liable for uniquely male, traditionally masculine responsibilities and accountabilities by virtue of them being male. It's a gender Catch 22; hate your masculinity, but be held responsible for not "being man enough" to solve uniquely male problems, only to be ridiculed when a masculinized woman steps in to do so and he's then ridiculed for not being as masculine as she is. That's the cycle. This is self-perpetuating negative masculinity that has led to generations of AFCs.
If we were so masculine before these evil females made us want to shave our hair, how did we get conned into it? Isn't it the choice of MAN (as a collective) to accept or reject the collect shaming efforts of women? Did the evil matrix create the generations of AFC's you speak of, or was it the other way around?

Needless to say, all of this convolutes what masculinity was, is and is intended to be. Before you can set out a plan to live out what I call Positive Masculinity you first have to take into consideration why masculinity has value and should be encouraged as well as cultivated in yourself, your sons and society as a whole. I'm an adherent of the 'build it and they will come' school of thought in this regard, but also understanding how traditional masculinity has been perverted by social contrivance and distilling it back down to it's core fundamentals is imperative in getting back to masculinity as a positive.
Ah yes, on to the solution. You are, of course, making the assumption that what was beneficially masculine 100 or so years ago would be beneficially masculine now. Can you be sure that is the case? Western civilization is at the tail end, or may have already seen the end of, the industrial revolution. Jobs requiring sexually dimorphic physical labor are becoming less and less necesary. So some masculine traits, at least, are obviously not valued as high any more.

So where do you start? With yourself. You must change your mind about yourself as a "m"an and begin thinking of yourself as a "M"an. The first step is to unlearn what feminized conditioning has taught you to the point of it becoming an ego-investment in your personality. You need to become impervious to convenient accusations of "misogyny" or 1950's caveman thinking whenever you assert yourself. The truly positive masculine Man sets himself apart from the Matrix in spite of a world set against him - this unconscious meta-acknowledgment is what makes a woman (and other men) attracted to you as a vibrant, responsible, but firmly confident masculine Man. You have to genuinely live it in order to set an example of it. That doesn't mean you're an uncaring, tunnel vision robot, unwilling to learn from anyone or anything, it means that in spite of a world calling you "egotistical", "caveman", "fragile ego", "macho", "infantile", "Jerk", etc., you
unwaveringly, provably, live out the positive merits of being masculine.
Sound advice to be sure. Allow me to put forth my contrarian summary.

Men and women are changing due to changing circumstances. In the way we relate to each other, and in our home lives and work lives. However, these circumstances are not due to any contrived secret group, or matrix, or clandestine media conglomoration. It is merely due a changing environment, the same force which drove us to evolve from single cells to who we are today. We, as animals, react to our environement. And in the last 100 years, specifically in the last 20 or 30, the type of money making ( and power earning) jobs do not require old school masculinity like they used to.

What is breaking down as well, as Rollo points out above (although he assumes a different cause they I do) is the "Matrix" which kept men and women in single life long relationships, and men with most of the earning and hence the power. What the removal of this matrix does, is not create a new matrix, it exposes man's inherent flaws THAT WERE ALREADY THERE.

Good news and bad news. The matrix that used to exist that kept your woman in place for you (job requirements, church laws, social laws, control of information) is no more. That is bad news if you are naturally an AFC.

Bad news is, your on your own. The old frame that kept the status quo is gone. You need to determine what you want from life and BUILD YOUR OWN FRAME through which to achieve it.

Good news is, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. You can BUILD WHATEVER GODDAMN FRAME YOU WANT, and take whatever you like from the world.

How to do this? Follow Rollos's advice above. But don't be an old school man, a man where you had certain definitions to fill in, a man that had a certain role to fill. You now have the ability to CHOOSE TO BE ANY GODDAMN MAN YOU WANT TO BE!

I'll give you a hint, though, on what is probably NOT going to be considered MANLY behavior, and that is blaming some ultra powerful super secret feminine controlled matrix that is controlling you and keep you from being the man you want to be.
 

Rollo Tomassi

Master Don Juan
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
5,309
Reaction score
340
Age
56
Location
Nevada
taiyuu_otoko said:
Who redefined it? What was the original definition? Who defined THAT model of society? Did men and women agree to it?

Again, I'll agree to your restated point. Media, and education would fall under the umbrella of "socialization." So yes, men are different than the way they were before.

Now about that "concerted effort" part. Who got together to form this effort? Was it a secret group? Do media heads meet behind closed doors and decide how to demasculinize people? (Crab people perhaps?) Do they have a specific goal they are shooting for? How will they know they've achieved it? To what ends are they conerting this effort?
For the most part you're asking the same question here, just restated. And you'll be happy to know I agree with your perspective to a certain degree as well, but there is no grand conspiracy, no secret mysterious cabal pushing a negative perception of masculinity - and this is exactly why what I've described in my first post is so pervasive. There doesn't need to be a unitary group of 'anti-men' bent on some melodramatic goal of world domination, this feminized ideal is already embedded in our socialization.

It doesn't need one because the mindset is already so installed and perpetuated by society at large it's now taken for granted and self-replicating. AFCs raising AFCs leads to still more AFCS. Media conglomerates don't realize their own bias because it's been standardized, encouraged and reinforced in them, and society, over the course of several generations now.
What's to question, especially when calling attention to the feminization dynamic leads to ridicule and ostricization?

So to answer your question, no, there is no illuminati shadow conspiracy and that's exactly what makes feminization normalized and overlooked.



taiyuu_otoko said:
Question: What evolutionary circumstances gave rise to what you are calling masculine traits (independence, self confidence, rugged individualism, physical strength, problem solving)? Do those circumstances exist today exactly as they did before? Have ALL those masculine characteristics which you listed been dropping concommittantly?

You are, of course, making the assumption that what was beneficially masculine 100 or so years ago would be beneficially masculine now. Can you be sure that is the case?
I understand where you're trying to lead with this; it's fairly obvious from your summation - essentially you see the feminization of men as a positive "balance" that's predicated upon a need to adapt to changing social conditions. You'll be surprised to know that I can appreciate this perspective as well, only I see feminization as an imbalance.

In the past it has served men to be masculine. There was little question as to whether masculinity, and the associated characteristics, was in and of itself beneficial to a collective society - for both genders. What I feel you're arguing here TAIYUU is that you think that the conditions that gave rise to traditionally masculine traits are no longer present - or relevant - and therefore now are either unnecessary or a liability. All of the attributes I listed; independence, self confidence, rugged individualism, physical strength, problem solving, and a host of others that I didn't list, all have applications that go well beyond the times in which they were established as being valuable. The only thing that's changed is their application. In fact masculine traits are so valued that the current societal push for feminization has co-opted them into the redefinition of what 'should' be feminine.

The real question is what's changed that prompted a need for a negative interpretation of masculinity? The problem I have with the logic you're using is that our own biology confounds any gender push towards an androgynous, egalitarian equality between the sexes. We are quite simply the physical and social results of an evolutionary process. Do those same condition exist for us now? Of course not, but our current biologies and our social structures are still affected by that legacy. From our gender psychology, to how we communicate, to how we process information - the sexes are fundamentally different - this is precisely why any societal notion of androgyny or egalitarian equality is frustrated. It's not that one gender is better than another, it's that one may be better equipped to meet certain challenges than another. The genders are meant to compliment each other in order to collectively succeed. It's when they become adversarial, or one attempts to embody both the traits of both genders that problems arise.
 

MoveYourAss...

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Sep 11, 2004
Messages
211
Reaction score
8
Location
Europe
Rollo Tomassi said:
The genders are meant to compliment each other in order to collectively succeed. It's when they become adversarial, or one attempts to embody both the traits of both genders that problems arise.
I agree totally with the first sentence, but not with the second.

You spread much wisdom here, Rollo, and your posts often (hell... all the time) helped and inspired me (just like Pook, A-Unit and the other masculinity-"Gurus").

This for sure is (apart from your writing skills) due to the fact that I came from an AFC status. THEN, of course, re-dis-covering, nurturing, growing and protecting your male side (Yang) is essential.

The last sentence of the quote, however, seems to construct a distinct dualism. And yes, there is a dualism. But I believe that there are some (sometimes) traits in REAL (not idealised theory) men that would fall into the theoretical realm of females (let's call it Yin). And I believe this is ok. It's not a rigid division, it's more of a flow. It actually helps you (at least me), and the people around.

Expressed differenty: I believe it is very important for a man TO BE ABLE to behave like a total caveman (e.g. fighting etc.) when necessary or appropriate. But also TO BE ABLE to NOT behave like this when it's not.

You do of course have to be brave enough to REALLY EXPERIENCE your skills and not to take this as some wise excuse !!!
 

Humble Young Man

Don Juan
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
27
Reaction score
0
joekerr31 said:
the inner AFC is nothing more than second guessing yourself. of still being on the path of finding yourself. of still not knowing what you truly believe in. in worrying what others think about you more than what you think of you.

AFC = immature.

not immature as in liking sponge bob square pants (heck, I still watch that show now and then and get a good laugh out of it).

immature as in not knowing who you are.

being AFC is actually a natural state. everyone starts as an AFC. maybe 1% of the male population always knew who they were and were alphas from the get go.

but most people go through much of the beginning of life stumbling around blinding trying to find answers so that they can figure out what it is they really believe in.

once you know who you are are, know what you believe in, and are at peace with your place in the world - when you aren't pretending to be something you aren't to get p*ssy or a job, you are then no longer an AFC.

but here's the twist. you can't reach this point until you actually become who you want to be. if you are overweight, the answer isn't necessarily accepting your obesity. sometimes the answer is to work your butt off to lose the weight so that you are at peace with who you are.

but you shouldn't be losing the weight to increase your status in society, you should be losing it because YOU want to feel healthier and more energetic.

AFC is nothing more than not know who you are, not believing in yourself, not being in control of your destiny, not having the fortitude and motivation to take your life in the direction you want - and instead spending your time thinking that external variables are the answer (if i could only get the hot p*ssy, if i were only rich, if i only had a nice ride, etc.)

when you realize that everything in your life is the result of who you are and the choices you have made - and when you take 100% responsibility for your life and how you are living it - you will shed the AFC skin.



"being AFC is actually a natural state. everyone starts as an AFC. maybe 1% of the male population always knew who they were and were alphas from the get go. "

Everything else you said is true but this is not, being AFC is not an actual state, we are all born non-AFCs but social conditioning made 99% of us AFCs. It's the media and society (external forces) which made most of us AFCs, AFCness isn't our natural state.
 

countermart

Don Juan
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
175
Reaction score
16
Location
The edge of destiny
To me being a man/masculinity means being willing to take the responsibility to accept the potential for pain and acting anyway. In a word it is about, “courage”.

Countermart
 

Luthor Rex

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
1,051
Reaction score
55
Age
48
Location
the great beyond
taiyuu_otoko said:
Who redefined it? What was the original definition? Who defined THAT model of society? Did men and women agree to it?
No one "defined" it. It existed in nature before any ideology or philosophy. The best we can do is *discover* what masculinity is.

Because masculinity exists in nature, it can't be "defined" in the normal sense. "Defining" something implies you can re-define it. We can't redefine it. But we can discover new aspects about it.

Men and women are changing due to changing circumstances. In the way we relate to each other, and in our home lives and work lives. However, these circumstances are not due to any contrived secret group, or matrix, or clandestine media conglomoration. It is merely due a changing environment, the same force which drove us to evolve from single cells to who we are today. We, as animals, react to our environement. And in the last 100 years, specifically in the last 20 or 30, the type of money making ( and power earning) jobs do not require old school masculinity like they used to.
Superficial things are changing yes. Since we first showed up in Africa thousands of years ago our costumes have changed but what is fundamentally driving us has not. Evolution of our deepest traits takes longer than a few thousand years to change. Sure we look different, and different groups have different IQ's - you can see the same thing in various dog breeds, but in the end they are all dogs with the same dog nature even if superficial traits have changed.

As for you comment about "old school masculinity" this reveals just how much the feminists have brainwashed you. Let's go back to be about as "old school" as we can get: ancient Greece.

The word "vir" is Latin and it means "man". English gets several words from this root: "virility" - a man's sexual potency, "virgin" - one who has not 'know' a man, and "virtue" - which translates literally as manliness.

The ancient world recognized four main virtues, four aspects of manliness - wisdom, courage, justice and temperance. Is anyone really dumb enough to believe that we no longer need these character traits? Does anyone really think that if a large group of men in society dedicated themselves to living out their manliness through these manly (virtuous) traits that the world will somehow get worse?

Feminism took manliness and redefined it as thuggery, wife beating, addiction, etc. It's all bullsh!t. They are a conspiracy in the sense that they are an organized cultural and political movement who try to convince people that they have the truth and we should all live the way they want us to.

But feminism will fail for the same reason socialism has always and will always fail -- because it goes against deep human nature too much. Socialism is a great political system, FOR ANTS, but not for human beings. Good idea, wrong species. The same is true for feminism - bad idea, wrong species.
 

scrouds

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
1,235
Reaction score
42
Location
Orlando, fl
Humble Young Man said:
"being AFC is actually a natural state. everyone starts as an AFC. maybe 1% of the male population always knew who they were and were alphas from the get go. "

Everything else you said is true but this is not, being AFC is not an actual state, we are all born non-AFCs but social conditioning made 99% of us AFCs. It's the media and society (external forces) which made most of us AFCs, AFCness isn't our natural state.
I agree. The natural man state is beaten out of most kids by kindergarden. They get the kids indoctrinated early.
Hell, it starts by the kids copying adult male behaviour.

In the age old question, nature or nurture, this is nurture's effects.
 
Top