Please help me bulk up..sick of being skinny!

[Smack]

That is what cleans are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TlbDQUWs0s

And where did I say cleans were not complex or technical? They are more complicated than the deadlift or bench press, but definitely not something you can't learn on your own.

Well again I'm relying on the fact that some of the biggest proponents of the Olympic lifts, like Poliquin, don't recommend that people learn them on their own.

But cleans use almost every muscle in the body, except for the arms. Rows use mostly the arms and upper back. They don't use the legs at all for example.

For a very short period of time. There is very little time under tension in the clean compared to the row, and no eccentric portion.

Also, cleans will help your deadlift a lot more than rows will, and a stronger deadlift will make you bigger (and prettier ) than a stronger row.

You don't need to do cleans to get a strong deadlift. I've seen Andy Bolton's training and did not see cleans. There are some guys with monster deadlifts like Coan who do cleans, but they are the minority.

Rows have more of an 'aesthetic' effect, hence why bodybuilders do them rather than cleans.

Do you have a link?

Search for "olympic".

What else does Rippetoe say that you think it stupid?

Plenty of things, from a Q&A at Elitefts he says safety squat bar squats are 2/3 less effective because there is no hamstrings involved, that trap bar deadlifts are dangerous because the bar is not stabilised against the hips, and that you can squat what you can set up in a monolift.

The guy is a moron and I wouldn't take his advice past the beginner stage.

If you want to get big and/or strong for anything other than a bench press competition, a strong deadlift is more important than a strong bench press. And cleans will help your deadlift more than rows will.

If you're at the stage where SS is the best thing for you then you don't need anything other than deadlifting to get better at deadlifting. And once you are past that stage then there are tons of other more effective lifts that are better for hypertrophy that will benefit your deadlift more (e.g. rack pulls, snatch grip deadlifts, deficit deadlifts).

 

[Kerpal]

Well again I'm relying on the fact that some of the biggest proponents of the Olympic lifts, like Poliquin, don't recommend that people learn them on their own.

We're talking about power cleans here, not the full snatch and clean and jerk. Although i still think you can learn the latter on your own, they are more complicated than the power clean.

You don't need to do cleans to get a strong deadlift. I've seen Andy Bolton's training and did not see cleans. There are some guys with monster deadlifts like Coan who do cleans, but they are the minority.

You don't need cleans, but they sure do help. And many powerlifters (including Bolton, Westside Barbell, etc) do speed work, which serves the same purpose as cleans - making you more explosive, which has a carryover to the deadlift.

Rows have more of an 'aesthetic' effect, hence why bodybuilders do them rather than cleans.

Again, a strong deadlift will be more 'aesthetic' than a strong row. A stronger deadlift will make more muscles bigger than a stronger row, and more muscles = prettier. And cleans will make your deadlift stronger than rows will.

Plenty of things, from a Q&A at Elitefts he says safety squat bar squats are 2/3 less effective because there is no hamstrings involved, that trap bar deadlifts are dangerous because the bar is not stabilised against the hips, and that you can squat what you can set up in a monolift.

I don't know about the SSB squats, didn't understand the monolift comment, but I agree with him on the trap bar. I never really understood the point of using a trap bar anyway.

If you're at the stage where SS is the best thing for you then you don't need anything other than deadlifting to get better at deadlifting. And once you are past that stage then there are tons of other more effective lifts that are better for hypertrophy that will benefit your deadlift more (e.g. rack pulls, snatch grip deadlifts, deficit deadlifts).

IMO cleans/speed work are better than all of those as an all around movement for increasing the deadlift. I see rack pulls and etc. as more of a way to work specific weak points.

 

[Smack]

We're talking about power cleans here, not the full snatch and clean and jerk. Although i still think you can learn the latter on your own, they are more complicated than the power clean.

Well that's just your opinion and it contradicts some of the best strength coaches who are proponents of olympic lifts of athlete's opinions.

You don't need cleans, but they sure do help. And many powerlifters (including Bolton, Westside Barbell, etc) do speed work, which serves the same purpose as cleans - making you more explosive, which has a carryover to the deadlift.

It's actually a bit more complicated than that, and they do not use a complicated lift like cleans for DE work anyway.

Again, a strong deadlift will be more 'aesthetic' than a strong row. A stronger deadlift will make more muscles bigger than a stronger row, and more muscles = prettier. And cleans will make your deadlift stronger than rows will.

We're going round and round in circles here. But missing out a horizontal pull leads to an underdevolped physique and can also lead to postural problems. There are two presses in the programme, ergo there should be at least one upper pulling movement.

I don't know about the SSB squats, didn't understand the monolift comment, but I agree with him on the trap bar. I never really understood the point of using a trap bar anyway.

Ever used a trap bar? Why don't you phone up Joe Defranco, Louie Simmons or someone else that gets extremely good use from the trap bar?

IMO cleans/speed work are better than all of those as an all around movement for increasing the deadlift. I see rack pulls and etc. as more of a way to work specific weak points.

In which case you're wrong. I've never known of anyone use cleans and cleans only to increase the deadlift. Deficit and rack deads are extremely popular for increasing the deadlift - even by those that do do cleans.

 

[Kerpal]

Well that's just your opinion and it contradicts some of the best strength coaches who are proponents of olympic lifts of athlete's opinions.

This sentence did not make sense to me.

It's actually a bit more complicated than that, and they do not use a complicated lift like cleans for DE work anyway.

What is a bit more complicated? Explain. And many powerlifters have used cleans for DE work. But we're not talking about powerlifters anyway.

We're going round and round in circles here. But missing out a horizontal pull leads to an underdevolped physique and can also lead to postural problems. There are two presses in the programme, ergo there should be at least one upper pulling movement.

Rippetoe addresses this in the book, hence why you're supposed to have one overhead press workout per bench workout. Also, power cleans involve an upper body pull.

Ever used a trap bar? Why don't you phone up Joe Defranco, Louie Simmons or someone else that gets extremely good use from the trap bar?

Again, you're bringing up elite powerlifters. That is really beyond the scope of this discussion. We're talking about people who just want to look pretty.

In which case you're wrong. I've never known of anyone use cleans and cleans only to increase the deadlift. Deficit and rack deads are extremely popular for increasing the deadlift - even by those that do do cleans.

I never disagreed or said deficit/rack pulls weren't good. You said I was wrong, what was I wrong about here?

 

[EFFORT]

Power cleans are a great exercise but extremely unnecessary for people just trying to build a pretty body.