Playing the LTR Game Before Being In LTR

[wifehunter]

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

I will never stop haha

She knows.

This is your issue. She knows this to be true because of your behavior and your reputation that preceeds you. Women typically want a man who they really like who they know is into them and just them. Its wonderful if said guy has high value in the marketplace and could get other women...that is value...but nobody wants to think their partner is constantly out shopping for the next great thing, the next great time, etc. So women want to know you are serious about them. Not the first week or first month but as things progress, they want the security of knowing and trusting that their man isn't out running about spinning other plates behind their back and lying to their face about it.

This is the problem the well known player and the too smooth ladies' man have. The better women are going to be flattered by the attention but will pass you up in the end because they don't want the headache of dealing with a man who is known to have a roving eye. Would you want your girlfriend to be known to have a roving eye? Oh. You wouldn't grant that sort of woman girlfriend status? Exactly. Many women will not grant players boyfriend status either. It's too much mental anguish and worry. The flip side of that also happens to be that if you actually were ever to become exclusive, it can be hard for a woman to trust you, and that is it's own set of issues starting with the annoyance of being suspected of things you are not actually doing. But I digress.

If you actually do like her the only way she is going to know that is by what you do, the investment that you make in her and your consistency in doing it. You are going to have to take a reassuring stance to a greater degree than you might typically because she has her guard way up. Actions tell the story. I am dating a player and have been for a year. I go by what he does. Everything else is BS. Even at this point. And I am always prepared to leave the relationship, which he has come to understand by my actions.

So where you are concerned how are you SHOWING her that you like her? Are you initiating contact? Are you asking her out (especially for non-sexual outings...e.g. one of the earliest dates my BF took me on was to go for a walk/talk at a local greenspace. We held hands, but the focus was on chatting and getting to know one another, not making out.) Are you allowing her to get to know you? Are you opening up? Are you spending time with her on the weekend nights? One hallmark of a player is that he is around for dates during the week, but vanishes over the weekend. Are you doing that?

Do you disappear without rhyme or reason for days at a time? She will assume that you are marginally interested in her and/or that you are spending time with other women if this is the case.

What are your actions telling her about your level of initiation and investment? That is what smart women are going to pay the most attention to when dating a player or a ladies' man. It is very hard to decieve with your time. Sure you could be in contact with other plates in the men's room or something like that but if you spending time with her in person to the exclusion of other women then you are making an investment in her and you are excluding other plates. If you are taking her out in public where you'll be seen together by others you are making an investment in her and excluding other plates. If you are spending money on dates, you are making an investment. How is she going to view your level of investment in her?

Netflix and chill on a Tuesday night is not high investment. Buying tickets and taking her to a performance that she likes and going to eat together before or after IS a higher investment. And doing it more than once every couple of weeks.

So look closely at your behavior. If you were dating you and you had only had your actions to go by, what story are your actions telling her? You can't expect her to jump into bed with you if she doesn't want to be a pump & dump and you are not giving her a consistent reason to believe what you say by the congruency of your actions. If your words are charming but your actions say "PLAYER!" and there is no consistent investment, then she is a wise chick.

Is that too much work? Too high a standard? Then you'll pass her up and she'll preserve her standards. Everybody reveals who they are in the end. Everybody wins. You cannot expect to have your cake and eat it too if what you want is in direct opposition to what she wants.

Being a player is great until your realize that the playa behavior actually selects against girlfriend material girls in many instances.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Advice from the old lady:



She knows.

This is your issue. She knows this to be true because of your behavior and your reputation that preceeds you. Women typically want a man who they really like who they know is into them and just them. Its wonderful if said guy has high value in the marketplace and could get other women...that is value...but nobody wants to think their partner is constantly out shopping for the next great thing, the next great time, etc. So women want to know you are serious about them. Not the first week or first month but as things progress, they want the security of knowing and trusting that their man isn't out running about spinning other plates behind their back and lying to their face about it.

This is the problem the well known player and the too smooth ladies' man have. The better women are going to be flattered by the attention but will pass you up in the end because they don't want the headache of dealing with a man who is known to have a roving eye. Would you want your girlfriend to be known to have a roving eye? Oh. You wouldn't grant that sort of woman girlfriend status? Exactly. Many women will not grant players boyfriend status either. It's too much mental anguish and worry. The flip side of that also happens to be that if you actually were ever to become exclusive, it can be hard for a woman to trust you, and that is it's own set of issues starting with the annoyance of being suspected of things you are not actually doing. But I digress.

If you actually do like her the only way she is going to know that is by what you do, the investment that you make in her and your consistency in doing it. You are going to have to take a reassuring stance to a greater degree than you might typically because she has her guard way up. Actions tell the story. I am dating a player and have been for a year. I go by what he does. Everything else is BS. Even at this point. And I am always prepared to leave the relationship, which he has come to understand by my actions.

So where you are concerned how are you SHOWING her that you like her? Are you initiating contact? Are you asking her out (especially for non-sexual outings...e.g. one of the earliest dates my BF took me on was to go for a walk/talk at a local greenspace. We held hands, but the focus was on chatting and getting to know one another, not making out.) Are you allowing her to get to know you? Are you opening up? Are you spending time with her on the weekend nights? One hallmark of a player is that he is around for dates during the week, but vanishes over the weekend. Are you doing that?

Do you disappear without rhyme or reason for days at a time? She will assume that you are marginally interested in her and/or that you are spending time with other women if this is the case.

What are your actions telling her about your level of initiation and investment? That is what smart women are going to pay the most attention to when dating a player or a ladies' man. It is very hard to decieve with your time. Sure you could be in contact with other plates in the men's room or something like that but if you spending time with her in person to the exclusion of other women then you are making an investment in her and you are excluding other plates. If you are taking her out in public where you'll be seen together by others you are making an investment in her and excluding other plates. If you are spending money on dates, you are making an investment. How is she going to view your level of investment in her?

Netflix and chill on a Tuesday night is not high investment. Buying tickets and taking her to a performance that she likes and going to eat together before or after IS a higher investment. And doing it more than once every couple of weeks.

So look closely at your behavior. If you were dating you and you had only had your actions to go by, what story are your actions telling her? You can't expect her to jump into bed with you if she doesn't want to be a pump & dump and you are not giving her a consistent reason to believe what you say by the congruency of your actions. If your words are charming but your actions say "PLAYER!" and there is no consistent investment, then she is a wise chick.

Is that too much work? Too high a standard? Then you'll pass her up and she'll preserve her standards. Everybody reveals who they are in the end. Everybody wins. You cannot expect to have your cake and eat it too if what you want is in direct opposition to what she wants.

Being a player is great until your realize that the playa behavior actually selects against girlfriend material girls in many instances.

Those 2-3 high dollar dates are how guys get used.

 

[wifehunter]

Those 2-3 high dollar dates are how guys get used.

Hoez be like "lobster dinner?!?" "score!!!"

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Those 2-3 high dollar dates are how guys get used.

Just like we wouldn't take a guy we barely know to some high $$$ outlays, we shouldnt' take a lady. Theirs plenty of chumps to do that for them. In 2018, those aren't even the guys getting the panties. They let it be a more proper guy to wine and dine her and provide her a feeling of being desired. Then another guy who doesn't really pay her any mind, who slides through occasionally to knock it out at night. That's how it's done in 2018. Hypergamy maximizing it's options.

This is why guys aren't lining up to wine and dine someone, especially if you don't know her and cannot verify HIGH INTEREST. High Interest means she's into you and your fvcking.

 

[BeExcellent]

Those 2-3 high dollar dates are how guys get used.

Not always the case. You as the man need to watch her actions as well. But women who know they have value in the market expect their value to be recognized. Nobody says you have to make the investment. Just don't expect to get women who are actually WORTH the investment. They have plenty of other options who will make the investment.

Everybody wins.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Not always the case. You as the man need to watch her actions as well. But women who know they have value in the market expect their value to be recognized. Nobody says you have to make the investment. Just don't expect to get women who are actually WORTH the investment. They have plenty of other options who will make the investment.

Everybody wins.

Her value doesn't mean I have to go in my pocket. We can spend time and get to know each other without spending a lot of money.

 

[AJ84]

Her value doesn't mean I have to go in my pocket. We can spend time and get to know each other without spending a lot of money.

No you don’t have to spend alot of money but I think what BeExcellent is saying is spot on about the kind of time he spends with her, doing some non sexual stuff to let her know she’s not just a warm body lol.

And yeah women who are looking for something serious are more likely to pass up on investing in players, which for players, shouldn’t be an issue anyway if they don’t want anything serious. There are lots of women not looking for something serious either.

I think there’s two streams of advice happening here which, given the uncertainty of OP’s situation, makes sense: continue gaming other girls and her or make more of an effort with this one girl.

Hard to be sure what side to lean on.

 

[ohrein]

Did you try a 3 date pace? If so, how did you find it?

Yes. I've picked up women in bar game, I've had first night lays off Tinder, etc etc. As I said, the idea of three dates is to force escalation and weed out women who aren't interested. But it's beginner game. I think the most important aspect of game is adaptation. That's what we're all trying to do, develop new skills and adapt to the game. So with that said, I think any hard number rules are ultimately poor game. Great to force action if you're starting out, but otherwise arbitrary.

Personally, I got bored of meaningless sex so it stopped being my focus. Now, that's not to say I'm not sexual and stopped communicating sexual interest, but it wasn't my focus. I think adopting a mentality of "am I having fun?" and "is this woman worth my time" is the evolution.

Whether or not you have sex with a woman within three dates means almost nothing most of the time.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Yes. I've picked up women in bar game, I've had first night lays off Tinder, etc etc. As I said, the idea of three dates is to force escalation and weed out women who aren't interested. But it's beginner game. I think the most important aspect of game is adaptation. That's what we're all trying to do, develop new skills and adapt to the game. So with that said, I think any hard number rules are ultimately poor game. Great to force action if you're starting out, but otherwise arbitrary.

Personally, I got bored of meaningless sex so it stopped being my focus. Now, that's not to say I'm not sexual and stopped communicating sexual interest, but it wasn't my focus. I think adopting a mentality of "am I having fun?" and "is this woman worth my time" is the evolution.

Whether or not you have sex with a woman within three dates means almost nothing most of the time.

Several dates are fine. You shouldn't spend a whole lot of $ to get to know someone. It can and should be done without hardly any cash out lay. Spend TIME.

 

[MrJack]

Advice from the old lady:



She knows.

This is your issue. She knows this to be true because of your behavior and your reputation that preceeds you. Women typically want a man who they really like who they know is into them and just them. Its wonderful if said guy has high value in the marketplace and could get other women...that is value...but nobody wants to think their partner is constantly out shopping for the next great thing, the next great time, etc. So women want to know you are serious about them. Not the first week or first month but as things progress, they want the security of knowing and trusting that their man isn't out running about spinning other plates behind their back and lying to their face about it.

This is the problem the well known player and the too smooth ladies' man have. The better women are going to be flattered by the attention but will pass you up in the end because they don't want the headache of dealing with a man who is known to have a roving eye. Would you want your girlfriend to be known to have a roving eye? Oh. You wouldn't grant that sort of woman girlfriend status? Exactly. Many women will not grant players boyfriend status either. It's too much mental anguish and worry. The flip side of that also happens to be that if you actually were ever to become exclusive, it can be hard for a woman to trust you, and that is it's own set of issues starting with the annoyance of being suspected of things you are not actually doing. But I digress.

If you actually do like her the only way she is going to know that is by what you do, the investment that you make in her and your consistency in doing it. You are going to have to take a reassuring stance to a greater degree than you might typically because she has her guard way up. Actions tell the story. I am dating a player and have been for a year. I go by what he does. Everything else is BS. Even at this point. And I am always prepared to leave the relationship, which he has come to understand by my actions.

So where you are concerned how are you SHOWING her that you like her? Are you initiating contact? Are you asking her out (especially for non-sexual outings...e.g. one of the earliest dates my BF took me on was to go for a walk/talk at a local greenspace. We held hands, but the focus was on chatting and getting to know one another, not making out.) Are you allowing her to get to know you? Are you opening up? Are you spending time with her on the weekend nights? One hallmark of a player is that he is around for dates during the week, but vanishes over the weekend. Are you doing that?

Do you disappear without rhyme or reason for days at a time? She will assume that you are marginally interested in her and/or that you are spending time with other women if this is the case.

What are your actions telling her about your level of initiation and investment? That is what smart women are going to pay the most attention to when dating a player or a ladies' man. It is very hard to decieve with your time. Sure you could be in contact with other plates in the men's room or something like that but if you spending time with her in person to the exclusion of other women then you are making an investment in her and you are excluding other plates. If you are taking her out in public where you'll be seen together by others you are making an investment in her and excluding other plates. If you are spending money on dates, you are making an investment. How is she going to view your level of investment in her?

Netflix and chill on a Tuesday night is not high investment. Buying tickets and taking her to a performance that she likes and going to eat together before or after IS a higher investment. And doing it more than once every couple of weeks.

So look closely at your behavior. If you were dating you and you had only had your actions to go by, what story are your actions telling her? You can't expect her to jump into bed with you if she doesn't want to be a pump & dump and you are not giving her a consistent reason to believe what you say by the congruency of your actions. If your words are charming but your actions say "PLAYER!" and there is no consistent investment, then she is a wise chick.

Is that too much work? Too high a standard? Then you'll pass her up and she'll preserve her standards. Everybody reveals who they are in the end. Everybody wins. You cannot expect to have your cake and eat it too if what you want is in direct opposition to what she wants.

Being a player is great until your realize that the playa behavior actually selects against girlfriend material girls in many instances.

I see what you are saying on a lot of things but some doesn’t make sense to me.

Such as the “roving eye”. The fact is we are not dating we are both single, so why does this even matter? If I was in a relationship I wouldn’t be all up in other attractive girls business but I guess this girl would never know that.

Also disappearing for days at a time just happens naturally, I have things to do and I’m sure she does too. Again we aren’t dating so why would I be texting her everyday? Even in a relationship I wouldn’t be texting everyday although my overall communication would probs increase a bit.

I see your overall point about my actions though but it’s hard to change those actions when I’m not receiving anything from this girl that would make me want to solely focus on her. There is no incentive for me at this time besides the POSSIBILITY that she will change her mind about me when she sees I’m not acting all player-like anymore.

But then she could stub her toe the next day and reverse all her thinking.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

In one of the threads someone mentioned tennis is a terrible way to get to know someone. I disagree 110%. Sporting and physical activities allows bonding to occur. This is how you learn them. Not over a $100 dinner. I learned alot helping a lady paint her house and others roller skating and bowling.

 

[AJ84]

Many women have flushed many long term "serious" relationships down the toilet for lack of fun and chemistry, and then expect you to take them "seriously" well before chemistry and fun are built. It's very odd and very demanding, a charade. She won't take you seriously for another year.

Yes that happens with some women. But, there seems to be this assumption that players are all fun and full of chemistry. That’s not true. Women typically see players as men who use women for sex, whether they are fun to hang out with or not.
Some women date them for a bit but not invest long term knowing that they are more likely to cheat and lie to them than a guy who is not a player.
No one wants to be with someone they can’t trust, men don’t, women don’t. Men who use women for sex are not seen by most women as trustworthy, hence they are not men some women would choose for a LTR. ESP women with common sense and options.
Men don’t chose party girls who like to club every weekend for LTR right? Date? Sure? But possible gf/wife?

 

[AJ84]

How does putting on an act to show you want a LTR mean trust? It doesn't. You can't know you want that person for a LTR immediately.

Well, if you are putting on an “act”.... I think you just answered your own question about trust.

And I never said anything about acting. The OP was considering her as perhaps a potential GF at some point, so my responses to him were in the context of that.

No, you can’t know that immediately if you want them as a LTR, but a player immediately wants her naked, to have what he really wants from her which is just sex, and a guy who isn’t a player doesn’t do that. He wants sex of course, but he’s also interested in getting to know other things about her to determine if she is GF material at some point down the road. So you know, non sexual dates etc....

I’m assuming that any of you guys out there looking for a potential GF are screening for things more than whether or not she swallows? Perhaps her personality, social skills, kindness, ability to read and write etc lol.

 

[AttackFormation]

Many women have flushed many long term "serious" relationships down the toilet for lack of fun and chemistry, and then expect you to take them "seriously" well before chemistry and fun are built. It's very odd and very demanding, a charade. She won't take you seriously for another year.

Incredibly well put comment.

 

[AJ84]

There are women who pass up decent men because they aren’t thrilling enough. Those women are just doing those men a favour, really. Imaging having to always keep her stimulated like some clown. It probably doesn’t feel like it at the time of being passed up for Johnny with the motorcycle and party group, but it’s a blessing yet to be discovered when she’s burned through dozens of men and now complains at 40 of never having kids and blah blah. At least you weren’t part of the carnage.

I know women like that. Boohoo lady.

There are decent women out there who don’t need 24/7 fun and excitement.

 

[ohrein]

my best relationships have started passionately.

You think passion is only possible with sex? Oh dear. Anticipation is where passion comes from.

It's about frame.

Frame is a personal choice. If your frame requires an early lay, that's fine. But that does not make it a good rule for everyone's goals and for every woman. It's possible there are women who would be great in an LTR that for one reason or another you can't have sex with within three dates. I don't think that is an outrageous claim to make.

Beginner game is the waiting game. But most especially the rigid mindset that a man can't lead a set, dictate the pace, have frame, and that being a great foundation for a subsequent relationship.

I agree with that. There's no reason you can't lead the relationship if you don't get a lay by the third date.

"Otherwise arbitrary" is i think the problem here. You see no value in a man leading a set other than it forcing you to escalate. And that is beginner game.

And i think this is common when starting out this game business, and then ltr'ing too soon afterwards.

That is a terrible understanding of my point. I see great value in leading in general. I see no value in picking the number three as your goal. As I said, that number is arbitrary. Why not make it one date? Why not make it five dates? Where did the magical number three come from? It came from what usually happens. The zeitgeist seems to be three dates and many women I've dated choose that arbitrarily as well. But that is not in and of itself a logical reason.

I'd love to hear exactly why the third date is optimum, with some actual facts to back it up rather than personal anecdotes.

That's again with the women who make you wait = high quality trope. Madonna/wh0re complex stuff.

Again, i am referring to a three date pace leading to a subsequent relationship.

Again, you're mis-characterizing my statement. I said "Personally, I got bored of meaningless sex so it stopped being my focus." and you turned it into quality women? I said nothing about the quality of women. There's nothing wrong with women who put out early, I've dated a couple who were great potential LTR's.

You say it was evolution, yet you say that you reverted to doing what you always did all along.

Which is to accept her frame, and follow that through into an easy ltr. Like it always did, and usually does.

And yes, easy ltr means waiting, no sex until exclusivity, and all the rest.

Does anyone really require a forum for this?

No, I was specifically talking about adaptation and eliminating arbitrary rule sets. Three date lay, don't text for three days etc. They are good beginner rules but they do not need to be followed with good game. I text when I want and go for the lay when it feels right. I don't awkwardly force it on a third date because otherwise I've lost frame or something.

If it were meaningless, she wouldn't have made you wait.

My ex had little say in whether i still saw other women. Do you believe yours would allow you such a thing?

I didn't say the sex was meaningless, I said whether it's a third date or the sixth is meaningless. Depends what you mean by allow. Would she still date me if I saw other women? No. Could I see other women if I wanted to? Yes. I like the fact you present this as some sort of evidence that the lay in three dates will somehow give you ultimate control over a woman and that if you get laid on the fourth date then you can't fvck loads of women.

I'm really unsure what any of your points are as mine really just boiled down to focus on the game rather than the score. That's all I'm saying. In my experience, whether you get the lay on date one or date ten, there has been no difference in the outcome so why limit yourself arbitrarily?

 

[ohrein]

Several dates are fine. You shouldn't spend a whole lot of $ to get to know someone. It can and should be done without hardly any cash out lay. Spend TIME.

I never spend much on dates. I like going out for drinks, a walk in the park, cheap meal. I also expect women to offer to pay half on a first date so I know they're actually interested and have reasonable morals.

 

[AJ84]

All men want sex right away, anyone who restrains themselves is acting, including the woman unless she is cruelly choosing the man as a beta provider she is not attracted to physically. Withholding sex is a trick used by women to make themselves seem chaste but it has zero to do with male intentions. You are rationalizing acting based on a charade to assuage the ego. You are asking someone who doesn't even know you to immediately value you for a relationship.

Not what I’m saying at all.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

All men want sex right away, anyone who restrains themselves is acting, including the woman unless she is cruelly choosing the man as a beta provider she is not attracted to physically. Withholding sex is a trick used by women to make themselves seem chaste but it has zero to do with male intentions. You are rationalizing acting based on a charade to assuage the ego. You are asking someone who doesn't even know you to immediately value you for a relationship.

A man might know he'd hit it but choose not to the first night even if offered.