Objective: What "is"...The PHOENIX CHICK???

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Troops!



Hope all is well on each of your respective "fronts" this day. This weekend, I was asked by a guy down here in the “dirty south” why it’s seems so HARD to connect with a woman WORTH connecting with. He was complaining about how despite all the improvements and personal development that he’s been up to the past year--------he STILL ain’t reeling in the kind of women that he feels like he deserves. Judging from his email----------the time in-between good women and good-for-nothing women is making him antsy.

If he’s not careful, he’ll become his own worst enemy. He was on the verge of losing his sense of humor and DOUBTING his mission (to keep bettering himself FOR HIMSELF “first”--------and for some, upcoming, presently “unknown” woman, SECOND).

When I went into “War Room Analysis Mode”, it occurred to me that what this guy was missing was his next “Phoenix Chick”. I dropped some Knowledge Bombs about this on my most recent show-------Mission # 10.

And no, when I say “Phoenix Chick”, I’m not talking about he needs to meet a chick that comes from Arizona to make all his dreams come true…lol.

No, when I say Phoenix Chick-------I’m talking about the mythical bird that resurrects itself bigger, brighter, and better than ever-----just when it looks like all hope is lost and it’s about to die. At just that point, this mythical bird BURSTS forth once again from the ashes of what seems like a hopeless situation.

When remembering this analogy, it occurred to me that this is JUST what most of us------most men, NEED in order to maintain our balance out here on this most unlikely of battlefields that we routinely call “dating and relationships”.

We ALL could benefit for meeting a woman who distinguishes herself from among most of the others by exhibiting her ATTRACTIVE qualities to us rather than the UNATTRACTIVE ones that many of see women displaying ALL THE TIME (seemingly).

For those of us who are aware-----for every one of us who KNOWS the dangers of setting TOO HIGH an expectation on the women that we meet-------there’s an equal (if not higher) number of us who are totally oblivious to the “other” danger------the hidden danger----the “acceptable” danger of having “NO expectations” of the women that we meet.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

What do I mean by “acceptable danger”?

What I’m referring to is the lack of balance in our viewpoints and our outlooks on women as a direct result of our training here----and places “like” here. So Suave is a useful tool. It is a wealth of knowledge. And many of us owe a great debt to SOME of the enlightenment that we’ve received by setting up camp here over the years.

But again-----the Acceptable Danger is that many of due to our repetitive bad experiences with women and the INTENSITY of the time we spend peering into the abyss of what we like to “think” is “the way women ARE”-----we BECOME a bigger threat to ourselves than ANY woman will EVER be to us.

Here in this “bunker”, SOME of us have made it ALRIGHT for men to think LOWLY of women.

Here in this bunker, like soldiers who’ve seen one battle too many we have become comfortable in adopting the mindset of: “Every woman----MY ENEMY.”

Here in this bunker, we have congratulated each other TOO MUCH on getting the best “OF” a woman and we’ve congratulated each other TOO LITTLE whenever one of us is enjoying our lives the best “WITH” a woman.

Understand…this is NOT an indictment on us or an indictment on our community. Rather it is a WARNING to us as a group and a REMINDER to “myself” in particular. Since I began my outreach mission to men over at my own site------I’ve not been surprised by all the challenges a lot of men are facing, but I HAVE been surprised by ONE thing-----and it is THIS:

Most of these guys have NOT given up HOPE that a woman worth their time still EXISTS. There are a lot of guys out there who haven’t got a clue as to how women work, how dating works, how relationships work, or how LIFE works. In this, WE have the “edge” on them-------and I use the edge that I have to help them sharpen themselves for (hopefully) their greater good.

But before we go and have telethon for these guys, here’s one thing that THEY know that MANY of us have forgotten. One thing that these guys DO understand is that NOT all women are “exactly” the same. And they USE that most simple of facts to give THEM the edge over many of “us”.

They STILL believe.

For the most part, they still believe in the concept of “the one”, and the idea that she exists keeps them from falling over into hopelessness and bitterness. Whereas, for the most part, many of us men who “know better” have chosen to live lives believing ONLY in the idea that “this one will be JUST LIKE the last one”.

Neither viewpoint is good. Both mindsets hold within them the mechanisms that will surely bring about their OWN machinations of SELF-SABOTAGE.

The correct viewpoint, the mental, emotional, and spiritually FREEING mindset of course lies somewhere in-between. Which brings me back to the Phoenix Chick. To the untrained guys (the civilians), the Phoenix Chick represents a mostly “unrealistic” fantasy woman that will make all their dreams come true--------that woman that will restore their faith in women.

But to us…(and this is where WE have the edge), to us, the Phoenix Chick represents a woman that we meet that will restore our faith in the POSSIBILITY of having good, healthy, and REALISTICALLY fulfilling relationships with women “in general”.

You see the difference?

One viewpoint comes from wishful thinking ALONE and the other is derived from a realistic understanding of women that exists ALONGSIDE a thriving hope that positive outcomes are STILL possible.

The only other alternative to these two viewpoints is to RESIGN yourself to the dull sameness of living a dating/relationship life of NO EXPECTATIONS. By having no hope-----some men believe they can live a life of emotional safety. There are some men who think that there is no risk involved as long as they aggressively pursue mediocre women or mediocrity “in” women. But what many of them discover is that totally risk-free living is not really living at all.

Sometimes, if you want to shake yourself free from the cold comfort of HOPELESSNESS you just have to “DARE” to HOPE for better things and BETTER WOMEN--------then ACT on it.

As long as men and women LIVE, we’ll always be drawn to each other. We’ll ALWAYS pursue ways of bonding with each other---------whether for superficial or substantive reasons. There is no getting around this for most normal, healthy human beings. Women are IMPORTANT to our lives whether their influence is personal or peripheral. And how we relate to them matters to us. And no matter how some men may like to think otherwise, the PROOF that what I’m saying to you is true that YOU are reading this post on a message board that was created to help you GET better with women.

So in closing, my message to you is simple:

The day you GIVE UP on the idea that your own particular version of a Phoenix Chick still exists is the day when you should probably QUESTION whether or not you STILL have a balanced perspective on men, women, and the nature of realistic human relationships.


RESPECT.


VU

 

[Die Hard]

Good post, sergeant! Food for thought...

 

[squirrels]

I've thought many times that I'd found a "phoenix chick", man. Inevitably, I came to realize I was fooling myself every time. What does that mean in the scheme of your metaphor?

Each time I found a girl who restored my hope in "love", I found out I was wrong...deceived by a release of body chemicals and addicted to positive emotions, perhaps. When I look back at those girls now...and I have had the opportunity to do that...I think to myself, "what was I thinking?".

When I inevitably see them again, I see them for what they really are, now that the "feeling" has passed. And I realize that the so-called "phoenix chick" is just an idol that *I* attached the meaning to, much like ancient neanderthals used to attach divine properties to mundane statues and graven images.

It wasn't the girl who was the source of the good feelings...it was me. My desire to believe that maybe, just MAYBE, there was something to all this chumpish love crap. The feeling I got from choosing to believe that was unbelievable, like some kind of drug-high I imagine, and I affixed it to the closest girl who seemed willing to believe in the chumpish notion of "romance".

That whole thought of, "maybe there's something more here" is so tantalizing that when two people come together who WANT to believe it, they can project it onto each other and revel in it for a short time. For some couples, they are ignorant enough that they can choose to ignore it long enough to maintain a functional marriage or even raise a family. But many of us just realize what it is. Tragically, one usually realizes it before the other and, to avoid snatching that dream away from the other, refuses to tell him for a long time and worsens the magnitude of the heartbreak.

I find myself in an interesting situation that I'm sure some people on this forum relate to more than I myself do. I project that feeling onto pretty much every girl I meet. But as a result, I like to bounce from girl to girl to girl, never giving them time to inevitably disappoint me. I love a woman intensely for a night at a time...then they go home. Out of sight, out of mind...and fresh the next time, if there IS a next time.

I look back sometimes and think about certain girls and think to myself, "Maybe I should've put MORE into this girl or that girl". And then inevitably I run into one of those girls again, sometime later in life, and when I see them, I realize how STUPID I was by thinking that maybe I missed a chance. These women often are completely undesirable once a little bit of perspective settles in, and that feeling of, "Maybe I should've given this one a chance, given her a little more of myself" switches to, "I'm glad I didn't give this one a chance, glad I didn't invest myself in her".

Every now and then, people will surprise me with a sudden flash of insight or passion or sense of adventure and I'm keen to seize on those opportunities. But for most people, they are few and far between...most people are quite content to sit on the couch watching House or True Blood or Grey's Anatomy or whatever the hell it is they watch these days. Not that I don't have plenty of nights like that...the difference, again, is that I feel like I'm letting myself down by being there.

As everyone I know gets older, I feel increasingly alone. When you're young, you constantly meet sources of inspiration, people to look up to. Those kinds of people kept me going, kept me believing in humankind's "divine potential".

As I get older, I meet fewer and fewer of those people. As I said, everyone has specks of gold amidst the dross, but the illusion of the "phoenix chick" becomes weaker with each iteration.

VU, you like to compare it to a war, to a bunch of soldiers hunkered down in a bunker losing faith that they're fighting for anything. But how can they have faith? After this war there will be another, and another, and another. All that shimmers will fade. After a while, for a soldier that's seen countless conflicts and knows how the system works, they're no longer fighting for a goal. They're fighting because fighting is all they know. It's what they do. It's become who they ARE.

Remember John Rambo in "First Blood"? NOTHING IS OVER!! You come home to find that the people you're fighting to protect, the things you're fighting because you believe in them...they're as bad as the things you're trying to defeat. People, by and large, are animals...and "killing" is one of those things that gets easier the more you do it.

I was asked on another thread, by Zekko I think, why I revel so much in going after other guys' girlfriends...why I get so much of a kick out of seducing a "taken" woman. It's SPORT to me. It's no different than playing that guy in a game of football or something. I want an excuse to compete.

But it runs deeper than that. The married man is like the soldier in peace-time. For him the war is never over. Peace is just a brief cease-fire between wars. War is our natural state. People get lost in this crap, thinking, "Once I get out of college, it'll be all over", or "once I get a job, it'll be all over" or "once I get married, it'll be all over".

As if a ring and a piece of paper can bring "peace" when there are still soldiers out there fighting. As if a "marriage" changes the fact that men are men and women are women. Your "peace treaty" in the war of romance is only as good as the army that stands ready to defend it. Your marriage is only as good as the REAL bond between you and this girl. If I step on your land and you're for REAL, the strength of your romance repels me. If not, if you've grown weak and complacent, then it's MY land now.

Does it ever seem ironic to you, "sarge"? The notion of "fighting for peace"?

 

[squirrels]

To continue...

The correct viewpoint, the mental, emotional, and spiritually FREEING mindset of course lies somewhere in-between. Which brings me back to the Phoenix Chick. To the untrained guys (the civilians), the Phoenix Chick represents a mostly “unrealistic” fantasy woman that will make all their dreams come true--------that woman that will restore their faith in women. [/COLOR]

But to us…(and this is where WE have the edge), to us, the Phoenix Chick represents a woman that we meet that will restore our faith in the POSSIBILITY of having good, healthy, and REALISTICALLY fulfilling relationships with women “in general”.

You see the difference?

No, I don't.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the difference at all...except that those of us who have "the edge" seem to think we're somehow "special". That being "in the know" about human nature somehow gives us the power to change it.

Nothing is "different" about these two perspectives. Both are identical...the only difference is that the "enlightened" perspective simply moves the abstraction. The former perspective is that a "real faith in women is just an unrealistic abstract concept", while the latter is that "the abstract concept of faith in women is REAL". Whether it is true that something is false, or false that something is true, the end result is that it is still false.

The pretense that somehow "we", meaning the bunch of us dorks that make up this Internet forum for people who can't get laid, are somehow BETTER than the masses and thus are entitled to believe all the same fantasies that the AFCs believe just because we can put a little bit better-sounding philosophy behind it...that is silly. It's no different than the people who say that "long-term relationships" are different and allow them to be supplicating, lazy sack o' sh!t because they thing that ring and piece of paper grants them some kind of rights, not the force of the "love" behind it.

Everyone likes to focus on the phoenix rising, never the phoenix burning, never the downside of it. They're inspired when the bird rises again, but how do they feel when it burns? The cycle continues again and again...sure, the rising phoenix is a sign of power and hope, but what is the falling phoenix?

Why is it that the up-side conquers the down-side in people's minds when one inevitably follows the other? The phoenix is seen as a triumph of life over death, but never as a triumph of death over life. People like to point out that the bird that dies is born again but not that the bird that is born dies again.

Is it a cycle of fear and hope, or of disillusionment and disappointment? Is "life" the reality, or is "death"?

Which one of us is "disillusioned"?

 

[Jamo]

To continue...


Is it a cycle of fear and hope, or of disillusionment and disappointment? Is "life" the reality, or is "death"?

Which one of us is "disillusioned"?

It is a cycle and in order to live with this you must accept that with all good comes the bad, and vice versa. Another important point is realizing that the only important time of life is the present - not the past or the future (as it is unknown).

When you dwell on the past, it becomes your future as you miss the present and all the things it has to offer. If you are able to practice "non-attachment" you could be considered enlightened. This is a state of being where you enjoy what you have to the fullest, but when those things are not there anymore you feel no loss and are able to move on to other things.

This part of the core teachings of Buddhism, you should read up on it as this dilemma you are facing is very well addressed - with the positive always comes the negative, that is why neutrality is truly nirvana.

 

[Razor Sharp]

The phoenix is a mythical bird for a reason.

While it sounds magical and pretty on paper, in reality it defies the basic laws of thermodynamics

I personally have never come across a girl I ditched that made me regret my choice. That's because once something (or rather, someone) is burned, for me all that's left is ash. You can try to ignite it and fan the flames all you want, but what's done is done.

Now, if you want to flip this analogy to something more metaphorical - something I could corroborate from my own experience, I'd say that this whole Phoenix visualization could apply to a man's perception of women at large. For me chicks really haven't changed that much in the last decade, but the way I look at them sure has.

At first they were these beautiful birds, so delicate and elegant in every way. I worshiped every color of their feathers and assumed that the beauty on the surface was the projection of a heart of gold. I yearned to care for them, make them realize how gorgeous they were and the feelings they inspired.

Then reality smacked the living sh*t out of me and I realized some of these birds of paradise were really just ratty-ass pigeons and chicken-heads underneath their apparent splendor. As a result whenever I saw that beauty again it scorned me, MOCKED me with its falsehood. Any semblance of true affection I had for women was completely burnt to a crisp, its last embers snuffed out through a series of meaningless flings and intentional breaking of hearts.

For years this was how I lived, viewing women through this ashen filter, leaving nothing but a pile of charred emotions in my wake. I was impervious to trifling ideas of love and didn't really care about anything but getting my d*ck wet. It was some of the best, and loneliest times of my life.

Then one day I literally met my match. She was cool as hell. Not clingy/needy - LOVED sex and wasn't interested in games. She let me see other girls and never showed an ounce of jealousy. More than once she'd introduce me to hotties and watch me take them home without flinching. Ultimately we were too much alike to last and our affair was short-lived. But she sparked something in me I had long given up on. Meeting her was the catalyst to a paradigm shift, a new realization that not all women are created equal, and maybe - just maybe, there was someone out there who "fit" me after all.

Fast forward to today and I am seeing two women. They both know about each other and have no problem sharing me. I have very strong, yet distinct feelings for each of them. The intensity of these emotions is not unlike the rise of the phoenix, long neglected for dead yet more vibrant and alive now than ever.

I have no idea how this will pan out, or if I even see myself settling down in the long run. But one thing is certain, my passion for womenkind has been rekindled in ways I never thought possible. I've learned not to make assumptions about any person or gender because the world is just too big to fit into my own prejudices. There's something out there for everyone.

It's taken me over a decade to reach this point, but looking back there was no other way around it. In order to experience something real, all falsehoods and premonitions had to be incinerated leaving behind the type of fuel only a true phoenix could ignite.

 

[Nikoli]

Powerfull post. Leads well into something i've been thinking a lot about lately which I believe may be the most limiting factor that a man can put on himself when meeting and persuing women: BITERNESS. This is the one thing that can shut you down before you begin your hunt and can be so damaging in that it creates a ever spiraling cycle of negativity in you mind and in your soul.

I think it's safe to say we've all been there. Felt such tremendous bitterness in our hearts that we could taste it in our mouth with every word we spoke. Be it a break up, a BPD girl, or just a series of bad relationship and worse endings. During these times of darkness our perciption is completely tainted by this feeling inside us. We feel as if the whole world should see it like we do and those that who don't are ignorant losers or mindless zombies. We embrace a nihilism that runs deep in the human heart cause all our hope and dreams have been crushed.

But, I argue, this is nothing but a self fulling phophecy playing itself out over and over again. We feel that all or most women are pety and often times evil creatures who only think of themselves. And so we head into the world and continue to prove ourselves right by being drawn to these type of women. Then when she disspapoints and flakes out on us we can fit into this view point and the bitterness continues to build. What's hard to understand during these times is that this is just what keeps us closed off and unable to meet an amazing women we dream of. Just like women sense neediness and desperation so too they can sense biterness in a man that may interest them and this is the biggest turn off of them all.

But the nihilist says, what other path is there but this one? What fool can prescribe to any other doctrine and still live in this world of ours? And so he skips from girl to girl never letting himself get hurt but never really allowing himself to feel.

Yet what about those who still want to believe? Those that still want to have hope to hold onto at the end of the day. Those that feel that somewhere out there is a life that we may one day seize. For us I believe the myth of Sisyphus may be a better metaphor then that of the Pheonix rising. He is the man that continues to roll the boulder to tht top of the mountain hoping one time that it will stay, and not roll back to the bottom. It is completely hopeless yet each time he begins again, setting off in the face of certain failure and absolute absurdity. Yet, in the process of rolling that stone he regains his humanity and becomes the ultimate hero of modern man. As Camus states at the end of his philosophical tale: "The struggle itself...is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

And so we must imagine ourselves happy, lose our biterness, and become open to one day meeting the Pheonix at the top of the mountain we continue to climb...

N.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Squirrels,



Forgive my inefficiency at fully articulating it previously. Some differences between how naïve guys see a Phoenix Chick and how knowledgeable guys see a Phoenix Chick are listed below:

Naïve guys think of a Phoenix Chick as “the” woman of their dreams, while men who are knowledgeable tend to think of a Phoenix Chick as “a” woman that has the distinctions necessary that’ll allow the two of them the opportunity to BUILD a dream “together”.

Naïve guys think of a Phoenix Chick as their EVERYTHING, while knowledgeable guys think of a Phoenix Chick as really SOMETHING to consider.

Overall, the difference between these two men are that one man is potentially “setting himself up” for future failure the other one is “setting himself apart” FROM future failure by adding rational thought to the process of getting with a woman who may fit surprisingly close to his ideal (whatever that ideal is).

Yes, the Phoenix is a mythical bird and the analogy was used for a reason. Though the Phoenix is mythical, the “chick” is not. There are some women who rise HIGH ENOUGH from the ashes of the low-level behavior and though-processes embraced by so many other chicks. Again, like a vice cop whose been working vice one year too many--------there is a danger of us thinking that the majority of what we may have personally seen or experienced is ALL there is.

What I’m suggesting here is that there comes a time when we should all try to work a different “beat”. There is some small truth to the cliché that “to a cop, everybody’s a potential crook”. In light of this analogy, we must ask ourselves is this REALLY how we want to approach our lives?

The truth is that there are guys out here with women who are good for them and vice versa. They just RARELY to never post on sites like this. Why? Well, I’d suspect that it’s mostly because they’re TOO BUSY living and enjoying their lives, dates, girlfriends, and wives…

I also suspect that the same is true for at least HALF of the people who used to post on sites like ours but NOW no longer do. I suspect that at least half of that 50% have taken what this site had to offer, incorporated it into their lives as they saw fit, and gone on to LIVE their lives. The other half of that 50%, of course, are probably guys who left TOO SOON and are out there repeating the same mistakes or are practicing on some brand NEW ones. But we all know they’ll be back…:yes:


But the sound-bite version of what I want to communicate to all my brothers here can actually be summed up in a simple formula--------so let’s do the math:

Man + Too High Expectations of Women = A greater potential to experience future heartbreak, disillusionment, or disappointment

Man + Too Low Expectations of Women = A greater potential to experience future anger, resentment, or an inability to form meaningful attachments to them

Man + Balanced Expectations of Women = A greater potential to experience WHATEVER he wants to -----------because he’s NOT fooled by Lifetime movies (Best Case Scenario Propaganda) and he’s NOT terrified by horror movies either (Worst Case Scenario Propaganda).


Men who live their lives by that last equation can WALK UP and enjoy positive experiences with women and also WALK AWAY from negative experiences he has with women. And he can do this and remain largely EMOTIONALLY intact. Why? Because he has a clarity of vision in regards to women that makes him mindful that he is NEVER powerless because he’s always in the position to CHOOSE.

Once a man who still has HOPE is armed with the knowledge that he can always make a CHOICE, he can never “stay” a victim or live in a victimized mindset forever.

We must all PICK our formulas wisely to work the equation to solve the problems that we encounter in our lives.



Oh, and one more thing:

I use “war metaphors” a lot for the fun of it and to amuse myself. BUT also, just to keep it “100% REAL” with you, there’s another reason why I do this. You see, in my life, I’ve found that nearly everything that’s worthwhile I have ever achieved has been met with RESISTANCE.

Everything that was not given to me by a friend, a loved one, or my Creator--------I have had to take by force (figuratively speaking). I have found that most of the things that I’ve ever achieved in my life have always come with a certain amount of fear, apprehension, procrastination, negativity, distractions, doubt, intimidations, or MANY OTHER things---------standing in my way.

And because of this, I realized just how true that old scriptural passage was that states that------WAIT A MINUTE. I’ll paraphrase it for you here below in V.U. style:

“For we are NOT fighting against flesh and blood, but against principles, concepts, corrupted ways of thinking, and worldwide misinformation about life and the way that we live it.”


In short, I use war metaphors so much because they remind me that there’s a level of blessings, good fortunes, and successes that simply CAN’T be achieved WITHOUT a fight.

In the face of OPPOSITION (no matter what form it may take)--------there IS no "VICTORY" without a BATTLE that precedes it. Which is unfortunately why sometimes WAR is necessary.


Soldier on.

 

[squirrels]

When you put it that way, it makes a little more sense. Maybe I just wasn't patient with the literary flourish.

I agree with you on the concept of taking the experience you enjoy from women while being able to leave the experience you don't want.

The conundrum I have is that, more often than not, much like panning flecks of gold out of the mud, it seems like most of the women I meet are more mud than gold.

That wouldn't be so bad...IF women weren't so proud and didn't demand that men take them "all or nothing". Thus I end up bouncing from woman to woman looking for one who's more "good time" than "bad time"...and I have yet to find one. Of course, it's easy to pretend for a few minutes or few hours at a time that a woman IS that ideal...but I can only fool myself for that long.

If you want to compare it to a "war", it's the difference between being at war with a civilized nation and being at war with a band of fundamentalist terrorists. A full country, you can find common ground with and help each other out. The terrorist sect demands your complete annihiliation...nothing else will do. There is no negotiation...convert or be destroyed.

That seems to be the only thing that women accept as a sign of "commitment"...full conversion or destruction.

I'd be more accepting of their ways if I could find one whose perspective on life energized me. As you may know from some of my other posts, it takes a hell of a lot of will power to pull myself up to meet a challenge...I do it more than I expect myself to be able to, and that surprises me, but it would be nice to find someone else whose sense of wonder and lust for life is strong, so we can use each other's enthusiasm to inspire our own.

It's rare. And what I've found is that most people lack much energy of their own, except in small, rare bursts. And I just don't have enough of it to support two.

 

[Jitterbug]

My uncle was a soldier & doctor turned hunter, after being stationed near tropical forests for a while. He and his mates loved hunting birds and eating them. He's eaten birds of all types, including beautiful, exotic ones. I asked him what they tasted like. He said, the best of them, the most magical looking, still taste like fvcking chicken at most. Our ancestors were wise to domesticate chicken, he reckoned.

Your metaphor just reminded me of that story.

I met my Phoenix Chick last year & we went on various dates for about a month. She had everything I've ever wanted in a woman, even long before I found this site. Usually I go on dates pretending to be excited & enjoying myself just to get laid, but with her, the excitement was genuine.

Long story short, I didn't get her, she's pining for some other guy who also shares her religious belief (I don't). Through the process, I figured out that she's just "fvcking chicken", as my uncle would say, but at the same time, she was the catalyst for me to step up my game and improve everything about myself. Prior to that, I was getting complacent. For that, I'd have to thank her.

Pook wrote something about behind every successful man, there is a woman that he failed to get when he was younger and not yet successful. Maybe that's the Phoenix Chick he's talking about. She is the projection of his desires, the mirror that reflects his weaknesses and potentials right back at him, the metaphorical kick in the arse for him to get his sh1t together to become great. She herself is just regular ol' chicken.

Is that your Phoenix Chick, VU?

Right now, I'm only expecting same old chicken from women, and I'm not sure whether that mindset is comforting, pragmatic, self-deluding or holding me back from meeting good women. What do you reckon, VU?

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Jitterbug,



Interesting take on the subject. My musings on the subject hadn't yet extended in the direction that you just took it--------this idea that certain women can be fuel for a BENEFICIAL fire within us that can burn LONG AFTER they leave our lives.

In a way, your observation speaks to the points that Squirrels just brought up in the post right above yours.

Squirrels said:

"As you may know from some of my other posts, it takes a hell of a lot of will power to pull myself up to meet a challenge...I do it more than I expect myself to be able to, and that surprises me, but it would be nice to find someone else whose sense of wonder and lust for life is strong, so we can use each other's enthusiasm to inspire our own.

It's rare. And what I've found is that most people lack much energy of their own, except in small, rare bursts. And I just don't have enough of it to support two."


If MOST of us stop for a moment and put down some of the macho posturing and dispense with the alpha-this, alpha-that chants for half a minute---------what Squirrels just said is how MANY of us feel from time to time. Why? Because life is real, this shyt can get hard, we get hurt, and when we sustain these "emotional injuries" it would be GREAT to have some inspiration to get back on our feet. Encountering a woman who would act more as an ally to our cause than an enemy would be a great find.

But the hard reality is that, as men, we can't usually count on being routinely afforded this luxury. No one really gives much of a damn when a man is DOWN------except maybe another man who has been there before------and can drop his shield long enough to try to encourage another brother through that rough period.

But I digress...

Yeah Jitterbug. I agree that your take on the Phoenix Chick also has good application. And it's true that a lof of birds taste like chicken, but there's a difference between raw, uncooked chicken and well-prepared, well-seasoned, and fully-done chicken. The Phoenix Chick would be the fowl that's NOTICEABLY less "foul" than the other "fowls".

The Phoenix Chick is the kind of chick that a sane man would actually prefer. The Phoenix Chick represents one of the better cuts of meat you can get (to take the analogy even further). Ideally she adds more spice to your life---------NOT more blandness and sameness.


Let's face it. Life, when it isn't hard--------when it isn't happy--------sometimes can just be plain DULL as hell. Like Nikoli's point about the Myth of Sisyphus, I feel that that myth provides us with a perfect analogy of what men who have nothing but LOW EXPECTATIONS of women go through on a regular basis with nearly all the women that they meet.

There's very little joy in their experience. The shyt just becomes just another something that they "do".

It's WORK.

It's HARD LABOR.

It's a FRUITLESS endeavor that he feels compelled to perform over and over again because it's either all he knows, or it's all his particular belief system will allow him to RISK. And not to meniton that the act of pushing a boulder UP HILL is an act that goes against the grain of the natural order of things. Boulders roll DOWN mountains not "up" them.

So in a sense, is it really "news" to hear that some dude pushing big rocks winds up gettin' his ass killed by living that lifestyle??? ("Pushin' them ROCKS"....get it?)

And so it is with us with and the women we meet. Actually, that's an analogy that we could use as a good sign that we've hooked up with the wrong woman, or we've gotten on the WRONG track with the RIGHT one. For sure, there's always effort involved in attracting, engaging, and executing good relationships with women---------but there's a difference between a labor of LOVE and labor we LOATHE.

In my estimation, the definition of a Phoenix Chick can very well be expanded to include a woman that shakes us out of our complacency, inspires us to get our shyt MORE together, or acts as a catalyst that causes "us" to take steps that ultimately result in our reaching a higher ground that we had YET to attain PRIOR to her crossing our path.

 

[Colossus]

As always a very timely post, VU.

I think a lot of guys who frequent the forums fall into the trap of seeing all women as "just another chicken". And it's easy to think that way, after a string of failures, duds, or just wasted dates that went nowhere except maybe meaningless sex. But that way of thinking is just as fallacious as thinking all men are the same. You might as well just say all PEOPLE are the same.

Often times we fall into patterns that reinforce our beliefs---whatever they may be. Women are this way, women are that way. Women reject me, women fvck me. After enough anecdotal reinforcement, those beliefs become ingrained in our minds and we live accordingly. I think the analogy of the "Phoenix Chick" is really just a girl who challenges your stagnant views or homogenous experiences. She is still a human being--with faults and her own story and maybe even a red flag or two--but for whatever reason she gives you some HOPE that maybe life isnt as dull and hexed as we thought it was.

I had a thread not too long ago about going through a wilderness, which is just an analogy I like to use for grey and hopeless times. I dont think the "Phoenix Chick" is the one who will pull us OUT of the wilderness; a man can only do that himself or with the help of another who has been there. What this girl more often is, is the one who you find when you break the trees, when you ENDURED the season and you see the dawn coming, and realize you made it.

 

[PokerStar]

this sh!t is deeper than a full 2 hours of fisting porn.

 

[Jitterbug]

We can take this chicken metaphor all the way. FYI I eat a lot of eggs and chicken, due to my involvement in powerlifting.

My mum (a chef by profession) often says, the chicken these days doesn't taste as good anymore (regardless of how you prepare & cook it) due to all the crap they feed the chooks and the condition they live in. She adds that picking the right meat to start with is crucial in making a good dish. In the past, it was very easy to pick good free range chicken, and often as you shopped in the local market over time, you'd even get to know the farmers and direct first-hand personal accounts of how the chooks were raised & fed.

And while we're at it with metaphors, let me quote what squirrels said again:

As you may know from some of my other posts, it takes a hell of a lot of will power to pull myself up to meet a challenge...I do it more than I expect myself to be able to, and that surprises me, but it would be nice to find someone else whose sense of wonder and lust for life is strong, so we can use each other's enthusiasm to inspire our own.

It's rare. And what I've found is that most people lack much energy of their own, except in small, rare bursts. And I just don't have enough of it to support two.

One of my passions is partner dancing. It is very hard to dance by yourself. Hard to find that energy, hard to look good, hard to sustain it for a long song. However, if you dance with a woman, the combined energy is easily greater than the raw total. You both look & feel much better dancing together. A guy or a girl dancing solo on the street usually just looks weird, and one would have to be an amazing elite dancer to pull that off. But a couple only need to be above average good dancers to entertain a crowd. I've done this on many occasions btw.

Let's face it. Life, when it isn't hard--------when it isn't happy--------sometimes can just be plain DULL as hell. Like Nikoli's point about the Myth of Sisyphus, I feel that that myth provides us with a perfect analogy of what men who have nothing but LOW EXPECTATIONS of women go through on a regular basis with nearly all the women that they meet.

Down here we call it pushing shyt uphill.

I get what you mean. I'd say this, as Pook once posted here, I'd rather give up a whole lot (but not too many, quantity counts too!) of boring aka "supermarket chicken" chicks to meet one who excites me like that girl from last year did.

But VU, those girls by definition are rare. What are we to do while hunting or waiting for one of them to appear in our life, other than continuing to, I don't know, push that big arse rock up the hill?

I don't think I have much of a problem understanding the concepts here, but what follows is a "Now what?" and I'm not really sure what to do with it. At the moment, I'm just getting important shyt done and forget about the Phoenix Chick - whether she's mythical or real.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Jitterbug said:


"But VU, those girls by definition are rare. What are we to do while hunting or waiting for one of them to appear in our life, other than continuing to, I don't know, push that big arse rock up the hill?

I don't think I have much of a problem understanding the concepts here, but what follows is a "Now what?" and I'm not really sure what to do with it. At the moment, I'm just getting important shyt done and forget about the Phoenix Chick - whether she's mythical or real."


Yo, Brother from Down Under,


Looks like you just answered your own question--------for the most part. We've all heard it before:


"Time spent in preparation is NEVER wasted."

We, as men, don't lose much in-between Phoenix Chicks or even Chicken Nugget Chicks as long as we're ALSO focusing on "getting important shyt done"--------like you just said.

The only other thing I'd add is that every man then has to make a choice of what ELSE to do with his free time in-between time.

Some guys are comfortable or at ease UNTIL a Phoenix Chick arives (which is RARE, but doable).

And some other guys are more comfortable and at ease "sampling" Chicken Nugget Chicks along the way until a Phoenix Chick arrives (which is MORE COMMON).

I don't see anything really wrong with either method of operation------as long as what we do what matches up with whatever our core beliefs are--------that we are still being TRUE to ourselves either way.

But each path does have it's own potential drawbacks:

The guy who waits, runs the risk of OVER-INFLATING a regular chick into MORE than she actually is out of possible loneliness, desperation, or just being plain TIRED of waiting. These guys become amateur short-order cooks who THINK that they can turn a Chicken Nugget Chick into a Phoenix Chick.

They are mistaken, of course.

And on the other hand, the guy whose out here "sampling" Chicken Nugget Chick-appetizers a little TOO MUCH runs the risk of think that EVERY chick is just another "nugget". These guys can sometimes OVERLOOK a Phoenix Chick because they've gotten so used to "nuggets' that they've convinced themselves that that's as good as it can get. In the lives of some of these guys--------CYNICISM reigns supreme.

So as you see, we're ALL THE WAY back to "balance" again, aren't we? Seems like we can't really get away from it "if" we want to increase our chances of getting what's ultimately best for ourselves.

Also, all this talk about chicken has made me hungry------so I think I'm gonna go on a Chicken Run.

I'll holla back!



PEACE...

 

[Razor Sharp]

Haha, VU of course you can't resist the call of chicken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ4B7G8Rw3Q