Obamacare Lives!

[backseatjuan]

ummmmmmmm, SOCIALISM, ummmmmmmmmmmm tasty


There is National Socialism, also known as Nazi or fascism

There is International Socialism, also known as communism

there are many more types of socialism, but these are the main two.



ALL SOCIALISM requires either reeducation or murder of a certain class of people. Geeeeze, what was those talks about FEMA Camps? Ohhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Sh`t!!!!!!!!!



Bombshell - FEMA Camps Confirmed
off COURSE for a true socialist it's advantageous to label something a conspiracy theory in order to conceive the truth.



What type of socialist are you? Do you think that the whole world must be equal or that your nation must be number?

 

[Alle_Gory]

The point is not providing health care to everybody, the point is forcing people to pay their money for something they do no require

You've never been sick and had to go to the hospital? You must be a wonder of the modern world then.

Despite I dislike turbo competitive societies which decrease the quality of living of people, I realize the more you turn close to socialism and the more your society is messed up generally, the first one forces you to take part in a rat race where a hierarchy is established, the second one forces you to live in a economical and mental slavery where only a few stay at the top with less less levels in between.

What??

No doubt about it, if you wanna enslave a population, socialism is the best way, no surprise all dictatorships were/are based on it.

Why don't you take a stroll through Canada or Norway. Yeah, we're real enslaved up here while you're struggling to keep the house you live in and put "food" on the table or whatever you guys like to call that stuff down there in the US.

Let's not get into your whole f*cked up "legal" system where the rich get "justice".

Yeah, we have it real bad. We're the slaves. Riiiiight.

 

[user43770]

You've never been sick and had to go to the hospital? You must be a wonder of the modern world then.



What??



Why don't you take a stroll through Canada or Norway. Yeah, we're real enslaved up here while you're struggling to keep the house you live in and put "food" on the table or whatever you guys like to call that stuff down there in the US.

Let's not get into your whole f*cked up "legal" system where the rich get "justice".

Yeah, we have it real bad. We're the slaves. Riiiiight.

I've never needed to go to a hospital. Ever. I don't like the idea of having to pay for other people to abuse the system. Fvcking welfare queens having multiple children on the taxpayers' dime; using ambulances as taxis to the ER for a stubbed toe; drug seekers making up problems to get pain meds. The system is already ridiculous. This will not make it any better.

 

[Who Dares Win]

You've never been sick and had to go to the hospital? You must be a wonder of the modern world then.



What??



Why don't you take a stroll through Canada or Norway. Yeah, we're real enslaved up here while you're struggling to keep the house you live in and put "food" on the table or whatever you guys like to call that stuff down there in the US.

Let's not get into your whole f*cked up "legal" system where the rich get "justice".

Yeah, we have it real bad. We're the slaves. Riiiiight.

First of all you give for granted that Im american which Im not, so american problems are not mine.

And yes I've never been to the hospital thankfully and any time I had to have minor operations I had to pay myself cause the "marvelous" public health care we have in most of european countries is so expensive yet so unefficient that it require lot of times before granting you any help.

Its mostly a legalized way to suck up public money, the only ones who benefit about it are drug-addicts, gipsies (which dont pay any tax) and old people with nothing to do in their life except doing their montly recommended blood test every monday(just to waste my money).

Needless to say politicians and pharmaceuticals get benefits as well since they feed each other, pharma pay politicians which in return make sure the puppets they put as administrators buy from that particular company.

Here you have the wonder of socialism, those in charge getting benefits in the name of people while only the less productive fragments of the population are allowed to get what they left.

Needless to say that when something is "public" usually doesnt work since employers cannot be easily fired even in case of bad conduct or lack of professionality.

If ifs fine for you in canada good to know, it means someone despite the crysis still have money to waste.


But thats just the technical reason, the basic reason is that nobody should be allowed to force someone to pay for something which they dont require as I said before, that is the opposite of freedom.
Freedom of choice is the privilege of a citizen to decide if he consider an offer worth or not and invest according to his reasoning, coercition into cooperate its not freedom,its in fact good enogh
for any dictatorship history saw.

 

[backbreaker]

hat

I don't get the.. the bad part lol. the complaints aren't even realistic.

It's about money and who pays for it all. Right now, near me anyway, patients are split evenly into thirds: private insurance, gov't, and nothing. The people with nothing will still get care if they at least promise to pay and do not already have bad debt with that hospital or clinic. Even if they have bad debt with that particular clinic, under the current law they still get care if they have a condition that is considered life-threatening.

Although the Supremes validated Obamacare, they threw out the part that lets the Feds force the states to expand Medicaid coverage. States are going to be allowed to opt out of Obamacare on a state-by-state basis. Since they are mostly on the brink of insolvency right now, the temptation to opt out will be strong.

The only thing keeping docs afloat right now is private insurance, because the state hasn't sent a check in almost four years. The state of Illinois is racking up million dollar bills with doctors right now and then offering to settle them later for 5%. And the million dollar figure was already highly discounted in the first place, by about 2/3. Now Obamacare is going to force the doctors to treat twice as many people in exchange for a promise to someday sent a check.

Imagine if I owed you a few million bucks, was four years behind paying you, and kept sending you insultingly low settlement offers. Now imagine if the government passed a law that made you do twice as much business with me. That's why doctors hate Obamacare. The only thing they can do to survive is to stretch themselves, their staffs, and their resources even thinner. That drives down the quality of care that they can give, and that will drive any good doctor nuts. Yes it is about money, but money affects quality.

this is a very good break down. However, why should the tax payers havse to suffer because of an incompetent government? why should the tax payers have to suffer because the state of illinois cannot pay their bills? That's not the taxpayers fault.

it's 2 separate problems that you are trying to treat as one. a deal or something can be worked out to where the state is made to pay what they owe or at least the vast majority of what they owe

Affordable health care isn't a human right in a modern society? So those who can't afford it should be left to die I on the streets I presume.

Every other modern, civilized, first world society seems to think otherwise. Last time I checked the UK wasn't run by a socialist government.

we live in a fox news society. I would not fvcking be here today if not for "socialism", because my grandmohter had to have help raising her two daughters because my grandfather wanted nothing to do with his daughters and their step dad was in jail on a murder wrap.

and not everyone that recieves help from the goverment is a blood sucking scum. my mom went to college and got a masters degree, and was so poor growing up there was literrally a tree growing in the living room. so of you have no idea what poor really is, if i can be blunt for a minute, in particular if you are white and everyone you know is middle class


And honestly.. i don't give a **** either way about obama care. I have health insurance on me, my wife and my son as well as life insurance and I assure you it's better than anything the government can or will provide me, considering my mom sold it to me lol.

it just irks me when people who don't know **** try to talk about **** they know nothing about. i'm not saying there aren't leeches but contrary to popular belief there are really people that are struggling and it's not beucase they are lazy but most of you are too sheltered to realize that.


and this socialist talk, grow the fvck up. that's what first world countries do, because it's the morally responsible thing to do. I pay Social security for money i will never fvcking see, i pay for medicare/medicaid that i will never use. I pay taxes to finance a stadium i will never go to lol. that's just what the fvck it means to live in a first world country. first world countries understand that not all ambitious people are born in idea situtuations, not all good ideas come from middle class people and the only way to ensure that you are ahead as far as having the best and the brightest is to give EVERY one equal opportunity, even if it costs some it benefits the country as a whole. Where would Lebron James be right now if his mom did not get a check every month to help with the food and groceries while he was growing up as his dad was no where to be found and he was forced to go "make money" instead of playing ball? for every white trash bum there is a JK Rowling who was on welfare at a point in their lives. For every white trash ***** there is an Ayn Rand. for every ghetto black girl there is an Oprah Winfrey. These are people who had ambion, a dream and a drive and weren't evern trying to get an advantage.. they just wanted to live and have food and be able to get by while they hone their skills, to be able to go to the hosptial when you are sick to be ble to have something to eat when you get home from school, is that really to much to ask?

you take care of the people who cannot take care of themselves. doesn't mean I have to like doing it but that's what you do. Every person should have the right to live, the right to better themselves and their living situation regardless of race, religion, or financial background.

What's lost on all this is i don't even think half of you know why we are being forced to have health care. it's to bring health care costs DOWN. The reason it costs so much to go to the hospital is beucse when you pay your bill you are having to not only pay your bill you are having to compensate for the 2 guys that stiffed their medical bills. By making everyone have health care, the hospital does not get stiffed.

so if "socialism" is going to make my monthly health insurance cheaper, hell the fvck yes i am for it.

note i have only been to the hopsital 4 times my entire life. I got hit with a bat while catching in a little league game and got knocked out, i tore my acl in high school and had to have sugury, i had a really bad case of acid reflux a few years ago and they kept me overnight and i got mugged a year and a half go. only 1 of those was a real medical condition. i'm the picture of freaking health. What pisses me off more than anything is i am stuck in the same health bracket with the 30 year old who smokes and drinks every night and is 5'8 250.

But thats just the technical reason, the basic reason is that nobody should be allowed to force someone to pay for something which they dont require as I said before, that is the opposite of freedom.

you need to brush up on the constitutions

It stops being an issue of freedom when your actions directy reflect everyone else around you. in o[hter words, i can say what the hell i want to say, i have the right to free speach. If i say hey, who dares win shoudl be killed beucase i do not like him, even though I have the right to free speech, it stops when i am directly effecting the well being of someone else.

It's no different here. the 800 pound gorilla in the room when dealing with this is, you don't know when you need to go the hospital It's not like life insurance, generally you can skate by to your 50's before you are serious about life insurance, I mean you shouldn't but most can. You can't do that with health insurance. I dated Crystal and while we were dating, she's what, 24 years old, turns out she's a Type A diabetic, she found out the very hard way. no insurance, and of course now that she's a diabetic her insurance rates are through the roof and they don't cover her 2 week medial stay that all but killed her credit history. my litlte brother, trying to freaking be sweet lol trying to impress some girls and crashed his car into a tree. no insurance, he was too told to be covered on my dad's plan but not old enough to take insurance seriously. I don't drink (at least not often) i don't smoke i'm sub 10% body fat and i swim 45 mins a day, if there is anyone on this forum who does not need health insurance it's me, yet i had to use it when i got mugged and my hand got broke and i had some bruised ribs.

the thing about this is, most people who are uninsured are my age, and think well i'm not sick i don't need to insurance, yet they end up getting hurt or some **** happening to them and end up having to the hospital with no insurance. so your "choice" to not have health insurance ends up costing you thousands in medical bills which ruins your credit, stffs the hospital which makes my and everyone else on this forum's health insurance rate go up.

it's in the countries best interest for everyone to have insurance. Rather you think you need it or not.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

you take care of the people who cannot take care of themselves. doesn't mean I have to like doing it but that's what you do. Every person should have the right to live, the right to better themselves and their living situation regardless of race, religion, or financial background.

What's lost on all this is i don't even think half of you know why we are being forced to have health care. it's to bring health care costs DOWN.

That's a nice sentiment, one which I wholly agree with, but when governments get involved, it never works out. For two reasons.

Now there are some people that don't think they need insurance, and don't buy it. But once you force them to buy it, they are going to make sure they get their money's worth. You'll have many more people using a fixed number of resources. Basic laws of supply and demand says the price will go up.

This is something referred to in economics as the "Tragedy of the Commons." When any resource is perceived as free and available to everybody, it gets used up rather quickly. When you present the notion that EVERYBODY can get access to health care, then the resources tend to be overused. They become more expensive, and the quality decreases. It generally takes years for things to become noticeably bad, but they tend in this direction.

Another reason is that politicians get elected by promising things to people. Politicians who promise opportunity to people rarely get elected. Politicians who promise goods and/or services without effort always get elected.

Combine these two and you have a bad outcome. You have politicians tapping into everybody's desire to "help out the less fortunate" by "bringing costs down." What you end up with is a system that is easily abused by the users, and offers little rewards to the providers. That kind of situation never ends well, intentions notwithstanding.

The reason it costs so much to go to the hospital is beucse when you pay your bill you are having to not only pay your bill you are having to compensate for the 2 guys that stiffed their medical bills. By making everyone have health care, the hospital does not get stiffed.

I disagree. There are a few reasons why healthcare is so expensive, but people stiffing the hospitals isn't a major factor.

One is that the supply of hospitals and doctors is limited. Any time you limit the supply of a good, the price will be higher than it would under normal circumstances. The AMA is one of the few "cartels" in the world.

to wit: (from http://wallstreetpit.com/5769-the-medical-cartel-why-are-md-salaries-so-high

In 1963, there were only 135 law schools in the U.S. (data here), and now there are 200, which is almost a 50% increase over the last 45 years in the number of U.S. law schools. Unfortunately, we’ve witnessed exactly the opposite trend in the number of medical schools. There are 130 medical schools in the U.S. (data here), which is 22% fewer than the number of medical schools 100 years ago (166 medical schools, source), even though the U.S. population has increased by 300%. Consider also that the number of medical students in the U.S. has remained constant at 67,000 for at least the period between 1994 and 2005, according to this report, and perhaps much longer.

The number of medical schools have decreased by 22%, while the population has increased 300%. If you decrease the number of doctors while the population triples, of course prices are going to skyrocket.

it's in the countries best interest for everyone to have insurance. Rather you think you need it or not.

This is another source of confusion. The world "insurance" generally refers to something in economics called "insurable events." Which means something whose statistical probability can be determined using the law of large numbers, and the risks spread out accordingly.

Car insurance is one such example, and the comparison has been made between compulsive health insurance and compulsive car insurance.

The difference is that the vast majority of drivers will spend their entire driving careers without getting into an accident. The "insurance" is just that. Something to guard against an unlikely event.

Health insurance is a completely different ballgame. Everybody is going to get sick and die at one point in their lives.


There are plenty of things people think should be covered by "insurance" that aren't technically insurable events. Pregnancy, dental care, preventive medicine, and all the health problems associated with old age and death.

These are events that one can plan for, and should save for, just as you would save to buy a house, a car, or a college education. They are simply the costs of life. They aren't "insurable events' that everybody should shoulder.

The biggest problem, in all of these issues, in my opinion, is that in order to get elected, politicians have been promising us so many things for so long, we think we deserve them. We all feel entitled to things that we shouldn't feel entitled to. We feel we should be given things we really should work and save for.

Sure, cradle to the grave health care, food and shelter would be great, but somebody's got to pay for it. And as somebody once said, you eventually run out of other people's money.

 

[Bible_Belt]

My trailer was always nice and warm, because we had a wood stove. But I realize they don't let you have wood fires in the trailer park.

I think the sick have to be treated, even if they are too ignorant to have made the right choices. I don't think the oath that doctors take has a "unless they don't have insurance" clause. I happen to know a handful of doctors and they might be dorky and a little socially awkward, but they really do care about people. The docs I know do surgeries all of the time for which they know they're not going to get paid. If they made it illegal to treat uninsured patients, I can say that the doctors I know would break that law. They'd be sneaking patients into the back door of their house at night to see them, because that's the job - fixing people. Doctors took an oath to do that, and they're going to do it, even when the government doesn't pay. And the government has figured that out, which is why they stopped paying what they promised.

As for paying for it all, 20% of the 2.5 million people in prison in the US are non-violent drug offenders. That's 500,000 inmates at a cost of about $50,000 per year each, which is 25 Billion dollars. Most of the people in jail are no danger to anyone; they are just too dumb to get through probation and life in general. A retired prosecutor I know estimated that percentage at about 80%. If we let all of those people out of jail, we'd have $100 billion every year to pay for health care without raising taxes just by that alone. Legalizing and taxing drugs could pay for healthcare for all of the poor and do it without raising taxes on the rich, but we don't do it, because the interests that profit from our current system are too well-entrenched to let that happen.

 

[backbreaker]

My trailer was always nice and warm, because we had a wood stove. But I realize they don't let you have wood fires in the trailer park.

I think the sick have to be treated, even if they are too ignorant to have made the right choices. I don't think the oath that doctors take has a "unless they don't have insurance" clause. I happen to know a handful of doctors and they might be dorky and a little socially awkward, but they really do care about people. The docs I know do surgeries all of the time for which they know they're not going to get paid. If they made it illegal to treat uninsured patients, I can say that the doctors I know would break that law. They'd be sneaking patients into the back door of their house at night to see them, because that's the job - fixing people. Doctors took an oath to do that, and they're going to do it, even when the government doesn't pay. And the government has figured that out, which is why they stopped paying what they promised.

As for paying for it all, 20% of the 2.5 million people in prison in the US are non-violent drug offenders. That's 500,000 inmates at a cost of about $50,000 per year each, which is 25 Billion dollars. Most of the people in jail are no danger to anyone; they are just too dumb to get through probation and life in general. A retired prosecutor I know estimated that percentage at about 80%. If we let all of those people out of jail, we'd have $100 billion every year to pay for health care without raising taxes just by that alone. Legalizing and taxing drugs could pay for healthcare for all of the poor and do it without raising taxes on the rich, but we don't do it, because the interests that profit from our current system are too well-entrenched to let that happen.

to me it's not so much about the 35 year old who is just too stupid to get his **** straight it's about that 35 year old's son who had no choice who his parents were. It's not his freaking fault his parents are deadbeats and why should he be denied health care that I have beucase of it?

but you are correct. What's that term the indestural military complex that's pretty much what we have except with drugs.

see i have a theory. did you know that AA's long term success rate is 2%? by 2 percent I mean that people who go to AA and are able to stay clean for a period of 5 or more years, 1 out of 50 people.

My theory is people don't get clean beucase no one wants you to get clean. I mean, think about it. What actual benefit does society get from you being clean? most addicts aren't violent so that's not really an issue. they are just addicts. You go to rehab, you insurance pays for it, the rehab i went to cost a little over 10 grand for 30 days. most drug addicts have to go to on avg 3 long term impatient facilities in their life time. most drug addicts end up doing jail time and as BB stated, depending on where you live it's anywhere between 25-40k or so a year per immate. prison guards have to watch you, wardens have to manage the prison guards. Drug impatiant facilities have boards of directores and they have books and they want to turna profit just like everyone else does. the cleaner you are the harder it is for them ot turn a profit. the drug rehab i lived in had about 30 employees in all.

and the drug dealers that are giving you your ****, the feds have to spend thousands of hours following wire taping him and trying him, which takes people to do.

there is an entire freaking industry, they can't fvcking wait to you relapse.what fvcking good are you if you aren't using? yeah you parade a few good ones around and show it can be done, you even give a few jobs, but other than that what good are you clean lol? you are some smuck that works at a department store or a car lot or a bank or whatever, your real value to the goverment is as a drug addict.
when i first got clean i lived in this chem free house, there were about what, i'd say 50 of us total it was basically a nursing home that was remodeled to be a drug treatment facility. out of those 50 people....; honestly... there were 2 of the 50 that i would have anthing resembling a violent past. i was maybe 1 of 10 out of the entire building that had never been to jail. all just drunks who drink too much, pill heads who pop too much, crack heads who smoke crackt oo much and do stupid **** like smoke crack in a car with a cop next to them lol, but, most of them would not hurt a freaking fly. just not in em. they just are druggies.

I tsayed around the but the longer i stayed around the more jaded i got. they don't fvckign want you clean. they don';t give you any fvcking practical advice, did you know NAC vitamins helps curb the drive for cocaine/crack, it doesn't take it all the way away but it makes the drive less strong it does so by re balancing the chemical endorphins or some **** i'm not a scientist in your brain. even worse, i had to research the **** myself and figure it out beucase noe one there had a fvcking clue. they don't want you to have a clue. because you with a clue is not profitable.

danger

read what i stated above. we don't feel differently about grown people who made bad choices. but i can't look at a child or a teenager who was stuck with crummy parents and tell him breucase he has crummy parents he can't eat or he can't go to the doctor.

and **** people get their lives turned around.

i'm not a racist. **** my wife is white. fvck my mom and my son are mixed. and i probably could have chosen my words better.. I mean i have just seen a lot of **** with my own eyes. though I lived in the better part of the city, the school i went to was right smack dab in the middle of gang banging in little rock ville. i went to school with a LOT of poor kids. I grew up with a lot of poor teenagers. I have seen a lot of crackhead mom's and see kids who don't eat at all until they get to school and I am not saying that every kid should be in a private school and have a full wardrobe full of clothes and all types of new toys and **** but I mean, at the same time I'm not going to throw a child under the bus because of who his parents are either.

I do my part. as I stated before I am in the big brothers big sisters program and have been for a while. Little knucklehead is practically my son he is over here so much. I mean.. that's just who I am and that wont' change. I'm big hearted and i have a soft spot for people who have it rough. could people make better choices in life? sure but i am not going to tell you that you can't get medical attention beucase you happen to be a drug addict or too lazy to work. That's just not in me and if that makes me a socialist than fvck that is what i am and if it means I have to pay an extra 500 dollars at the end of the year fvck it at least i did it. veryone is titled to life, liberity and the persuit of happiness. to be entitled to life one has to be entiteld to proper care to continue living, rather you are poor, rich, black, white, whatever the fvck.

and what i find funny or at least ironic out of all this is, i am like, if there was a definition of what a non christian was in the bible, it would have a picture of me next to it. I do not believe in the bible, though I do consider myself a diest. Honesty I don't know how a person could call themselves a christian when the entire fvcking bible is about taking care of people who cannot take cdare of themselves, the book of Leviticus if i am not mistaken specifically tells you to put back putting back 10% of the harvest so the city's poor can eat, the bible doesn't ask how they got poor or wat they do for a living, god still commands that you take care of them. Does Deuteronomy not say to not be tight fisted with the poor? and here you have these bible thumping conservatives who are all about god yet have no fvcking clue what god wants.

I mean I hate to go off on a religious rant I assure you Im' not taking you to church but I just do not understand the facination with ****ting on the next guy as much as you can. Forgive people for where they are and help them because at some point in your life someone helped you is that really that hard of a concept to grasp? so the fvck what your taxes are a tad higher. I remember when I was in the 2nd grade I could barley read and write. My parents thought I was slow and I was put in resource classes. I barley and I mean badly made it to third grade, and in 3rd grade i had a teacher that literally changed the path of my life, she saw something in me, what i don't know but by the end of the year i was in talented and gifted classes and I never was in regular classes again a day in my life. she stayed with me after school and helped me when she did not have to. I remember I liked the boxcar children series book and she would take me to the public libary and help me check out books. she could have went home and cooked and sucked off her husband but she didn't she helped my black ass and I am forever indebted to that woman because of it. So much so that i still talk to her to this day and flew her and her husband ut to my wedding.

I say that to say I mean, at some point you got to look in the mirror. We live in an extremely selfish society and I am not perfect but I try, and from a political standpoint we should not mandate everyone help each other, but i don;'t understand the uproar of people who are so selifsh that they do not want their fellow citizens to have proper health care.

I mean, i'm not lord high executioner or some ****, but at least I don't pretend to be about god when it is convenient for me to do so. That is what honestly pisses me off about most christans than anything, most of them aren't. or are in name only. At least I am honest about mine. For those of you who do that that's beucase you and him.

 

[iqqi]

Awesome posts from Backbreaker on this thread.

I think it is a sign of the times that there are people who think it is ok for someone to go without necessary health care for whatever reason. These people are seriously clueless about just who these unfortunate cases are. The owner of the mom and pop restaurant you love so much? Heaven forbid he have a stroke because there is a great chance he is just getting by and keeping his restaurant afloat... good chance he doesn't have health insurance.

The old man who is your neighbor and does all of the yard work in your apartment building for a discount on his rent because he can't find very good work at his old age, who shovels your snow for you and helped change your tire that one time you woke up late for your flight at the airport, when he slips and falls and cracks his head open, he dies three nights later because he wanted to wait it out like he usually does with his injuries because he didn't have health insurance to cover the costs of a hospital visit.

Or the lady who married you and your spouse and also took the photos of your wedding because she was both a wedding photographer and ordained, who became a good friend because of her generous and loving personality, you'll have to attend her funeral when she dies prematurely at the age of 50 from a heart attack she knew she couldn't afford so she chose to die instead of possibly hurting her children and grandchildren even more with further debt from hospital bills. That's my aunt who died a few weeks ago, she was also basically Backbreakers teacher he loves so much because she raised me for a year when I was a child and I was also in the "special" class because I was so far behind my peers in education, but with her daily tutoring I went to the top of the class literally within a month's time. She did this thing for many children. At her funeral, hundreds showed up. She was even given a soldier's rendering of honors for her work with the Army.

Their family was middle class, and I always remember thinking they were the ones who had their sh!t together. Me and my mom were the super poor ones of the family. I guess one year was bad for them, and they had to make some sacrifices (such as health insurance) just to pay for food on the table. That's the year she had her first heart attack, and then it was a snowball effect of nightmarish proportions, including the loss of their house. One of their youngest joined the armed forces SOLELY for the money to help save the family house, to no avail in the end.

These are people who are not scum, low lives, or even irresponsible. Many of them are barely getting by, and have to take a gamble to either keep their business just barely floating, and family fed, lights on, mortgage paid, ...or buying expensive insurance. Maybe you don't know any of these people, and that's why you don't care if they die for reasons such as being completely unable to afford insurance. I guess if you take out all of the emotions of the matter, then you wouldn't have to care because it isn't you specifically. You are a very responsible person who has grabbed life by the horns, and you can afford and therefor have health insurance. Who cares about anyone else. They aren't entitled to health or care.

 

[Quiksilver]

Can't they willingly contribute to a healthcare charity?

It isn't about whether or not some child needs health treatment or not. Its about whether that justifies stealing from someone else to pay for it.

Of course if some kid needs treatment, no one wants to see them left out in the cold. I'm sure there are hundreds of millions of Americans who would financially support that treatment willingly.

Also:

The idea of an individual having a 'Right' to healthcare... That is another way of saying you support the enslavement of medical workers.

IMO, healthcare is a privilege. If a medical doctor doesn't want to treat me for whatever reason, I have no Right to their time and effort. If I did, then they are my slave.

--

And, since I majored in business:

I don't know the exact figures of how much someone will pay. I heard the fine for not purchasing health insurance is around $700 per year. And it cost $2,000 per year or something. Is this accurate?

Well--however much it is--realize that that is money that will not be spent in the rest of the economy.

There are about 8 health insurance corporations in America lined up to rake in billions as a result of this legislation. The rest of the business in America and all small business, will have that much smaller pie to divide amongst each other.

Might have to put off that kitchen renovation for a few years ... Oops, the kitchen renovators go out of business. Might have to cancel that trip to Disneyland this year... Oops, Disneyland workers are fired. Might have to hold on to the car for an extra few years instead of purchasing a new one. Oops, auto company lays off 500 workers.

Tough luck.

.....

--

Most of the libertarian-minded folks are just concerned with the involuntary, inescapable nature of it.

 

[Strelok]

Nice really nice, so if general population needs health care I have to contribute myself wheter Im much more healthy than the average citizen and would do better by myself.

You say health care is a basic needs, so is sex yet I dont see so many good samaritans around accepting a legal sex service for those who cannot provide themselves, hell you dont even see so much people supporting a paying service.

Appartently despite sex being a basic needs, people usually think that if you suck at getting it,its your fault and you deserve to stay without.
When it comes of health care the opposite, so a months long dry spell apparently is less hurting than a curved nail.

Coerence, it turns on and off according to moral and political agendas...

 

[betheman]

Nice really nice, so if general population needs health care I have to contribute myself wheter Im much more healthy than the average citizen and would do better by myself.

You say health care is a basic needs, so is sex yet I dont see so many good samaritans around accepting a legal sex service for those who cannot provide themselves, hell you dont even see so much people supporting a paying service.

Appartently despite sex being a basic needs, people usually think that if you suck at getting it,its your fault and you deserve to stay without.
When it comes of health care the opposite, so a months long dry spell apparently is less hurting than a curved nail.

Coerence, it turns on and off according to moral and political agendas...

since when did sex become a basic need? is it a basic need to a 10 year old? or to a 94 year old? I think not! sex is a want, not a need.

 

[Who Dares Win]

backbreaker is on point as usual. It isn't your fault, who you're parents are. Everyone should have a fair chance to make something of themselves. If it wasn't for the free bus pass and education maintenance allowance I got through school I'd probably be working in some dead end job right now. And now my first job out of uni I'll be on a marginal tax rate of 40% and I understand and appreciate why this is the case.




Ah so introducing a slightly more egalitarian health care system has brought the US to the brink of Socialism, instead of the gungho free-for-all you had before. So now the US joins such marixst strongholds as Canada, Japan, and almost all of Western Europe. Get a grip on reality guys.



Dictatorships are authoritarian. Socialism is not a necessary condition for authoritarianism.

Nazi Germany, Franco’s Spain, Fascist Italy, Britain’s feudal system, etc. All dictatorships. Closer to traditional capitalism, than socialism.

Either read a history/politics book or stop throwing around nonsense terms.




All the hyperbole in this thread is giving me nausea. The idea that universal healthcare is imposed or some infringement on human liberty is laughable.


Most of these arguments usually start with a fundamental misunderstanding of how the European universal health care systems work. When you have universal health care, the system is incentivised towards lower cost--and better health, which also comes from better living standards. These systems proactively work for preventative care rather than simply reacting to health issues when they arise. People (that's other human beings btw) also live in a system where they are encouraged to work and stay healthy and so they actually contribute more to supporting the system. When they can afford health care when they first need it, they seek that care much more often before their health has degenerated into a nasty, painful and costly mess (yes, costing much more). They do this not to ‘preserve’ the system, they do so to avoid feeling even worse from their health issue—simple human self-interest. This is what I call a win-win situation—healthier, happier individuals who contribute to supporting lower health care costs, mostly by simply following their own self-interest.


This leads to the personal liberty issue involved—promoting healthier, happier individuals in society who contribute more to supporting that society—is one of the best ways to promote individual liberty. In all fairness, this is where the 'liberals' and 'socialists' fail in their arguments, focusing instead on social welfare. I'd say both individual liberty and social welfare are important components in favour of the universal healthcare coverage that many Europeans (as well as South Koreans, Singaporeans, and others) enjoy today.

Do you read yourself? are you for real? you tell me to read history books then you come here to say that italian fascism is close to capitalism? I hope you are kidding.
The nationalization of most of industries is capitalism for you? do you know what you are talking about? they even nationalized movie industries for fvck sake.
Water,electricity were all controlled from the state, you call it capitalism? whatever was big enough to produce nice wealth was nationalized.

And regarding the european health care I think I know better than you since Im european and living in Europe.

The only non sense here is yours, you in fact touched a new high of bvllsh1t when you said:

When you have universal health care, the system is incentivised towards lower cost

This is the most stupid thing in this thread, public hospitals work less efficiently than private ones and are expensive as hell due to bad organization and bad conducts of operators who are simply confident in the fact that no matter what they cannot be fired, they in fact are most likely to be hired due to political affiliation and friendship with the "right people".

The more money they consume,the more the gov is gonna give them despite a balance in efficiency.

You hit the jackpot of bvllsh1t here man.

 

[Who Dares Win]

Closer and close are two different words with two different meanings. One refers to absolutes. The other to relatives. Good to know we have elementary English out the way.



Let me rephrase that. Some of the examples mentioned are closer to neoconservative capitalism than socialism: subsidies to favored industries, low government spending in most areas other than military, promotion of open markets while simultaneously supporting incumbent businesses, etc.




I'm from the UK.


The main inefficiencies from public healthcare, at least in the UK, arise from input costs. Like when a hospital has several suppliers for machines or surgical tools when it could switch to one and benefit from lower costs via economies of scale; quite common in the UK but is being dealt with by the current government.

When somebody is correcting your grammar or looking at a single letter on a post you realize he is running out of points.

I suppose the great spending in public buildings, wetland reclamation, investments in sport and national healths all done from the state were not mentioned in your book as well.
You decided italian facism was closer to capitalism that socialism and thats all, no need to argue about it in pure socialist dogma style.

Then again you point out that :

When you have universal health care, the system is incentivised towards lower cost

Only to come out that its not like that and explaining why in the uk, concluding with the current gov "will" solve it.

Man seriously stop talking about things you dont know simply to justify a moral standpoint.

As all of those who shares my view in this thread said, its not that we want poor people to die, we simply realize that a universal health care is the wrong answer to the problem.
Its a technical problem, and technical problems have to be solved with logic not with moral or emotions.

Simply universal health care doesnt provide a good service, force people to pay their own money for something they do want to be part of and finally encourage even more politicians and social parasites to keep doing what they are doing, more and more.

 

[Who Dares Win]

When you misunderstand the meaning of a sentence based on that grammatical point it becomes a problem. Don't get angry because you deliberately chose to interpret what I said to suit your argument. Get over it.





This is just...laughable. Your entire opinion is based on a simplistic morality of
individual liberty. Taken to its logical conclusion poor people will die. You've proven you have very little understanding of the implications of your own viewpoints. Laissez-Faire economics does not lead to some libertarian utopia. It leads to Oliver Twist, without the happy ending.

And when your logic leads you to deduce that universal healthcare is akin to organised mafia crime, with gems like this



It's clear you either don't understand what universal healthcare is or simply have some odd contempt for the poor (or in your mind the 'weak' and 'entitled').

I need continue no further with this conversation.

1)you said some uber bvllsh1t to brag a knowledge you dont posses (on very simple concepts btw).

2)you changed the card on the table just to show that you know best everytime you've been proven wrong or you contraddicted yourself, when you've been unable to do so you simply said you've been "misunderstood".

3)Re-start again and again point 1-2 trying to win your opponent by tireness

All I had to say about the thread I said it, pointless to repeat again and most of all I have no will to take part in the mental/moral masturbation process in which you are inviting me, when someone introduce moral attack it means points are simply over, you can agree or disagree as you please on the rest.

 

[HariPoter13]

As for paying for it all, 20% of the 2.5 million people in prison in the US are non-violent drug offenders. That's 500,000 inmates at a cost of about $50,000 per year each, which is 25 Billion dollars. Most of the people in jail are no danger to anyone; they are just too dumb to get through probation and life in general. A retired prosecutor I know estimated that percentage at about 80%. If we let all of those people out of jail, we'd have $100 billion every year to pay for health care without raising taxes just by that alone. Legalizing and taxing drugs could pay for healthcare for all of the poor and do it without raising taxes on the rich, but we don't do it, because the interests that profit from our current system are too well-entrenched to let that happen.

No. We don't do it because we're stupid, not because of some conspiracy theories. You're forgetting that your average senator is a dumb motherfucker. Obligatory quote:

Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.

Louis Dembitz Brandeis

 

[5string]

They already do intrude. Massively. At least with health care you're forcing the ****ers to give you something back for all those taxes you pay them.



America is far from the glory that was Rome.

All true brother. Kudos.

I for one am sick and fvckin tired of a government that ignores our constitution, bill of rights and continually fvcks with my peronal freedoms and my pocket book. Fvckers.