No, we can't just be friends!

Angstrom

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You made a mistake. Became friends with a girl you knew you were attracted to. You've probably already surprised the hell out of her by telling her that you're interested in her. She thought about it for a while, and ultimately turned you down, giving you an excuse like, "We work so well as friends, I wouldn't want to screw anything up." or some other BS excuse which all boils down to "I'm just not attracted to you."
I hear you saying, "Yeah, yeah, I skimmed through the boards, I didn't really think any of this applied to me because 'I Really Like'(tm) this one, I’m not just trying to get laid." WRONG. The basic rules of DJ'ing are essential rules to having a healthy relationship, not just techniques for getting yourself laid.
Do Not Become Friends With A Woman You Are Not Having Sex With.
This does not mean that you can't be friendly to women.
When you meet a woman, she rates you just like you rate her... You do rate women, even if you don't do it consciously, and they do the same. You're lying to yourself if you think that you don't get rated the instant any woman meets you. Here's what this means to you. If she's single and she says she just wants to be friends, or if you two just "end up" being friends she has just told you, "Boy, you came close to being the right guy for me, but you sure are ugly." Maybe it's not physically ugly. Her reasons aren't important. What is important is that you realize that this relationship is OVER. Don't BS yourself. You know that if you really like her, you're never going to stop thinking she's whatever it is that makes you want her. If you do ever stop feeling like that, she's obviously not what you thought she was, and you shouldn't be with her.
You've heard the saying "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." I used to be the kind of guy who thought, "I want to meet a girl who I can talk about anything with, who I can be best friends with, and have fun with." I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong. Having the woman you're involved with be everything rolled into one, being a friend, lover, confidant and more, is a Bad Idea.
Any financial advisor will tell you that the key to staying afloat through rough market periods is to be diversified. Tech stocks take a hit? You're not worried because you've got stocks in other fields. Imagine though, that you've put all your hard-earned money into Company X, and they go under. You're broke now, because you weren't diversified. You'd call someone crazy to do that with his or her money, but why do you think there's nothing wrong with doing the exact same thing with a woman?
Friends and Lovers should be kept, more or less, separate. Your friends are the guys you go out and have a beer with, or watch the game with. You want to hang out with your friends, not bend them over a table and have your way with them.
Understand here, that I'm not saying that a lover should be chosen on looks alone. Compatibility is one of the keys to a successful long-term relationship. You've heard that opposites attract? Don't believe the hype. It's true that opposites attract, the problem is that they attract fights, and arguments. Of course, if that's what you're looking for, knock yourself out.
Which sounds healthier to you? "I absolutely cannot live without you, I want to breathe the air you've breathed and kiss the ground you've walked on" or, "Yeah, I could live without you, but why in the world would I want to do that?"
The first type of thinking can lead to an intense relationship. The problem with intense relationships is that they are bound to burn out quickly. It's just human nature. We want what's new, we grow tired of routine.
If you're so into someone that you spend all your free time with them, how long do you honestly expect that to last? Imagine a Pizza. Pizza is really good. How many meals in a row, do you think you could have the same brand of pizza, with the same toppings? After a day, you've had 3 meals of nothing but pepperoni pizza. After a week that's about 21 meals in a row of nothing but pepperoni pizza. After a month, that's around 84 consecutive meals of nothing but pizza. Besides being incredibly obese at this point, chances are that the mere mention of pizza makes you ill. What happened? Too much of a good thing, not enough variety.
Talk to your girlfriend or wife. Enjoy the same things. Have common interests, but be diversified. Do things with her, but also make sure to do things with other people, and you'll appreciate her that much more.
"This is all great," you say, "but what about me? I became friends with a girl, and then asked her out and she said no. I really don't want to lose my friend!" Too late. It sucks, but you have to completely cut off the friendship.
You need to find a middle path between jerk-dom and being a nice guy. Nobody is going to stay with a complete jerk for long, just like nobody will be interested in someone who is a complete pushover for long (if ever!). What you need to be, is a Man. You need to be a Man for your own happiness, emotional well being, and self-esteem.
In this case, being a Man means biting the bullet, and telling her to hit the road. By asking her out, you've made it apparent that you're interested in more than just being friends with her. When she said no, she told you that you and she want different things out of the relationship. If you could just stop being interested in her, you wouldn't have started reading this post, and you definitely wouldn't have read this far. You know this. Stop lying to yourself. You're not going to change her mind; she's not going to come around.
Why would you want to be with someone who needed to be convinced of why she likes you? When you're serious about a woman, do you really want to spend the next few years, or the rest of your life with someone who had to be talked into it?
Get rid of her. The instant you make your feelings clear to her, get turned down, and keep spending time with her, she begins USING you. She may not intend to use you, but that's exactly what she's doing. You have just been crystallized in the role of "boyfriend lite". You've got all the taste of a boyfriend, but no calories (You're not getting any!). What you are doing is giving her the license to go have sex with whomever she wants at your expense.
How? You're fulfilling the emotional role of a boyfriend. Now she's got that taken care of. You know you're not having sex with her, so what does she do? She goes out and hooks up with random guys. It gets better though! After she's done doing whatever with whomever, because you and her are such good friends, guess who she's going to come share her stories with first? You!
There is absolutely no logical reason to continue a relationship with her. Every time she meets and hooks up with a random guy instead of you, she's saying to you that you're not good enough. You've been judged, and found wanting. This girl is saying to you "You're not good enough for me to want to have sex with, but this guy I met at a party and knew for half an hour was DEFINITELY good enough." If you're okay with lusting after her, standing idly by while a woman you're emotionally interested in has sex with other men, and jerking off by yourself night after night while fantasizing about her, you don't need me. If you've got any balls at all, you're going to realize that this is not right, and you're not going to put up with it.
There is absolutely no reason to PUT YOURSELF THROUGH this kind of torture. That's exactly what you're doing. Torturing yourself, degrading yourself, and then coming back for more. A Man doesn't do that. A doormat does that, a wimp does that, YOU do NOT do that. You are a Man. Think it, Know it, Believe it and you will become one, even if you aren't right now.
So you've realized you need to get rid of this cancer in your life. This is the hard part, the painful part. You're friends, she's great. Of course she is, you wouldn't have been interested in her otherwise!
Chances are, she's going to try to talk you out of it. This is the Moment Of Truth. You don't have to like this part; you just have to do it. You're not going to let her use you.
Every time she meets another guy, she's telling you that you just aren't good enough.
Every time she has sex with another guy, she's going to come back and tell you about it.
She is going to date other men. You and her are NOT going to date. Do you really want to hear about all the ways he's perfect for her, and you aren't?
You're telling her to take a hike and she says, "I want to date you." Your heart leaps for joy, you hastily accept, and think to yourself say, "Great! I win!" Wrong! What you just did is agree to willingly and happily walk right into her trap (which she may not even realize she's laid). She pulled out the big guns. This is the atomic bomb of emotional manipulation. You do not want a woman you had to give an ultimatum to before she would consider you. She doesn't want you. If she really wanted to date you, when you asked her out initially she would have said yes. Do you really want to emotionally commit to a relationship in which your girl essentially said, "Well, I guess if I have to choose between having sex with you and not ever seeing you again, I guess I'll just have to buckle down and (ugh) have sex with you.. Can I keep my eyes closed?"
It's just not worth it. By not making the healthy choice and moving on with your life, you're asking for a world of pain, stress, and depression. For what? You already have friends, ones who aren't using you, and who will still be there for you after this woman is gone.
You can't be friends. It's not going to work. Make the right decision, be a Man and move on. I guarantee you, nobody is unique. There are billions of people on this planet, and you WILL find someone who is what you are looking for and is interested in you too.

Good luck,
Angstrom
 

Angstrom

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Wow

Didn't realize I had that much to say about being friends. I don't know if this has been dealt with before, but I just wanted to vent and get that off my chest.
 

golf299

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i have personally lived your post in the past. you are dead on with your evaluation. good job! girls as friends dont work if someone in the dyad is interested in more than friendship...and someone always is.
 

Angstrom

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Wrong Section?

Hmm. perhaps this would have been better placed into the Don Juan Tips category. Sorry, I've only been a member of the forums for... an hour or two now. :)
 

darkhorse

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Paragraphs. Editing. More people will read it.


[Edit] : But good post, once I hacked through reading it.
 
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nowonder

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"...Do Not Become Friends With A Woman You Are Not Having Sex With..."

Very good input. A girl who is a FRIEND of me does not want to date (or have sex with) me. She said: "I can't date and have sex with friends!"
 

DJ Girevik

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You forgot one part

Good post, but you forgot to add: IT'S OKAY to be her friend if that's all you want out of it, and you haven't previously asked her out. There's a difference between friends and LJBF...
 

Angstrom

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Feedback

Paragraphs. Editing. More people will read it.
Darkhorse: I didn't write it really for other people to read it so much as I really felt like I needed to convince myself to tell a girl to hit the road. I wrote that this morning right before telling an incredible girl that I didn't want to talk again. I didn't think I would be able to do it because i had been talked out of it by her before. It was a way for me to psych myself up and I felt that doing it in a public way would help strengthen my resolve. I don't have a web journal or homepage, so I chose this forum. My comment about it possibly belonging in the tips section was in regards to the fact that in my opinion, my post really doesn't pose much of an item for discussion.

Good post, but you forgot to add: IT'S OKAY to be her friend if that's all you want out of it, and you haven't previously asked her out. There's a difference between friends and LJBF...
DJ Girevik: Sure, there are exceptions to the rule. If you've already got a girl you're truly in love with and would never even consider cheating on no matter what kind of alcohol/drugs you take, if she's coyote ugly, if she's got some sort of personality problem which would keep you from wanting to date her. Maybe it's a combination of those, or something else. Ugly doesn't matter for friendship, so go for it. I don't think the first option comes up very often for many guys, but if it does for you, great! If she's got a personality problem, I can't really see how being friends with her would realistically work. You just can't be friends with crazy people. If you can think of other examples where being friends would realistically work, i'd love to hear them.
 

1ofthemany

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dam*

That was quite a piece of work Angstrom... Dam*. Good-good-good information in that 10 page work. That actually brought some realizations to myself about being friends with girls and all that other stuff you stated, but which I am too lazy to quote. Great Job bro; insightful stuff.
 

trowit

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Great Post!

Why couldn't you have written it three months ago?

Would've hepled me see through a lot of BS.
 

wheelin&dealin

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Who is this guy???



Angstrom comes out of the woods and with his first post lights up the DJ board. That was some good sh!t.

If only I could have came here with that much prior knowledge.

Great post, man!
 
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jamescr73

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Angstrom,
Dude, I dont know really what to say. This opened my eyes to another dimension of light. I welcome you to the forum, and look foward to more of your readings. Job well done.
 

Slashco

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Good post, but there is one thing I don't understand. What if you really do want to be friends with a girl (say she's fun to be with, smart, funny, whatever) but you're not physically attracted to her? Are you saying men can't have any female friends unless there is a possibility of sex?
 

Angstrom

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Feeling longwinded again

Originally posted by Slashco
Good post, but there is one thing I don't understand. What if you really do want to be friends with a girl (say she's fun to be with, smart, funny, whatever) but you're not physically attracted to her? Are you saying men can't have any female friends unless there is a possibility of sex?
Am I saying that men can't have female friends unless there is a possiblity of sex? No.

I'm saying that, with some exceptions, men can't have female friends unless they are having sex with that woman.

Here's why I think that. I think you'll agree with me that there are different components to attraction. In this case, of course, we're talking about in terms of long-term relationships. When you're just trying to get laid, all you care about is how hot she is, end of story, right? I think you can also agree that it's possible for people to become more or less physically attractive based on their personality.

Well, what do guys look for in women they want to actually become involved with? I'd say pretty typically, most guys are looking for the same general things. Pretty, fun to be with, smart, can talk to you, a girl who can make you laugh and laugh with you, whatever, right?

Well, to me, that sounds strangely like your list of why you would want to be friends with a woman! You'd probably even become pretty close friends with that woman.

You know she's your emotional/mental type, generally. I bet you're gonna be doing lots of fun things with her. Probably have some real deep emotional conversations, the kind you woudn't have with your golf/drinking buddies or whoever it is you spend your free time with. Maybe you get to the point where you think nothing of leaning up against her during a movie or watching tv. Lots of hugs, maybe even the occasional shoulder rub. All friendly stuff, which is cool because you guys are comfortable around each other. You both know you're not attracted to each other, and it's just being friends.

I'm sure you can see where i'm going with this.

Fun things tend to lead to positive thinking about that person. You're associating this woman with good feelings. Then, you're really comfortable, and friendly Non-Sexual touching casually happens. You're opening yourself up emotionally to her in ways that you wouldn't open yourself up to a man.

Well, gosh, that sure sounds like what a man would do to a woman in order to seduce her! You make her associate you with good feelings. You introduce Kino, which is non-sexual touch. And once you're in the relationship with her, you open yourself up emotionally to the woman.

Do you really think that men are immune to the techniques discussed on this board? Men get seduced all the time. The difference here, is that you are seducing yourself!

That's why i said to DJ Girevik that, barring special circumstances, it will never work. Ever. If she's not the kind of ugly you'd gnaw your arm off to get away from, you are going to fall in love with her. You will become attracted to her physically. It might not be in a month, it might not be in a year. It WILL happen. I give you my Personal Guarantee on this one. Don't take my word for it, though. I know that the plural of anecdote isn't data, but consider it research. Ask your co-workers, friends, family about this. Virtually everyone who's tried to have a male/female has a story about it going wrong, or personally knows someone who's had a problem with it. If they say that there's no way anything would happen, ask them to imagine this scenario. Both people are in the same place, in the mood, and add alcohol or your substance of choice. Now, the woman says to the man, "I know we're friends, but I REALLY need to get laid, right now. I want you to take me, right here." or some permutation thereof. Do you really think you, or any guy, would say no? If you think you can, you're a better man than I.
 

Squy

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Hey Angstrom.

Might-be just me, but what are you really trying to say in the first post? Hard to get your main point.
If you care, would you please cut it down and present your main point in....like 7 sentences? Thanks.
 

Angstrom

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Originally posted by Squy
If you care, would you please cut it down and present your main point in....like 7 sentences? Thanks.
The only woman you should ever be friends with is your girlfriend.
If you're already friends with a woman, either date her or don't talk to her anymore unless you're a masochist.
 
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