Nice Guys

[Zunder]

Is the seminar for semantics or is for interpreation of tone and mood? Or do I need to move over to another thread?

Too much absolute thinking (read black and white) in this thread.

The term "nice guy" is being misunderstood. In the proper context "nice guy" is a polite euphemism a woman uses to say you're not sexually attractive, you don't charge me up emotionally, you are boring etc.

It really has little to do with your behavior accept when you pedestal or buy things for women in the attempt to try to curry favor.

You don't have to be a world class arse to be good with women. You just have to have strong boundaries and enforce them, which also means don't let a woman walk all over you.

Sometimes in standing firm a woman will accuse you of being a jerk/etc but that's merely to challenge your position rather than actually complaining about your decision. It's a test to see if you hold firm to your boundaries with the idea being a filter to see if you are a man and take no guff or if you are just pretending to be one and will fold at the first sign of resistance.

So be a good guy just understand that success w/woman is about maintaining your status as a man.

Of the successful relationships that my mates have been in, I have NEVER heard their girlfriend refer to them as a "Nice Guy" - never ever never.

To me being nice is supplicating yourself to a woman - being a man is standing your ground in what you believe in, even if it makes you short of pvssy for a time...or a long time.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Zecko,
Just looking around me and reflecting on life,I partially agree with you....Men often morph into "Good Guys" as they settle down,but while there are a significant proportion of Women who respond to Nice Guys,in general it is a recipe for being walked all over...Naah...Treat em rough,ride em hard.

 

[zekko]

Scaramouche: I am a firm believer in the "treat 'em rough, ride 'em hard" idea (at least sexually - I'm not advocating domestic violence). I just don't think that has anything to do with whether or not you are "nice" or a "good person".

The way some guys insist on defining "nice" as wimpy, I wonder if there aren't regional differences in meaning. Here in the midwest, a "nice guy" pretty much means "good person", and the word is used very commonly. "The weather is nice" doesn't mean "The weather is sucking up to me".

Or are you actually saying that if you are a good person you will repel women? Let's see the cards on the table.

Of course, being a good person is a relative term. Clint Eastwood played the "good guy" in his movies, and was a definite bad@ss. But he was still the good guy, there's no question about that.

 

[zekko]

Let's look at the Eastwood movie "A Fistful of Dollars". Near the end of the movie he frees a woman from one of the gangs, reunites her with her husband and son, and sends them out of town. He even gives her some money to tide them over.

He does a Nice thing here, doesn't he?
He does a Good Deed.
Is he being concilliatory to the woman?
By gosh, he's even being a Capt. Save a Ho!

Yet this doesn't make him wimpy or immasculine by any stretch, does it? Would women be repelled by him for this action? While it might draw him criticism from some of the DJs on this forum, I think not.

 

[typical]

Let's look at the Eastwood movie "A Fistful of Dollars". Near the end of the movie he frees a woman from one of the gangs, reunites her with her husband and son, and sends them out of town. He even gives her some money to tide them over.

He does a Nice thing here, doesn't he?
He does a Good Deed.
Is he being concilliatory to the woman?
By gosh, he's even being a Capt. Save a Ho!

Yet this doesn't make him wimpy or immasculine by any stretch, does it? Would women be repelled by him for this action? While it might draw him criticism from some of the DJs on this forum, I think not.

.................. You're using a movie as an example ? I must admit either the rest of the world is really messed up or the USA has a tonne of damaged men running around.

When your out with a woman or just interacting with them and they pull out the "aww your such a nice guy" that translates back to "Dude your boring me here do something so I can give my body to you or I'm gonna chuck you into the friends list".

When you ask a woman what her partner is like she will always always always say "He is a really nice/good man" regardless of if the man she is with is a strong leader or a total weakling. She will never ever put her man down infront of other men unless she wants to hook up with said man or is bit(hing about her man to her girlfriends and poofta guy friends.

I am 100% sure of one thing though the amount of "strong leader" type of men around in the western countries is pathetically low. I work as a supervisor at my local airport and the amount of whipped men coming through from international flights is amazing. Whats startling is that most of these whipped men are white causcasian's.

A fellow worker pulled out a funny race related joke just a few weeks ago, he said you know the difference between the white men and the coloured men is?

The white man will stand in our shop wanting to buy his favourite products but will seek for approval from his woman, who meanwhile goes and spends around $500-$1000 and scolds her husband/fiance/bf with "don't you have that at home already?", after a breif exchange of looks the man backs out and offers the whole "shall I pay for that dear" and she retorts back with "don't worry I have your card".

The coloured men however buy what they want and their women ask their men if its alright if they go and look through our store and buy a few things for themselves. At the end of the joke he blatently states that non-caucasian men have "balls" and that the women know who the boss is.

He goes further and says thats why so many white guys come through with an asian/indian or other dark skinned lady by his side its because our darker skinned women are better looking more feminine and less bit(hy.

And TBH we see this scenario play out at least a goot 50 times per day on nearly every flight.

Now back on topic about that movie ............. yes he is a good man but a stupid man, he could have just set her free and taken the money and started a good life for himself, instead he goes off into the sunset looking for another adventure but never planning for a future.

 

[zekko]

You're using a movie as an example ?

Sure, we're talking mostly about image here.

When you ask a woman what her partner is like she will always always always say "He is a really nice/good man" regardless of if the man she is with is a strong leader or a total weakling. She will never ever put her man down infront of other men

THIS is exactly the point I'm trying to make. You're saying that if she DOESN'T say her man is a nice guy, it's a putdown. And yet several posters here claim that EVERY TIME a woman uses the term "nice guy", it's a putdown. They're saying that EVERY use of the term "nice guy" is negative. And yet you say she will "stick up" for her man by saying he's a nice guy.

This is exactly the point I am trying to make. "Nice guy" has two meanings, and both men and women will use both meanings. It's not PUA dogma "Every time a woman says nice guy it's a bad thing". You guys who buy into all this pickup stuff are too rigid in your thinking.

Too much absolute thinking (read black and white) in this thread.

The term "nice guy" is being misunderstood. In the proper context "nice guy" is a polite euphemism a woman uses to say you're not sexually attractive, you don't charge me up emotionally, you are boring etc.

I agree there is too much black and white thinking here. And you're right about that meaning of the term "nice guy", IN THAT CONTEXT.

However, when a woman says "You're a nice guy, but...", it's not the "nice guy" part that means she's not sexually attracted to you, it's the "but". She's saying, look you're a decent guy and all, but I'm not sexually attracted to you. She's trying to let you down easy.

She's not saying "Look, you're boring and sexually unattractive, but I'm just not that into you". That makes no sense. She's trying to give you a compliment as a consolation prize. In this context, "nice guy" is a compliment. It's the "but" part where she lets you down.

 

[typical]

It's also the "BUT" part that most guys should be looking out for. Having said all this though I still would not make much of any woman on what she says about you or any other guy she's talking about. Unless she makes it blatently obvious that you stand no shot with her keep testing the waters till you get a cold response then just bail as "nicely" as you can

The PUA rubbish forms a decent starting point into learning game but after a while you have to change and become a natural otherwise your flaws will be picked up sooner or later in years to come.

Ever see the so called PUA artists at work they always target girls that I wouldn't ever talk too simply because they are not the type of girls that I'm attracted too, also when was the last time you met a really fun good looking chick at a bar or club ? Most of their material is good but its too linear and boring and lame and many times I smashed c*nts (verbally) trying to pull off canned routines while out with my mates or girl mates.

 

[FairShake]

I notice several posters seem to associate dominance over their wives or mates with "bad" or "not nice" behavior. I wonder where this perception comes from. Perhaps the feminist influence is deeper than I thought.

This is simply the natural male role, or traditional male role as 5string puts it. If anything, I would call this "good" behavior, not bad. Of course, to lead well, one must be a good, fair leader.

Not me. I usually date and was married to very intelligent and successful women. Women who didn't want or need my dominance.

I don't need the ego trip or hassle. I guess I prefer women with a good head on their shoulders who have their own life. If I need head games to keep them below me and around then I'm not sure I want them.

Edit: But one night stands and f-buddies were a completely different story. I would lead all the way there. But they had to have some backbone and not be an AFC if they wanted to come back around.

 

[Nutz]

Believe it or not, women do want a "nice guy". They just have to be attracted to him first. If you're a nice guy and the woman you're interested in is not attracted to you, then you're going to end up in the friend zone at best, or come off as creepy at worse. Humans treasure what they have to work for, so giving yourselves over to a woman hand and foot without her earning you first just ruins your chances of being valued in a romantic fashion.

 

[The_411]

Zekko,

I'll reiterate my stance a woman saying you are nice does not preclude you from getting physical but it is often coded language suggesting a lack of sexual interest.

Regarding your Clint Eastwood argument, what Clint did wasn't AFC because he's acting benevolently with no interest in trying to curry favor he's doing it of his volition and there's no known tangible reward for his actions.

Being AFC has to do with breaking/bending your own principles, changing your time schedule, changing your routine just to be with a girl or placate her. I.E. supplicating in the attempt to be liked.

I think everyone here can agree that being a decent human being, good guy is not mutually inclusive with being an AFC.

Being an ass makes women respond because they become charged to try to fix you. The more you resist their changes the more they persevere.

However, I know plenty of good guys who are ladies men and they would do anything for their good friends and won't treat people liek garbage. They are very social and know who they are which is what this all really about knowing yourself and not getting enveloped by a relationship.

 

[f283000]

You have this weird personal crusade against PUA teaching (sometimes completely imagined by yourself) that has clouded your senses. Gotta do better next time, old man.

I guess i am not the only one that has noticed this. I don't find his personal crusade against pua teachings weird i find them rather treasonous and counter-productive to helping guys in need of help.

 

[zekko]

F283000, if you find what I've said treasonous, I doubt very much that you have actually read what I wrote. I stated very clearly I agree with everything the PUAs say in regard to the stereotypical "Nice Guy".

What I disagree with is the idea that every time a woman uses the words "nice" or "nice guy", that it is meant in a negative light. To teach that is misleading and not in tune with reality. I have given examples as to why this is not so.

It is a disservice to new guys who need help to lead them to believe that they must jettison all trace of human kindness and compassion in order to attract women. If you truly believe that I don't know what planet you are living on. I don't even see this as being "official" PUA teaching, but rather the belief of a number of posters who misunderstand the material.

You really think my example of Clint Eastwood as a good guy who has retained his masculinity as harmful to new guys who need help? Really.

 

[zekko]

Words alone hold no meaning; it's the context in which they're used that matters.

If my wife told her friend in front of me how nice I am, I would have no problem with it. Our frame and dynamic is sound and apparent to her and other females and males. Not to mention, women communicate beyond words, especially to one another.

We men sometimes get too hung up on the literal and the verbatim. Pay attention to context and subtext when it comes to anything a woman says.

Yes, very well said.
The term "Nice Guy" as it relates to pickup/seduction is essentially a teaching tool.
It's not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Jitterbug]

zekko, no woman would ever literally call Clint Eastwood in the Man With No Name trilogy a "nice guy", not even that woman he saved. He just shot a whole bunch of people dead! In fact, I just watched that trilogy with my Dad. That woman looked at him with both gratitude and fear (and quite turned on). Not only he showed himself as capable of killing people without blinking, he knocked her out cold once with his fists when she ran into him as he was sneaking into the gang leader's house.

If you want to refute whatever imagined PUA teaching you are against, please use better examples.

 

[Mike32ct]

Believe it or not, women do want a "nice guy". They just have to be attracted to him first.

Exactly.

If she isn't physically attracted to you, she will reject you and tell you that you are nice or too nice. But nice isn't the real problem. You just aren't her physical type. She doesn't have the heart to tell you that you are not attractive (enough). Being nice or a jerk or somewhere in between is not going to make any difference here.

The other situation is when the guy IS physically attractive to her, but he is a doormat. She will lose attraction for him. But his being nice isn't the real problem. His lack of self-respect is.

Her dream man is good looking, has self-respect, AND is nice.

 

[Jitterbug]

Mike32ct, I've slept with a few women who have a cold enough heart to tell me to my face that I'm not their physical type and even describe their type to me. I was very much a jerk to them after that, starting with my describing my types of women who are everything they're not and hate. I dare say, that made the difference.

Have you ever heard of women using the phrase "sexy ugly" to describe a guy? Not that I'm ugly I'm apparently quite easy on the eyes according to some, just short. But the existence of that phrase should tell you something.

 

[zekko]

zekko, no woman would ever literally call Clint Eastwood in the Man With No Name trilogy a "nice guy".

Heh, well you are probably right there. That's why I said being a good guy is relative. He was a good guy relative to all the bad guys in the movie. But he didn't shoot anyone who didn't have it coming, and he did protect those in need of protection.

Mike32ct, I've slept with a few women who have a cold enough heart to tell me to my face that I'm not their physical type and even describe their type to me. I was very much a jerk to them after that, starting with my describing my types of women who are everything they're not and hate. I dare say, that made the difference.

Well, I've turned around women's opinions of me also, although I didn't have to become a jerk to do it. I just amped up the sexuality, and probably the important thing was I remained unreactive to their initial dismissal of me (this is going back quite a few years).

Some women respond to jerk game, there's no question about that. Although I find those women tend to be rather trashy, or else lack options. I would say any woman that would have the "cold heart" to tell you what those girls did was clearly not a quality woman, and would not respond to a nice guy anyway. Like attracts like, at least sometimes. These are the same types of girls who respond well to players.

 

[Jitterbug]

Those girls are not quality women, I agree, but they are far from trashy. They are your typical SWPL feminist-minded professional / grad school chicks who are obsessed with showing the world how nice they are to everyone (the comments were made while drinking with me in private). In fact, for some reason I do really well with those faux-smart chicks but always fail with the trashy ones.

 

[zekko]

In fact, for some reason I do really well with those faux-smart chicks but always fail with the trashy ones.

I think what's getting lost here is that different guys run different styles.
No doubt you run your style of game well, so it's effective.
Send five different guys with five different styles into a club, and they may all be successful as long as they do what they do well.

It's not like any one woman is likely to only respond to one type of approach, and one only.