Nice Guys Who Win-Is Being a Nice Guy Underrated Here?

[Jeffst1980]

Slaog's post is spot on re: definitions of "nice."

If you do something "nice" just to get something in return (e.g. a woman's affections), it isn't really "nice." In this case, it will work against you.

However, if you are a high valued, non-needy male, kind acts will work to your benefit and make you extremely attractive to their female recipients.

In other words, don't worry about being perceived as "nice" or not. Focus on becoming a man of high value. I would define a man of high value as someone who is confident, ambitious, influential, and socially tactful--women actually find good manners to be attractive because they say something about a man's place in society.

If you're a high valued male (which IMO has less to do with wealth than personality traits; if you don't have a good career, you should at least be seen as ambitious), you can get away with a lot of missteps. This is because high valued males are in short supply, and women know when they've got a catch.

As for AFCs, they're the norm (hence the word "average"), so obviously they will be able to get laid, find girlfriends, and get married. If they're lucky, their marriage will even last! It's really not that unheard of--that's life. However, they are operating with a significant disadvantage when compared to high valued males, and their lives will be greatly complicated by unnecessary AFC problems. Life is just easier for high valued males, and as a result, they tend to contribute more to society as well as charity. So, in some ways, the high valued male is the real "nice" guy.

Our goal is become the best version of ourselves. As long as you work towards that goal you shouldn't have to overanalyze whether or not your behavior is "alpha."

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

WAIT OUT, I'll leave your post, but put an age on your profile if you intend to post more in the MM forum.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Slaog's post is spot on re: definitions of "nice."

If you do something "nice" just to get something in return (e.g. a woman's affections), it isn't really "nice." In this case, it will work against you.

However, if you are a high valued, non-needy male, kind acts will work to your benefit and make you extremely attractive to their female recipients.

I agree with this in principle, but in practice it falls apart. The problem being that 'nice' behavior is taught to be an indicator of that mindset for a woman. For instance, when so many AFCs exhibit 'nice guy' behavior, that becomes the standard for that type of guy. You can be a high value Man, but that value is associated with the Man's behavior. In the beginning of an approach I'd argue against 'going nice' because there is no establishment of higher value initially. This is where the AFC falls apart, he defaults to 'nice' behavior which is then associated with a Scarcity Mentality, Feminine Identification, Information Overload, a need for affirmation, etc.

From the outset of an approach until you can reasonably measure her IL for you as well as her estimation of you as a High Value Man, 'nice' behavior will only be a detriment. One you've demonstrated high value then an occasional 'nice' behavior may be appreciated as a treat for her to work in your favor. It's called selective generosity, but there has to be a pre-understanding of your character first in order for it to work. Do it without this from the outset and you'll be just like any number of other chumps who did the exact same thing.

 

[SXS]

I agree with this in principle, but in practice it falls apart. The problem being that 'nice' behavior is taught to be an indicator of that mindset for a woman. For instance, when so many AFCs exhibit 'nice guy' behavior, that becomes the standard for that type of guy. You can be a high value Man, but that value is associated with the Man's behavior. In the beginning of an approach I'd argue against 'going nice' because there is no establishment of higher value initially. This is where the AFC falls apart, he defaults to 'nice' behavior which is then associated with a Scarcity Mentality, Feminine Identification, Information Overload, a need for affirmation, etc.
From the outset of an approach until you can reasonably measure her IL for you as well as her estimation of you as a High Value Man, 'nice' behavior will only be a detriment. One you've demonstrated high value then an occasional 'nice' behavior may be appreciated as a treat for her to work in your favor. It's called selective generosity, but there has to be a pre-understanding of your character first in order for it to work. Do it without this from the outset and you'll be just like any number of other chumps who did the exact same thing.

The guy just brought some medicine to the girl...

 

[jophil28]

The guy just brought some medicine to the girl...

Yep, he just bought her some medicine. That used to be filed under "decent acts".

 

[thedeparted]

Yep, he just bought her some medicine. That used to be filed under "decent acts".

Ha ha. I have discovered the perfect way to end a relationship: make some chicken soup for your girlfriend when she is sick. She will be all appreciative and happy at the time. Within two weeks, though, she will dump you. This has happened to me THREE TIMES!

Now, if a girl is sick, I'll tell her not to call me or come over until she gets better. Women prefer to be treated like dirt. What can we do?

 

[jophil28]

Ha ha. I have discovered the perfect way to end a relationship: make some chicken soup for your girlfriend when she is sick. She will be all appreciative and happy at the time. Within two weeks, though, she will dump you. This has happened to me THREE TIMES!

Now, if a girl is sick, I'll tell her not to call me or come over until she gets better. Women prefer to be treated like dirt. What can we do?

It is YOUR sucky cooking, dude !!
If you PM me I will shoot you a recipe for chichen soup that will get you laid like an egg. Ha ha !

 

[slaog]

I agree with this in principle, but in practice it falls apart. The problem being that 'nice' behavior is taught to be an indicator of that mindset for a woman. For instance, when so many AFCs exhibit 'nice guy' behavior, that becomes the standard for that type of guy. You can be a high value Man, but that value is associated with the Man's behavior. In the beginning of an approach I'd argue against 'going nice' because there is no establishment of higher value initially. This is where the AFC falls apart, he defaults to 'nice' behavior which is then associated with a Scarcity Mentality, Feminine Identification, Information Overload, a need for affirmation, etc.

From the outset of an approach until you can reasonably measure her IL for you as well as her estimation of you as a High Value Man, 'nice' behavior will only be a detriment. One you've demonstrated high value then an occasional 'nice' behavior may be appreciated as a treat for her to work in your favor. It's called selective generosity, but there has to be a pre-understanding of your character first in order for it to work. Do it without this from the outset and you'll be just like any number of other chumps who did the exact same thing.

But if you're DHV, confidence and being the prize it shouldn't really matter. If you have set boundaries and she knows you can walk away at any time then being nice will be seen as a great bonus.


There are different ways of being nice too. If you are going over the top then she'll suspect something but DJ's don't go over the top nice anyway. Maybe when approaching it has to be toned down alright.

If you know these guys, what's your opinion of them? Are they cool in that they are congruent with who they are so being nice is genuine and comes from a position of strengh, or are they insecure AFCs who act nice in awe of her sexuality?

Watch them around other people. If they are nice to their partners but rude to others then thats not being congruent. They'll also be generally happy people compared to nice AFC's.

 

[Knight's Cross]

Slaog brings up an excellent point. Congruence. I dated a lady once that was very giving to me. She could however go 0 ot bitc# in 3.2 seconds. ESPECIALLY with service type people. I once watched her talk down a sales clerk in a furniture store. I was literally embarrassed. I then calmly told her to apologize. She looked at me with daggers, but slowly turned and did as I asked. He accepted her apology, we left, and she was happy as a clam with me in about 20 minutes.
Yes, be nice. Also have a backbone. Do not accept crap behavior. Like Rollo mentioned, you can use "nice" as a motivator. It's not a given. It's best doled out when you have already established high IL, and that she's a giver. As for taking the girl some medicine~ I too have had better luck telling a plate that was sick that she should stay home and get better. I have always had bad luck when I tried to help a gal that was sick. Not saying the drop off of some medicine was over the top. I'd just absolutely go no farther than that. DO NOT cook for them, do not pamper them.
KC

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

But if you're DHV, confidence and being the prize it shouldn't really matter.

The behaviors that are manifested from internalized Confidence and a PRIZE mentality IS a demonstration of higher value. So, yes, they do really matter.

If you have set boundaries and she knows you can walk away at any time then being nice will be seen as a great bonus.

Setting boundaries and an ability to walk away are derivatives from the confidence that you have in acknowledging that she is one of many options (and/or your ability to generate more). However, as I posted above, initially she must come to appreciate your attention as a commodity first in order for her to appreciate any 'niceties' you may see fit to give her. Failing to do this makes your attentions commonplace and mundane because they are too easily given or unearned (and thus worthless) like any number of other guys doing the same.

A woman must first value your attentions, have an IL and be attracted to you before she'll ever appreciate 'nice' gestures on your part. No amount of 'nice' gestures will ever be a substitute for IL, attraction, and appreciated attention. Doing something 'nice' has to seem uncharacteristic and spontaneous for it to truly be appreciated - as if to say "I don't usually do this sort of thing, but for you I would,..occasionally." That 'nice' gesture will never be appreciated if it's already your habit to do so - as if to say, "I do this for all the girls I'm interested in."

Niceties, kind generosities, are worthless if they aren't appreciated, and in fact are counterproductive when they are too available because they imply an obligation. You may never have intended there to be an expectation of her to reciprocate your 'niceness', but when applied too often (and indiscriminately) obligation is implied for her on her own part.

 

[wait_out]

Intriguing. I'm just waiting to hear more weigh ins by wait out.

I don't have that many, man! Most of the time I live without a net connection. It's interesting to see how everybody tries to process the chaos of modernized society though.

I think the point here is that being nice alone won't get you any favors, and if it comes across as spineless (even if not) you will be seen as weak. If you can't set boundaries, you ARE spineless. Considering how quickly women categorize people, you're probably better off not even trying to be nice, because they'll misinterpret it.

Just make sure you hold onto those qualities even if you don't demonstrate them -- empathy is a good human quality. No need to give that up just because women are idiots. Just save it for first aid and crisis situations, not everyday "wah wah wah" BS. Women have girlfriends for that.

If she actually knows you well (ie. married), it's a different story, but I think understanding relationship dynamics is more complicated than attraction. This stuff is as personal as it gets. To the OP -- a relationship a year old is nothing. Check back in 2, 5, 10 years, etc, as well as understanding their childhoods and attachment patterns, and you may understand why they're together. Maybe not.

As a writer, I have to say that "nice" is probably the most undescriptive adjective in the english language. Maybe that's why people like to describe themselves that way -- because you can't make a judgement on something that assumes no values?

Don't be that...

 

[Energizer]

I'm not an alpha male and I still attract women, I am considered nice and lovely by some girls and I still land women, as long as you aren't a complete tool and avoid getting sucker punched and abused by women, always maintain a high sense of self esteem and confidence, then you can land a gorgeous girl.

 

[SXS]

Yep, he just bought her some medicine. That used to be filed under "decent acts".

But some people here acts like he is commiting a crime for doing something for a woman... He certainly had some connection already with the girl. It's not like in the office 500 guys bought medicine for the girl to be nice. He was the only one.
You guys overanalyze things too much.

 

[slaog]

The behaviors that are manifested from internalized Confidence and a PRIZE mentality IS a demonstration of higher value. So, yes, they do really matter.



Setting boundaries and an ability to walk away are derivatives from the confidence that you have in acknowledging that she is one of many options (and/or your ability to generate more). However, as I posted above, initially she must come to appreciate your attention as a commodity first in order for her to appreciate any 'niceties' you may see fit to give her. Failing to do this makes your attentions commonplace and mundane because they are too easily given or unearned (and thus worthless) like any number of other guys doing the same.

A woman must first value your attentions, have an IL and be attracted to you before she'll ever appreciate 'nice' gestures on your part. No amount of 'nice' gestures will ever be a substitute for IL, attraction, and appreciated attention. Doing something 'nice' has to seem uncharacteristic and spontaneous for it to truly be appreciated - as if to say "I don't usually do this sort of thing, but for you I would,..occasionally." That 'nice' gesture will never be appreciated if it's already your habit to do so - as if to say, "I do this for all the girls I'm interested in."

.

Isn't that AFC behaviour? If you're doing nice things out of character then you're not being yourself.


I think there are different types of nice behaviour. If it's genuine and you just are a nice guy the woman will appricate it because they know. She'll see you being nice to other people.


As we all know there's more to attracting women then being nice.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Isn't that AFC behaviour? If you're doing nice things out of character then you're not being yourself.

Ahhh, and at least we come to it, what is being yourself? You decide who you will be. Why not Just Be Yourself

I think there are different types of nice behaviour. If it's genuine and you just are a nice guy the woman will appricate it because they know.

What's the more likely scenario for a woman past the age of say 23; She's so unaccustomed to guys being nice that she genuinely appreciates your "unique" Nice behavior and becomes attracted to you for it, OR she's had so many guys do exactly the same thing in an effort to prove they "aren't like other non-nice guys", that she learns it is yet one more method guys use to get to her intimacy and therefore doesn't appreciate it and reciprocate intimacy?

Sites like SoSuave don't exist because SO many guys are getting too much pussie because they've been too nice.

 

[slaog]

What's the more likely scenario for a woman past the age of say 23; She's so unaccustomed to guys being nice that she genuinely appreciates your "unique" Nice behavior and becomes attracted to you for it, OR she's had so many guys do exactly the same thing in an effort to prove they "aren't like other non-nice guys", that she learns it is yet one more method guys use to get to her intimacy and therefore doesn't appreciate it and reciprocate intimacy?

Sites like SoSuave don't exist because SO many guys are getting too much pussie because they've been too nice.

But women can tell if men are acting nice a or if they are genuine. Maybe not when approaching but after a while.


AFC's are nice because they're looking for something off the women. Thats what really turns them off.


I think the question is, 'are you an AFC if you are nice'? For me the answer is no.

 

[jophil28]

Often times women say," He is such a nice guy" ...It sounds ( to me at least) like an accollade, even a reward for "sweet" behavior on his part. THis is always said by women with a tinge of affection, gratitude and appreciation. They clearly approve of his actions BUT when asked if they would date him with sexual intentions, frequently fumble and stumble over saying " probably not" ..

The mistake that men have always made is in assuming that women who regard nice guys as decent ,generous men will be ATTRACTED to those same guys as a consequence of their generosity alone. As RT said, unless she sees you as a man of value FIRST , all the "niceness' in the world will not generate sexual attraction.
Surely, a women will date a "nice" guy on a regular basis because he is providing her with gifts, dinners, outings and attention. Her female opportunistic nature is at work here, not her hormones.

Sadly we all learn that what women say is poorly reflected in what they ultimately do.

 

[Jeffst1980]

In some situations, I find that negs/c&f are completely out of place. An example is when you are in a place where you have high social proof and your target does not. Or, if a woman is showing clear signs of interest via compliments. If you neg in this situation, you break rapport and can easily come off as arrogant.

In those situations, I like to do a combination of "nice" and "distracted." When I say "nice," I just mean that I give them good feelings--I express genuine interest in their life and radiate good vibes. At the same time, I don't pay them 100% of my attention--think of how a class act celebrity treats a fan.

If you have high value and a girl is showing you signs of interest, getting laid is more a matter of "not f-ing things up" rather than "running game." It's counterproductive to introduce tension in a scenario where there is already compliance. This should also be the default setting for extremely good looking guys.

I save negs for girls that really need to be taken down a peg, or that aren't paying me enough attention. Those are the times when a neg can change the course of an interaction for the better. In a situation where you have no social proof or value (primarily bars/clubs), you're going to need to do something to set yourself apart from the pack. "Game" is really designed for cold approaches. However, cold approaches are always going to be more work than approaches done in a setting where you have established value.

 

[Jitterbug]

You don't want to be constantly C+F for sure. C+F one moment, nice the next, mix it up to get her on that rollercoaster ride!

I think most ppl get C+F and neg wrong. I'd rather use the word "flirty" to avoid confusion. You can be flirty & ****y, you can also be flirty & nice.

 

[jophil28]

In some situations, I find that negs/c&f are completely out of place. An example is when you are in a place where you have high social proof and your target does not. Or, if a woman is showing clear signs of interest via compliments. If you neg in this situation, you break rapport and can easily come off as arrogant.

In those situations, I like to do a combination of "nice" and "distracted." When I say "nice," I just mean that I give them good feelings--I express genuine interest in their life and radiate good vibes. At the same time, I don't pay them 100% of my attention--think of how a class act celebrity treats a fan.

If you have high value and a girl is showing you signs of interest, getting laid is more a matter of "not f-ing things up" rather than "running game." It's counterproductive to introduce tension in a scenario where there is already compliance. This should also be the default setting for extremely good looking guys.

I save negs for girls that really need to be taken down a peg, or that aren't paying me enough attention. Those are the times when a neg can change the course of an interaction for the better. In a situation where you have no social proof or value (primarily bars/clubs), you're going to need to do something to set yourself apart from the pack. "Game" is really designed for cold approaches. However, cold approaches are always going to be more work than approaches done in a setting where you have established value.

Some points that DD and the 'experts' do not grasp.