Need advice from a DJ with inner game.

[Red Legg]

Just accept that ALL women are nutjobs...in 46 years I have not met one that is not,just have fun and use them for sex,this is not rocket science.

 

[darksprezzatura]

If it helps, a lot of time, when a person starts distancing themselves after the emotional investment starts, it is because that person fears vulnerability. It has nothing t do with you, and there is nothing you can do to change it. It's about that person, not you.

There's always a moment in time, or maybe a few moments, when we have to make a decision to trust the other person and allow ourselves to open up in the relationship. Sometimes people choose to cling to fear and pull back. They can do this both consciously and subconsciously - I feel like the majority of the time it is done subconsciously.

In general, moving forward, if this seems to be the pattern with you, then know and own that knowledge. If you decide to invest, know full well/expect full well that she may decide to pull away. That way you wont be surprised when it happens. That and invest slower. This goes along with the idea that you should be somewhat aloof in general. Make her pursue you emotionally. Maybe make it a rule to wait until she asks, before you tell her sensitive info.

Just some thoughts

In my opinion, people who display emotional or physical vulnerability coming from a place of courage instead of sympathy or acceptance are the strongest.

Both the motivations come from mindsets which are poles apart.

Though I agree, investing slowly is good advice so as to not overwhelm the other person.

People who aren't afraid to get hurt physically or emotionally are the ones who realise their wounds will heal.

As they say, life will hit us harder than anyone, it's our choice to stay down or keep moving forward.

 

[fastlife]

This bullet point really appeals to the power struggle in a LTR.

When I sense myself losing frame and SMV in a RS, I start manning the fvck up. I return to this forum. Engage high level Don Juans. I start fixing the AFC moves I'm making. I correct weak behaviors and start leading in the relationship.

Unfortunately, it's usually at a time where I've let her lead for so long that she has cognitive dissonance in thinking I'm being a man or that this is just a temp phase in me trying to regain the power I gave up. She loses the ability to control me because I start saying no more often.

Oddly enough, she loses further attraction and begins branch swinging if she hasn't already.

The important thing I hope I learn is that I get better at recognizing these weak signals in my behavior earlier on in relationships, correct them fast, so I don't keep repeating the weak beta moves over and over and not naturally leading as a man.

Being authentic is a hard thing today because innately without options or plates... I supplicate thinking that will keep her attracted or hanging on with steady interest level and that is cognitive dissonance on own part, mostly blue pill thinking.

I'll let you in on a little secret--A significant portion of women, despite their involuntary arousal in the presence of male strength, will never be able to submit to it on an emotional level. They might fvck you; but they will only stay emotionally invested in weak(er) men where they can maintain a semblance of control (even as they lose sexual arousal for that same man and possibly cheat on him with a man who's stronger). Insecurity, Low Self-Esteem, an ideology of feminine independence & strength, Cluster-B Traits, weak or non-existent father figures (that they were never able to trust) are characteristic of these women; and, unfortunately, the current social climate has made these conditions predominant in the female population.

So, really, you have two choices of how you choose to play your hand (and a third, less available choice):

1. Maintain your strength & agency over the direction of your own life & accept that you will only ever be a short-term player in most women's dualistic mating strategy. Pros: Maintaining freedom & self-respect; protecting time investment; high desire sex. Cons: Lack of stability & consistency; women you might care about will only sporadically hit you up for sex after the initial sexual honeymoon; you (probably) have to be comfortable fvcking girls in a committed relationship; people will try to shame you.
2. Give up your frame (after having enough to get the girl in bed in the first place) & let her betaize you. Pros: Consistent sexual access w/ a girl you like; less effort expended to maintain your other options; high levels of social validation from your/her peers. Cons: Dealing with drama & increasing levels of disrespect; decreased sexual arousal; higher demands on your time & emotional energy; eventual infidelity or a breakup where you're heavily emotionally invested & have let your other options & skills to generate more options atrophy.
3. Pursue Option 1 until you meet a girl who is secure enough to submit to your frame. These girls are super rare and you'll lose sexual access (eventually) to some hotties & girls with sharp intellects or domestic inclinations or charm or any other characteristics you might find desirable in the opposite sex. Pros: Ideal combination of Stability & High Desire Sex; low drama; chance to build a complementary partnership (though you'll have to maintain your frame & these girls aren't tolerant of weakness). Cons: Loss of variety without the drama to keep you emotionally invested (though some of these girls aren't totally opposed to the idea that you're sleeping with other girls); not able to relax your frame the way you might in Option 2; these girls are super rare; might seem a little boring & you might be the one who loses sexual interest in her.

The bottom line is that you can't take these things personally--though loss of sexual access to a girl you like really sucks & it's easy to get caught up in the 'what ifs'--What if I had done X instead of Y? What if her parents had treated her better? Etc. Etc. The fact is that you're in an emotional double bind in a lot of these situations & the only way to 'win' is to figure out your priorities & stick to them with knowledge of how it ends.

There's an interesting paradox in this community & others like it that goes something to the effect that, You have to be a strong man of abundance & to never tolerate disrespect & to be the prize, with the covert contract that a ("Quality") girl will never leave a man like that & If you lose the girl, it was because you weren't strong enough or abundant enough (since, really, she's the prize--because whoever fvcks the hottest girls or can get their "Dream Girls" to love them wins)--or you chose wrong since she just wasn't a "Quality Girl." But so much of that is just idealistic bullsh1t--trying to win old prizes from a new emotional paradigm where those prizes (since they were only illusions in the first place) don't even exist.

It doesn't account for the fact that girls are operating a Dualistic mating strategy & that a lot of the times the Alpha Fvcks doesn't get the same level of validation or emotional investment or the longevity that weaker men might; it doesn't account for the fact that there are some absolutely amazing women with fvcked up emotional paradigms that will flat out reject a man they can't manipulate, even if, for a while, you have the time of your life with her; it doesn't account for the fact that you can meet absolutely amazing women with healthy emotional paradigms & still lose sexual attraction for her. None of this is to say you shouldn't learn from your mistakes or take feedback & emotional inventory when a girl rejects you--You should always be optimizing your own sexual strategy & looking for areas you can improve--but at the same time you can't take it personally & your feedback will be more accurate the more girls you experience. At this point, I know when I meet a girl how it's going to end & usually how long I'll be able to stay on the field--but that took a huge amount of volume to recognize patterns & realize that no situation is particularly unique.

 

[resilient]

@fastlife, thank you for the methodological reply.

I've done option two to death...

I'm currently on the option one path. I've gained 20 or so pounds of muscle in these last four months and I'm now noticing consistent IOIs from women with boyfriends and husbands. I'm not used to this kind of attention tbh. It feels like uncharted water...

I would like to aim for the third option path. However, as you mentioned, running into these type of women are rare and most likely the "loyal" ones are already committed in an LTR.

The one destiny I feel I have control over more or less is improving my SMV. Personality, looks, and finances. The first two are looking solid and finances will most likely be another 2-3 years before seeing the fruition of the hard work in a career transition.

 

[Serenity]

In my opinion, people who display emotional or physical vulnerability coming from a place of courage instead of sympathy or acceptance are the strongest.

Both the motivations come from mindsets which are poles apart.

Though I agree, investing slowly is good advice so as to not overwhelm the other person.

People who aren't afraid to get hurt physically or emotionally are the ones who realise their wounds will heal.

As they say, life will hit us harder than anyone, it's our choice to stay down or keep moving forward.

Seems like you understand now, our job here is done. What you state here is very different from your first post in this thread. It's a lot stronger to feel and handle it than to run away from your feelings. You can't really escape your feelings anyways, they're inside you after all.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

I'll let you in on a little secret--A significant portion of women, despite their involuntary arousal in the presence of male strength, will never be able to submit to it on an emotional level. They might fvck you; but they will only stay emotionally invested in weak(er) men where they can maintain a semblance of control (even as they lose sexual arousal for that same man and possibly cheat on him with a man who's stronger). Insecurity, Low Self-Esteem, an ideology of feminine independence & strength, Cluster-B Traits, weak or non-existent father figures (that they were never able to trust) are characteristic of these women; and, unfortunately, the current social climate has made these conditions predominant in the female population.

So, really, you have two choices of how you choose to play your hand (and a third, less available choice):

1. Maintain your strength & agency over the direction of your own life & accept that you will only ever be a short-term player in most women's dualistic mating strategy. Pros: Maintaining freedom & self-respect; protecting time investment; high desire sex. Cons: Lack of stability & consistency; women you might care about will only sporadically hit you up for sex after the initial sexual honeymoon; you (probably) have to be comfortable fvcking girls in a committed relationship; people will try to shame you.
2. Give up your frame (after having enough to get the girl in bed in the first place) & let her betaize you. Pros: Consistent sexual access w/ a girl you like; less effort expended to maintain your other options; high levels of social validation from your/her peers. Cons: Dealing with drama & increasing levels of disrespect; decreased sexual arousal; higher demands on your time & emotional energy; eventual infidelity or a breakup where you're heavily emotionally invested & have let your other options & skills to generate more options atrophy.
3. Pursue Option 1 until you meet a girl who is secure enough to submit to your frame. These girls are super rare and you'll lose sexual access (eventually) to some hotties & girls with sharp intellects or domestic inclinations or charm or any other characteristics you might find desirable in the opposite sex. Pros: Ideal combination of Stability & High Desire Sex; low drama; chance to build a complementary partnership (though you'll have to maintain your frame & these girls aren't tolerant of weakness). Cons: Loss of variety without the drama to keep you emotionally invested (though some of these girls aren't totally opposed to the idea that you're sleeping with other girls); not able to relax your frame the way you might in Option 2; these girls are super rare; might seem a little boring & you might be the one who loses sexual interest in her.

The bottom line is that you can't take these things personally--though loss of sexual access to a girl you like really sucks & it's easy to get caught up in the 'what ifs'--What if I had done X instead of Y? What if her parents had treated her better? Etc. Etc. The fact is that you're in an emotional double bind in a lot of these situations & the only way to 'win' is to figure out your priorities & stick to them with knowledge of how it ends.

There's an interesting paradox in this community & others like it that goes something to the effect that, You have to be a strong man of abundance & to never tolerate disrespect & to be the prize, with the covert contract that a ("Quality") girl will never leave a man like that & If you lose the girl, it was because you weren't strong enough or abundant enough (since, really, she's the prize--because whoever fvcks the hottest girls or can get their "Dream Girls" to love them wins)--or you chose wrong since she just wasn't a "Quality Girl." But so much of that is just idealistic bullsh1t--trying to win old prizes from a new emotional paradigm where those prizes (since they were only illusions in the first place) don't even exist.

It doesn't account for the fact that girls are operating a Dualistic mating strategy & that a lot of the times the Alpha Fvcks doesn't get the same level of validation or emotional investment or the longevity that weaker men might; it doesn't account for the fact that there are some absolutely amazing women with fvcked up emotional paradigms that will flat out reject a man they can't manipulate, even if, for a while, you have the time of your life with her; it doesn't account for the fact that you can meet absolutely amazing women with healthy emotional paradigms & still lose sexual attraction for her. None of this is to say you shouldn't learn from your mistakes or take feedback & emotional inventory when a girl rejects you--You should always be optimizing your own sexual strategy & looking for areas you can improve--but at the same time you can't take it personally & your feedback will be more accurate the more girls you experience. At this point, I know when I meet a girl how it's going to end & usually how long I'll be able to stay on the field--but that took a huge amount of volume to recognize patterns & realize that no situation is particularly unique.

I see what you're saying fastlife, but the problem is that you are making it too cut and dry, basically saying that if you are alpha women will leave because they cannot control you and if you're beta they'll leave because you're too weak. While this is true, there's still some more dynamics that need to be taken into consideration that can allow you to keep a woman regardless of her mental state. You have to know when to behave 'alpha', when to behave 'beta', and when to go somewhere completely neutral/in between. Each girl differs in the amount of each type of behavior she needs and when she needs it. The hard part is figuring it out with congruency to your personality. What I mean is, when you do choose to be strong or weak in a specific situation, it needs to feel like it actually IS the way you'd behave in any normal non-sexual situations. Women will still eye you even when you don't notice it, or when they think you don't. It's during these moments that they are trying to see how you REALLY are. This is when they'll decide whether you're just playing games with her or if the way you act is genuine. If she believes it is genuine, then she is much more likely to emotionally invest in you like the man in option number 2. Why? Because she knows that everyone guards their heart pretty well, and if you are seemingly 100% genuine with her in your actions and words and body language, then she will feel like you've got nothing to hide, that she can actually trust you, and that you also may have some sort of emotional investment in her or that she CAN get you to emotionally invest in her. That last point means that she believes even if currently doesn't have control over you that later on it's possible that she can.

Now of course, you don't have to actually let her take control over you. But you just make her think that she is getting close. The more unstable the woman is, the harder it will be. But it is still possible nonetheless. Each situation you deal with her in sets the stage up for what she sees you as. Be strong and she will be attracted to you yet realize she can't control you. Be weak and she will love the control but lose attraction. Her loss of attraction doesn't happen suddenly though and most of it is dependent on your body language and mannerisms as well as how you say things in response to these 'sh!t tests'. What you actually say will only matter in the sense of giving her comfort that she is getting close. If what you say differs too much from what your body language and what your tone of voice is saying though, then she'll be onto you and think you're lying.

Anyway, I can't explain the second part well enough without writing a novel, but I just wanted to point our to you that it isn't one or the other. You can change being strong or weak depending on the situation and where you what position you want her to see you at.

 

[Serenity]

I'll let you in on a little secret--A significant portion of women, despite their involuntary arousal in the presence of male strength, will never be able to submit to it on an emotional level. They might fvck you; but they will only stay emotionally invested in weak(er) men where they can maintain a semblance of control (even as they lose sexual arousal for that same man and possibly cheat on him with a man who's stronger). Insecurity, Low Self-Esteem, an ideology of feminine independence & strength, Cluster-B Traits, weak or non-existent father figures (that they were never able to trust) are characteristic of these women; and, unfortunately, the current social climate has made these conditions predominant in the female population.

So, really, you have two choices of how you choose to play your hand (and a third, less available choice):

1. Maintain your strength & agency over the direction of your own life & accept that you will only ever be a short-term player in most women's dualistic mating strategy. Pros: Maintaining freedom & self-respect; protecting time investment; high desire sex. Cons: Lack of stability & consistency; women you might care about will only sporadically hit you up for sex after the initial sexual honeymoon; you (probably) have to be comfortable fvcking girls in a committed relationship; people will try to shame you.
2. Give up your frame (after having enough to get the girl in bed in the first place) & let her betaize you. Pros: Consistent sexual access w/ a girl you like; less effort expended to maintain your other options; high levels of social validation from your/her peers. Cons: Dealing with drama & increasing levels of disrespect; decreased sexual arousal; higher demands on your time & emotional energy; eventual infidelity or a breakup where you're heavily emotionally invested & have let your other options & skills to generate more options atrophy.
3. Pursue Option 1 until you meet a girl who is secure enough to submit to your frame. These girls are super rare and you'll lose sexual access (eventually) to some hotties & girls with sharp intellects or domestic inclinations or charm or any other characteristics you might find desirable in the opposite sex. Pros: Ideal combination of Stability & High Desire Sex; low drama; chance to build a complementary partnership (though you'll have to maintain your frame & these girls aren't tolerant of weakness). Cons: Loss of variety without the drama to keep you emotionally invested (though some of these girls aren't totally opposed to the idea that you're sleeping with other girls); not able to relax your frame the way you might in Option 2; these girls are super rare; might seem a little boring & you might be the one who loses sexual interest in her.

The bottom line is that you can't take these things personally--though loss of sexual access to a girl you like really sucks & it's easy to get caught up in the 'what ifs'--What if I had done X instead of Y? What if her parents had treated her better? Etc. Etc. The fact is that you're in an emotional double bind in a lot of these situations & the only way to 'win' is to figure out your priorities & stick to them with knowledge of how it ends.

There's an interesting paradox in this community & others like it that goes something to the effect that, You have to be a strong man of abundance & to never tolerate disrespect & to be the prize, with the covert contract that a ("Quality") girl will never leave a man like that & If you lose the girl, it was because you weren't strong enough or abundant enough (since, really, she's the prize--because whoever fvcks the hottest girls or can get their "Dream Girls" to love them wins)--or you chose wrong since she just wasn't a "Quality Girl." But so much of that is just idealistic bullsh1t--trying to win old prizes from a new emotional paradigm where those prizes (since they were only illusions in the first place) don't even exist.

It doesn't account for the fact that girls are operating a Dualistic mating strategy & that a lot of the times the Alpha Fvcks doesn't get the same level of validation or emotional investment or the longevity that weaker men might; it doesn't account for the fact that there are some absolutely amazing women with fvcked up emotional paradigms that will flat out reject a man they can't manipulate, even if, for a while, you have the time of your life with her; it doesn't account for the fact that you can meet absolutely amazing women with healthy emotional paradigms & still lose sexual attraction for her. None of this is to say you shouldn't learn from your mistakes or take feedback & emotional inventory when a girl rejects you--You should always be optimizing your own sexual strategy & looking for areas you can improve--but at the same time you can't take it personally & your feedback will be more accurate the more girls you experience. At this point, I know when I meet a girl how it's going to end & usually how long I'll be able to stay on the field--but that took a huge amount of volume to recognize patterns & realize that no situation is particularly unique.

Dualism... Reality is far too complex to be reduced to 2 options. You don't have to choose a side and permanently stick to it, you can go above it to achieve an even greater control. Nothing limits you from playing different roles at different times, except your own idea about being forced to choose. This is exactly why being without ego is such an advantage, it leaves you with all options available at all times. A man who identifies himself as alpha will not act like a beta because he clings to his idea of being alpha, that's his ego. It's a disadvantage, because it excludes options that might help gain what he wants.

Let's have a look at the options you list:

1. It will be a short-term play because such a guy will always do as he wants. In reality everyone has a will, if a woman never gets it her way then the guy has essentially become a worthless burden in her life. She might have tolerated it in the hopes the guy would soften up, but ultimately left because she doesn't want to be a slave.
2. If a guy completely surrenders his frame, the woman will feel like she has all the responsibility. It's stressful and frustrating to have all the responsibility, it drains their energy having to drag a useless guy with them through life. Again the man becomes a burden in her life, they let us know by disrespecting the man in the hopes he'll step up. This ends because it's easier for a woman to take care of themselves than to take care of themselves and a grown up baby.
3. This is a lazy option which is highly unlikely to work out (you pointed it out as rare). This is the case where you happen to stumble upon a woman who tolerates your flaws. It is pure luck and thus it's the passive option, there's little a man can do to control this. They might stumble upon that woman tomorrow or maybe never, it's a gamble that I have played unsuccessfully for many years in the past. Just waiting around and doing nothing to get what I want, until I woke up one day and found this forum.

I reject all of the 3 options you listed. I don't have to always have it my way, but I won't let a woman always have it her way either. I won't wait potentially forever in the hopes I come across a woman who will tolerate all my flaws and stick around.
Option 1 and 2 are basically the same flaw manifesting in two different ways. Both guys lack responsibility, they don't do their part to make a lasting relationship work. The guy in option 1 does whatever he wants and the guy in option 2 does the wrong things, neither of them do the right things. Sometimes we must have strength and other times we do best to release control.

You are right that option 1 doesn't achieve a long lasting relationship, you are also right that option 2 doesn't achieve it either. Option 3 is ridiculous. A good relationship is give and take, that's option 1 and 2 combined. It's easy to forget time when discussing such philosophical matters, so many things seem like paradoxes. Time is the key to resolve those paradoxes. You can't choose option 1 and 2 simultaneously, that is of course a paradox. What you can do is alternate, so in a big picture sense you choose both, but only one at the time. When option 1 stops working you choose option 2 and vice versa. As you say, women leave the option 2 man for an option 1 man and the other way around.

When she starts becoming bored and losing her appetite for sex you then become the exciting and fuckable option 1 man. When she starts becoming insecure about your love for her then soften up again and become the option 2 man. This is probably what @ImTheDoubleGreatest! is talking about, choosing how to act to best navigate your circumstances.

Getting a long lasting relationship to work takes either luck as you've mentioned or it takes some effort and cleverness. Both the man and the woman can win on this. She gets the best of both worlds and you get a woman who doesn't have a reason to cheat, never wants to leave and passionately fucks you until your last days.

Quit being static, you can't play the same role in all situations. Adapt and act dynamically to the situation you're in, see more options than 2 and choose the path that benefits most and harms the fewest.

 

[darksprezzatura]

Dualism... Reality is far too complex to be reduced to 2 options. You don't have to choose a side and permanently stick to it, you can go above it to achieve an even greater control. Nothing limits you from playing different roles at different times, except your own idea about being forced to choose. This is exactly why being without ego is such an advantage, it leaves you with all options available at all times. A man who identifies himself as alpha will not act like a beta because he clings to his idea of being alpha, that's his ego. It's a disadvantage, because it excludes options that might help gain what he wants.

Let's have a look at the options you list:

1. It will be a short-term play because such a guy will always do as he wants. In reality everyone has a will, if a woman never gets it her way then the guy has essentially become a worthless burden in her life. She might have tolerated it in the hopes the guy would soften up, but ultimately left because she doesn't want to be a slave.
2. If a guy completely surrenders his frame, the woman will feel like she has all the responsibility. It's stressful and frustrating to have all the responsibility, it drains their energy having to drag a useless guy with them through life. Again the man becomes a burden in her life, they let us know by disrespecting the man in the hopes he'll step up. This ends because it's easier for a woman to take care of themselves than to take care of themselves and a grown up baby.
3. This is a lazy option which is highly unlikely to work out (you pointed it out as rare). This is the case where you happen to stumble upon a woman who tolerates your flaws. It is pure luck and thus it's the passive option, there's little a man can do to control this. They might stumble upon that woman tomorrow or maybe never, it's a gamble that I have played unsuccessfully for many years in the past. Just waiting around and doing nothing to get what I want, until I woke up one day and found this forum.

I reject all of the 3 options you listed. I don't have to always have it my way, but I won't let a woman always have it her way either. I won't wait potentially forever in the hopes I come across a woman who will tolerate all my flaws and stick around.
Option 1 and 2 are basically the same flaw manifesting in two different ways. Both guys lack responsibility, they don't do their part to make a lasting relationship work. The guy in option 1 does whatever he wants and the guy in option 2 does the wrong things, neither of them do the right things. Sometimes we must have strength and other times we do best to release control.

You are right that option 1 doesn't achieve a long lasting relationship, you are also right that option 2 doesn't achieve it either. Option 3 is ridiculous. A good relationship is give and take, that's option 1 and 2 combined. It's easy to forget time when discussing such philosophical matters, so many things seem like paradoxes. Time is the key to resolve those paradoxes. You can't choose option 1 and 2 simultaneously, that is of course a paradox. What you can do is alternate, so in a big picture sense you choose both, but only one at the time. When option 1 stops working you choose option 2 and vice versa. As you say, women leave the option 2 man for an option 1 man and the other way around.

When she starts becoming bored and losing her appetite for sex you then become the exciting and fuckable option 1 man. When she starts becoming insecure about your love for her then soften up again and become the option 2 man. This is probably what @ImTheDoubleGreatest! is talking about, choosing how to act to best navigate your circumstances.

Getting a long lasting relationship to work takes either luck as you've mentioned or it takes some effort and cleverness. Both the man and the woman can win on this. She gets the best of both worlds and you get a woman who doesn't have a reason to cheat, never wants to leave and passionately fucks you until your last days.

Quit being static, you can't play the same role in all situations. Adapt and act dynamically to the situation you're in, see more options than 2 and choose the path that benefits most and harms the fewest.

That's a great post from the context of a monogamous LTR. Alpha with beta tendencies is the way to go.

What you state here is very different from your first post in this thread.

Not exactly, I said that to protect our heart, its essential that we stay emotionally distant from a woman whilst making her want to invest herself more.

That still holds true, more so in the beginning.

Taking @sazc 's, your's and the other posters' insights into account, it's a smart idea to invest slowly instead of staying emotionally distant throughout.

Make women earn our investment.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

You have to know when to behave 'alpha', when to behave 'beta', and when to go somewhere completely neutral/in between. Each girl differs in the amount of each type of behavior she needs and when she needs it. The hard part is figuring it out with congruency to your personality. What I mean is, when you do choose to be strong or weak in a specific situation, it needs to feel like it actually IS the way you'd behave in any normal non-sexual situations. Women will still eye you even when you don't notice it, or when they think you don't. It's during these moments that they are trying to see how you REALLY are. This is when they'll decide whether you're just playing games with her or if the way you act is genuine. If she believes it is genuine, then she is much more likely to emotionally invest in you like the man in option number 2. Why? Because she knows that everyone guards their heart pretty well, and if you are seemingly 100% genuine with her in your actions and words and body language, then she will feel like you've got nothing to hide, that she can actually trust you, and that you also may have some sort of emotional investment in her or that she CAN get you to emotionally invest in her. That last point means that she believes even if currently doesn't have control over you that later on it's possible that she can.

Now of course, you don't have to actually let her take control over you. But you just make her think that she is getting close. The more unstable the woman is, the harder it will be. But it is still possible nonetheless. Each situation you deal with her in sets the stage up for what she sees you as. Be strong and she will be attracted to you yet realize she can't control you. Be weak and she will love the control but lose attraction. Her loss of attraction doesn't happen suddenly though and most of it is dependent on your body language and mannerisms as well as how you say things in response to these 'sh!t tests'. What you actually say will only matter in the sense of giving her comfort that she is getting close. If what you say differs too much from what your body language and what your tone of voice is saying though, then she'll be onto you and think you're lying.

Anyway, I can't explain the second part well enough without writing a novel, but I just wanted to point our to you that it isn't one or the other. You can change being strong or weak depending on the situation and where you what position you want her to see you at.

Rather than 'being all things to all women', you want the mindset of 'a time and place for everything'. In the first, your behavior reacts like a chameleon to suit the environment in general; in the second, you intelligently adapt your policy to particular circumstances. The first is passive and reactive... adapting to 'each girl'. The second is proactive - you will not adapt to each girl, but have an active policy of finding and rewarding the right kind of girl suitable to you.

So you may have a definite red-pill policy with women in the initial stages.... even perhaps with some elements of MGTOW policy; you meet a lot of women, but you are not needy and screen heavily. With the development of intimacy with a worthy/ suitable woman, you start to shift to a policy, which dare I say, looks more blue-pill from a red-pill perspective.

The point is that there is a practical process, based on who you are as a person, not a static ideology.... or some background mindset projecting what you think this particular woman in front of you wants.

 

[Serenity]

Not exactly, I said that to protect our heart, its essential that we stay emotionally distant from a woman whilst making her want to invest herself more.

I disagree, but only slightly. Someone has to have the courage to go first. In some cases the woman will invest first to get things started, but you could lose out on great women by holding back in fear. Are you bold enough to go first or are women bolder than you?

Taking @sazc 's, your's and the other posters' insights into account, it's a smart idea to invest slowly instead of staying emotionally distant throughout.

This is the way. By investing some instead of nothing you move things along. Who goes first doesn't matter, only that someone does. I invest first, I do take a risk, but I don't invest more than I am prepared to lose. With my own relationship I risked being let down, but I was always prepared for it. I invested progressively more as our relationship became more clear and defined, because the chance of losing it decreased and the bet became safer.

Make women earn our investment.

Yes, but don't forget you must also earn their investment. It goes both ways.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

Dualism... Reality is far too complex to be reduced to 2 options. You don't have to choose a side and permanently stick to it, you can go above it to achieve an even greater control. Nothing limits you from playing different roles at different times, except your own idea about being forced to choose. This is exactly why being without ego is such an advantage, it leaves you with all options available at all times. A man who identifies himself as alpha will not act like a beta because he clings to his idea of being alpha, that's his ego. It's a disadvantage, because it excludes options that might help gain what he wants.

Let's have a look at the options you list:

1. It will be a short-term play because such a guy will always do as he wants. In reality everyone has a will, if a woman never gets it her way then the guy has essentially become a worthless burden in her life. She might have tolerated it in the hopes the guy would soften up, but ultimately left because she doesn't want to be a slave.
2. If a guy completely surrenders his frame, the woman will feel like she has all the responsibility. It's stressful and frustrating to have all the responsibility, it drains their energy having to drag a useless guy with them through life. Again the man becomes a burden in her life, they let us know by disrespecting the man in the hopes he'll step up. This ends because it's easier for a woman to take care of themselves than to take care of themselves and a grown up baby.
3. This is a lazy option which is highly unlikely to work out (you pointed it out as rare). This is the case where you happen to stumble upon a woman who tolerates your flaws. It is pure luck and thus it's the passive option, there's little a man can do to control this. They might stumble upon that woman tomorrow or maybe never, it's a gamble that I have played unsuccessfully for many years in the past. Just waiting around and doing nothing to get what I want, until I woke up one day and found this forum.

I reject all of the 3 options you listed. I don't have to always have it my way, but I won't let a woman always have it her way either. I won't wait potentially forever in the hopes I come across a woman who will tolerate all my flaws and stick around.
Option 1 and 2 are basically the same flaw manifesting in two different ways. Both guys lack responsibility, they don't do their part to make a lasting relationship work. The guy in option 1 does whatever he wants and the guy in option 2 does the wrong things, neither of them do the right things. Sometimes we must have strength and other times we do best to release control.

You are right that option 1 doesn't achieve a long lasting relationship, you are also right that option 2 doesn't achieve it either. Option 3 is ridiculous. A good relationship is give and take, that's option 1 and 2 combined. It's easy to forget time when discussing such philosophical matters, so many things seem like paradoxes. Time is the key to resolve those paradoxes. You can't choose option 1 and 2 simultaneously, that is of course a paradox. What you can do is alternate, so in a big picture sense you choose both, but only one at the time. When option 1 stops working you choose option 2 and vice versa. As you say, women leave the option 2 man for an option 1 man and the other way around.

When she starts becoming bored and losing her appetite for sex you then become the exciting and fuckable option 1 man. When she starts becoming insecure about your love for her then soften up again and become the option 2 man. This is probably what @ImTheDoubleGreatest! is talking about, choosing how to act to best navigate your circumstances.

Getting a long lasting relationship to work takes either luck as you've mentioned or it takes some effort and cleverness. Both the man and the woman can win on this. She gets the best of both worlds and you get a woman who doesn't have a reason to cheat, never wants to leave and passionately fucks you until your last days.

Quit being static, you can't play the same role in all situations. Adapt and act dynamically to the situation you're in, see more options than 2 and choose the path that benefits most and harms the fewest.

Pretty much. There's also a little more to it. Here's an example: say you and a gal are getting into a petty argument, nothing big but just ball-busting and jokes and such. Well say she points out something very clever about anything. Well, the alpha in you would say to shut her down and make fun of it. The beta in you would say that it is a good point and concede a little (you don't even have to concede, just at least acknowledge it) that it's a good point. If you were previously being a stubborn fool and not willing to concede despite it being a good point, the woman will group you into the 'player' category and just say that your one of THOSE guys. If you concede/acknowledge though, she actually will gain more respect for you and see you as STRONGER than the man who was kept trying to shut her down. Why? Because acknowledgment shows that you have the strength to back down and are not weakened by your ego. It also means that you are still sure enough and confident enough in yourself that you can admit fault and not develop any hard feelings over it. What is seemingly 'beta' may actually be 'alpha' in disguise.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

The point is that there is a practical process, based on who you are as a person, not a static ideology.... or some background mindset projecting what you think this particular woman in front of you wants.

Yes, precisely. This is exactly why I said it needs to be congruent with who you are, or else the woman will detect that you are playing games with her. And if she believes this, you already lost.

 

[bigneil]

Can we hold on to our hearts when we fall asleep with our dream girl cradling us? Don't they steal our heart in our sleep?

Love is not a choice. It's ok to fall but you have to be strong enough to walk away on a moment's notice.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

The point is that there is a practical process, based on who you are as a person, not a static ideology.... or some background mindset projecting what you think this particular woman in front of you wants.

Which raises the point, who are you as a person - what is your religion, your culture, your philosophy, your politics... in short, your beliefs?

The problem with the millennials today is that there tends to be a void where some kind of substance should be. They just get lost in the crowd, and the cloud, always passive and reactive. And this problem comes to the fore especially with women, for here we must be our natural selves.... not our artificially created social self/ ego... and here our own belief/ self-determination is crucial.

 

[fastlife]

@ImTheDoubleGreatest! & @Grewd

I don‘t think we‘re in any fundamental disagreement--if you pay attention to my post, there are a lot of modifiers qualifying the type of woman @resilient & I are discussing; and, if you go out enough, the type of woman you‘re most likely to encounter in America in 2017. Especially if she‘s hot and is operating from a place of total abundance. She doesn‘t have to choose between the nice stable guy & the exciting cad; she doesn‘t expect to have to make that choice; unless she grew up with a male model embodying both, she doesn‘t even believe this kind of blend exists.

For most girls, you‘re either going to be one or the other. Obviously, you have to calibrate; but for that give & take to happen (like @Grewd mentions)the girl has to fall predominantly in Option 3 to even believe that give & take is possible or desirable. The girls I mention--and I even outline the qualities those girls possess that contribute to that dynamic--will have their nice, stable, obedient boyfriend & they will also have guys like me on the side. Very little room inbetween. & if you think females are inclined to a high level of fidelity, fieldtest Option 1 for a little while .

Rollo Tomassi puts it in better detail than I could (highly, highly recommend his newest book btw):

So the archetype of the ‘Good’ guy is offered up as some sort of livable, compromised ideal. If men could aspire to embody the best of the Alpha and temper that with what they define themselves as the best of the Beta, well then he’d be the ‘perfect’ catch for any woman of course.

The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.

It comes back to the Just Get It principle for women – any guy who needs to make a concerned effort to become what he expects women will want from him to be ‘the perfect guy’ doesn’t get it. They want Mr. Perfect because that is who he already is.

I mentioned above that there really is no parallel for this in women and I’m sure the Madonna / ***** dichotomy will be mentioned in the comments later, but allow me to point out that there is no concerted parallel social effort on the part of women in which women prompt each other to become a ‘Good Girl’ in order to satisfy the ideals of men. If anything a hostile opposite resistance to this is most true.

Women neither expect nor want a ‘Good Guy’ because he’s not believable, and his genuineness is always doubtable. That may sound jaded, but throw away any idea of being a ‘Good Guy’ balance of Alpha and Beta, because the Beta side of ‘good’ is so reinforced and common in men that it’s become the default template for women’s perception of you.

Also, at a certain point, you reach a level where overly calibrating to keep any individual female around long term becomes less & less viable--since it’s less effort just to meet a new one & the girls won’t trust you’re calibration since they know you have other options. I mean, you can do it if you really want to, but how valuable is your time and effort to you? How much do you value living honestly & authentically? How much do you value your freedom? How much are you willing to give up? How important is fidelity to you? What are your goals? Will this female aid you in achieving those goals or will she serve as a distraction? What qualities would you want the mother of your kids to have? How much drama are you willing to tolerate?

I’ve answered those questions for myself--I’d encourage every member here to put in the legwork until they have enough experience to answer those questions for themselves before they start worrying about how to keep that one special girl around.

 

[Serenity]

@fastlife Have you even had a long term relationship?

 

[fastlife]

@Grewd Let’s not get into ad hominem and virtue signalling (plenty of that going around SS these days).

But yes, as far as hard monogamy I had a 2 year relationship with a girl who most likely had BPD (which is how I ended up here in the first place). However, she was a great girlfriend 95% of the time and overall the experience (minus the breakup when she tried to ruin my life lol) was a net positive--and the ending really forced me to confront a lot of the issues wrt childhood trauma I’d been suppressing my whole life (avoidance, codependence, compensatory narcissism, etc.).

In the 2 years since then, I’ve had two relationships lasting around half a year, both open on my end. The first one ended very poorly (since I didn’t really know what I was doing or how to hold frame or communicate effectively); though we’re on good terms now & have enjoyed each others’ company in the time since. The second one ended on great terms--fantastic girl & will probably make a great wife for the right guy some day--though I’ve had to distance myself from her since I felt like I was impeding her potential to move on with guys who can offer her something more longterm & I just kinda lost sexual interest.

I have several fantastic female friendships that have spanned years & years. I’m the platonic third wheel friend to multiple couples in all different stages of monogamy. I’ve had ONSs, flings, I’ve spun plates, I’ve been the other guy--at this point I’m pretty comfortable at effectively managing all those situations. Each methodology--or mating strategy, if you will--has its pros & cons depending on what you’re looking for and what your/her life circumstances look like. But I’m not interested in arguing ego-investments or any of that. I think you bring up a lot of good points a lot of the time--but you also have attachments that I don’t.

 

[Serenity]

@fastlife No ad hominem attacks here. I don't mind a guy choosing to not do LTR and instead lay around with all the women he can. But I do mind such a guy giving advice on how to keep a LTR good for the long term. Your longest relationship is no longer than my current, 2 years isn't a very long time.

I didn't ask that question to attack your past or your preferred way of living. I asked because I won't take advice from someone who hasn't succeeded in going where I want to go in life. I want to know from people who have been successful at what I seek success in, if your longest relationship is 2 years you can't speak from experience.

I don't want to offend you, because you do have lots of great advice. I just don't think LTR is your area of expertise.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

@ImTheDoubleGreatest! & @Grewd

I don‘t think we‘re in any fundamental disagreement--if you pay attention to my post, there are a lot of modifiers qualifying the type of woman @resilient & I are discussing; and, if you go out enough, the type of woman you‘re most likely to encounter in America in 2017. Especially if she‘s hot and is operating from a place of total abundance. She doesn‘t have to choose between the nice stable guy & the exciting cad; she doesn‘t expect to have to make that choice; unless she grew up with a male model embodying both, she doesn‘t even believe this kind of blend exists.

For most girls, you‘re either going to be one or the other. Obviously, you have to calibrate; but for that give & take to happen (like @Grewd mentions)the girl has to fall predominantly in Option 3 to even believe that give & take is possible or desirable. The girls I mention--and I even outline the qualities those girls possess that contribute to that dynamic--will have their nice, stable, obedient boyfriend & they will also have guys like me on the side. Very little room inbetween. & if you think females are inclined to a high level of fidelity, fieldtest Option 1 for a little while .

Rollo Tomassi puts it in better detail than I could (highly, highly recommend his newest book btw):



Also, at a certain point, you reach a level where overly calibrating to keep any individual female around long term becomes less & less viable--since it’s less effort just to meet a new one & the girls won’t trust you’re calibration since they know you have other options. I mean, you can do it if you really want to, but how valuable is your time and effort to you? How much do you value living honestly & authentically? How much do you value your freedom? How much are you willing to give up? How important is fidelity to you? What are your goals? Will this female aid you in achieving those goals or will she serve as a distraction? What qualities would you want the mother of your kids to have? How much drama are you willing to tolerate?

I’ve answered those questions for myself--I’d encourage every member here to put in the legwork until they have enough experience to answer those questions for themselves before they start worrying about how to keep that one special girl around.

That's the thing that I have trouble explaining. You shouldn't have to change yourself for the woman. It should just be you doing whatever you want to do, within reason. You don't really calibrate anything to change yourself, rather you just change what version of yourself you are. This way, you are always authentic and women will think of you as 'different' (as cliche as that sounds). Why a woman can be attracted to this guy more so than your Option 1 man is because this guy is still strong enough to be able to back down when he has to which is another form of strength almost no one has, and he is more genuine than the the 'alpha'. That option 1 man is controlled by his ego and thus has no self-control, which is seen as weak. Pook talked about this. Why do women say that they want the nice guy when they always fall for the jerk? It's because they wanted the jerks they were extremely attracted to to have those nice guy qualities, but without doing it at the expense of of their strength. Yes, most women who are fvcked in the head will basically want you to be one or the other because they don't think that the in between exists. But if you display the greatest strength of a man, one stronger than that of your option 1 guy, she will fall for you. This guy doesn't TRY to be that option 1 guy either. He just is. I can't explain it very well but I hope this makes at least some sense.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

The guy should be strong in himself. It is the woman that should change/ adapt to the guy. That is the essence of LTR. The great chain of being.

To be strong, it helps to be rooted in something greater than yourself.... and that is not the woman.

Egoism can not be the basis of an LTR.