My theory of AFCism being a disease isn't washing with the masses

[WestCoaster]

Rather obvious it wasn't going to wash here, AFCism is defended a lot, even on this site:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123854

Not all of these shooters I mentioned were mentally ill, actually probably only one of them was: the latest one. The murder for hire guy wasn't mentally ill, the two brothers who drove over to do a revenge killing for their AFC brother were not mentally ill.

I'm not saying AFCism was the entire cause, but it's roots run deep. As long as boys (not men) don't take this seriously, bad things will happen. I figured people would shrug off my theory.

 

[Wyldfire]

Actually...they were most likely suffering from something that wasn't diagnosed. Mentally healthy people just don't go out and shoot people like that. Perhaps you should look at the possibility that what you consider "AFC" is a symptom of a bigger problem...not properly progressing through the developmental stages of life. Look up Erik Erikson and his developmental stages. Each and every AFC has not mastered their previous developmental stages and it holds them up from being able to develop intimate relationships later in life. AFCs are not psychologically healthy people.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I had posted a thread a few weeks ago regarding the tendency for long time AFC developing a sense of self-righteousness in their percieved "success" with women once their methods (i.e. AFC, nice guy, ONEitis mentality) pay off with a woman showing an actual IL and intimacy. In that same vein I've just been coming across some studies on denial and coping techniques people use to rationalize undeniable aspects of their own conditions.

One common frustration that DJs and upcoming DJs express is how dificult it is to open an AFCs eyes to why he's not hooking up and the flaws in peoples ego-investments and internalizations. As I'm fond of saying, it's dirty work unplugging our friends from the Matrix, and this is made all the more difficult when a person is in a catagorical state of denial.

People resort to denial when recognizing that the truth would destroy something they hold dear. In the case of a cheating partner, denial lets you avoid acknowledging evidence of your own humiliation. Short of catching a spouse in bed with your best friend, evidence of infidelity is usually ambiguous. It's motivated skepticism. You're more skeptical of things you don't want to believe and demand a higher level of proof. Denial is unconscious, or it wouldn't work: if you know you're closing your eyes to the truth, some part of you knows what the truth is and denial can't perform its protective function.

One thing we all struggle to protect is a positive self-image. The more important the aspect of your self-image that's challenged by the truth, the more likely you are to go into denial. If you have a strong sense of self-worth and competence your self-image can take hits but remain largely intact; if you're beset by self-doubt (a hallmark of self-righteous AFC thinking), however, any acknowledgment of failure can be devastating and any admission of error painful to the point of being unthinkable. Self-justification and denial arise from the dissonance between believing you're competent, and making a mistake, which clashes with that image. Solution: deny the mistake.

Therefore we see AFCs tenaciously cling to a moralistic sense of purpose in their methods which is only reinforced by popular culture in our media, our music, eHarmony, our religion, etc.

 

[joekerr31]

the whole phenomena of people who go on shooting sprees isn't very complicated. its the same thing that drives people to murder, rape and commit violent crimes.

it goes something like this.

1) life is hard and unfair for 98% of the world, whether you live in the west or anywhere else.
2) a lot of that hardship comes from the idiocy of other people and the overall lack of value we place on human life - and im not talking about people killing others, im talking about how we all treat each other in general on a daily basis.

so within this context we all have five choices....

1) rise above it and try to find the positives in life at every turn
2) assiimilate with it and become one of the idiots (yes, you guys who stop at a red light and blast your stereo so that the mother and kid in the car beside you get scared are who im talking about)
3) rage against it (hello mr. sniper, mr. terrorist, mr. criminal, etc.)
4) drop out of it (hello mr. suicide)
5) go crazy

why do some people choose #3 over the others? who can say. a combination of personal history, personality, mental illness, whatever.

that said, i do beleive the general fabric of how we are living, how we are treating each other, is breeding more and more of these folks.

all we can hope is that more people will choose #1, make a better world and that #2-5 will decrease as a result.

 

[WestCoaster]

Agree Wyld, I'm not saying AFCism was the entire root of the problem, there's all kinds of pathological stuff going on ... the murder for hire was someone who had no regard for life, most likely had narcissisitic personality disorder; the latest shooter had substance abuse and depression issues, etc.

However, a HUGE part of the problem is each of these boys had women problems and their inability to solve them caused a disbelief that a relationship with a woman was the answer ... or in the case of the murder-for-hire (for $100), the AFC was too chickensh-t to do a normal breakup, so he had her offed.

I still contend that AFCism is a lot worse than most people think ... but then again, most people will throw a mental health blanket over it and call it a day. Out of the three murders in the last year, only one was committed by a seriously mentally unstable person.

 

[Wyldfire]

WestCoaster...check out this link I'm going to post. It lists Erikson's 8 stages and explains them. If you look at them it becomes quite apparent that the typical behavior patterns of an AFC indicate quite clearly that they did not successfully master previous stages. When a person doesn't master them it comes back to haunt them later...and impedes further emotional/psychological growth as a person. I think you'll find it very interesting.

http://www.learningplaceonline.com/stages/organize/Erikson.htm

 

[Interceptor]

This is an interesting instruction series by David Deangelo that may help some guys understand more clearly what may be happening to males in the 21st century or at least the way DD sees it.
Anyway, it's just something for us to consider too. I don't agree with every single point he makes, but there is something interesting in his view.

It's called "On Being a Man":


http://doubleyourdating.com/0/OnBeingAMan/index.asp?s=0&

 

[WestCoaster]

Wyld, yes, Erikson's stages are very good, I've studied them. He's on the money. I think you could say your typical or advanced AFC has slow development in at least one of those stages and probably more. Being an AFC wimp isn't in the DSM-IV ... perhaps it should be.

 

[Wyldfire]

Wyld, yes, Erikson's stages are very good, I've studied them. He's on the money. I think you could say your typical or advanced AFC has slow development in at least one of those stages and probably more. Being an AFC wimp isn't in the DSM-IV ... perhaps it should be.

Well...it's not just men who fails to master one or more of the developmental stages...so it would be kinda pointless to put AFCism in the DSM-IV, lol. I think the problem is that parents screw up so much early on (usually not intentionally) that it stunts a child's emotional growth. The guys who find themselves here should take a look at those stages and re-learn them and fix what went wrong. However, to do that would require taking personal responsibility and that is a concept many here fail to embrace.

 

[Interceptor]

Here's a quick excerpt if you don't feel like reading the whole page:


David Deangelo:


By virtue of being born relatively recently, in modern cultures, most of us men were basically not offered the process of “becoming a man” the way it evolved over literally MILLIONS of years.

We missed the initiations, the challenges, and the EARNING of our manhood.

These days, humans are living longer, but we’re maturing slower… and instead of growing up and living an enjoyable, mature life… many men end up staying in the “adolescent” phase of their lives for DECADES.

This "stunted growth" process leaves us with that empty feeling of anxiety and frustration that you might call the “extended childhood syndrome”.

We grew… but as a result… many of us never really “grew up”.

Even worse, we’ve recently been going through a cultural phenomenon called “the men’s movement” that, while doing a lot of good, has obscured the reality that we are, fundamentally, MEN.

And because of this, many of us failed to really become MEN… and develop the inherent natural ability to attract women that is part of BEING A MAN.

I call this phenomenon: “The Mysterious Missing Manhood.”

When developed, your Manhood is like your own “internal compass” that guides you to success in your interactions with women.

A man who is MISSING his Manhood is like a ship trying to sail the ocean with no guidance systems whatsoever.

In other words, he is bound for disaster.

A woman can usually sense instantly if a man is “missing” his Manhood…

Even if you are able to “fool her” with lines and techniques… without the right internal guidance… you are bound to “slip up” and make a mistake that reveals the TRUTH.

This is why these little things DO count so much with women…

When you call one time too many… or miss your chance to make a move, a woman doesn’t say to herself, “He calls too much…” or “he’s not confident enough…” No…

What she does do is get the gut feeling that you aren’t a REAL MAN.

And when that happens, the possibility for attraction or a relationship is instantly not an option in her mind… and she can’t control it.

An inner switch flips inside of her, and it creates an invisible barrier… and even though that process and the barrier are invisible, they are still very real… and very obvious to her.

Without this issue handled, the only way to get attention from women is becoming a master of PRETENDING to be someone… and using techniques to cover up your inability to be who you are.

But as I’m sure you know… eventually, this deeper problem WILL cause you to screw things up.

 

[joekerr31]

i blame charleton heston and the NRA. that guys a douche.

oh and i blame the past 5 american presidents for letting the USA slide in to the gutter on an overall cultural basis.

oh and i blame people in general for not making the world a better place for us all to live in.

but then again, im from canada, what do i know

 

[Wyldfire]

i blame charleton heston and the NRA. that guys a douche.

oh and i blame the past 5 american presidents for letting the USA slide in to the gutter on an overall cultural basis.

oh and i blame people in general for not making the world a better place for us all to live in.

but then again, im from canada, what do i know

You're Candian? I'm so sorry...but it could be worse...you could be British! hahahahaha (j/k) :crackup:

 

[Hitman10000]

I had posted a thread a few weeks ago regarding the tendency for long time AFC developing a sense of self-righteousness in their percieved "success" with women once their methods (i.e. AFC, nice guy, ONEitis mentality) pay off with a woman showing an actual IL and intimacy. In that same vein I've just been coming across some studies on denial and coping techniques people use to rationalize undeniable aspects of their own conditions.

One common frustration that DJs and upcoming DJs express is how dificult it is to open an AFCs eyes to why he's not hooking up and the flaws in peoples ego-investments and internalizations. As I'm fond of saying, it's dirty work unplugging our friends from the Matrix, and this is made all the more difficult when a person is in a catagorical state of denial.

People resort to denial when recognizing that the truth would destroy something they hold dear. In the case of a cheating partner, denial lets you avoid acknowledging evidence of your own humiliation. Short of catching a spouse in bed with your best friend, evidence of infidelity is usually ambiguous. It's motivated skepticism. You're more skeptical of things you don't want to believe and demand a higher level of proof. Denial is unconscious, or it wouldn't work: if you know you're closing your eyes to the truth, some part of you knows what the truth is and denial can't perform its protective function.

One thing we all struggle to protect is a positive self-image. The more important the aspect of your self-image that's challenged by the truth, the more likely you are to go into denial. If you have a strong sense of self-worth and competence your self-image can take hits but remain largely intact; if you're beset by self-doubt (a hallmark of self-righteous AFC thinking), however, any acknowledgment of failure can be devastating and any admission of error painful to the point of being unthinkable. Self-justification and denial arise from the dissonance between believing you're competent, and making a mistake, which clashes with that image. Solution: deny the mistake.

Therefore we see AFCs tenaciously cling to a moralistic sense of purpose in their methods which is only reinforced by popular culture in our media, our music, eHarmony, our religion, etc.

Nice post, I used to be that person. Back in the early days if I were dating someone, I'd go OOO AAA, I will be the NUMBER ONE in her life. So I would be there for her constantly and give her gifts, pay for everything. Assuming that I will be "rewarded" with the fantasy of a stable relationship or marriage. Needless to say after a couple girlfriends it became obvious that some girls have relationships out of selfish reasons to use others. Nowadays it's a lot different, I see having a girlfriend as a possibility of having a long term partner who will go along with my personality. I think most men who look at themselves deep enough on what they want in life will find a more compatible female companion which complements their own personality. I used to be a coward putting out money, nowadays I tell the lady: Alright, you're paying for this now instead of me mindlessly opening my wallet.

 

[Hitman10000]

And personally, I think AFCism does run deep. But it's not within ourselves... it's from OUR PARENTS. Your parents don't know what's best for you, they make you do things that's best for them. I used to listen to my mom all the time or do the bidding for her, now I "box" in her requests or disagree with her openly and go about my ways.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Troops,


Mankind is in a fallen state.

His mind is clouded by ignorance of who he really is:

A SPIRITUAL being having a "human" experience.

As long as mankind believes the lie that he is NO DIFFERENT from animals, he will continue to act as THEY act----in the lowest, most self-serving, and most viscious of ways.

As long as mankind embraces the lie that there is NEVER EVER such a thing as "right and wrong" in ANY circumstance, and as long as he subscribes to the short-sighted, socially, culturally, and spiritually CORROSIVE code of "situational ethics" that he has been clinging to, there will be NO END to the expansion of the Lawless Wasteland that we see stretching out before us.

Mankind's lack of knowledge of, or their ongoing disbelief in, or their continuing unwillingness to embrace the DIVINE nature of their origin is the root cause of all "AFCism".

As much talk that goes on here about men being "THE PRIZE", there is very little said here with respect to the "prizeability" of OTHER people in general (not JUST women...).

Recognizing and respecting the divinity in YOU and OTHER people is the most all-encompassingly POTENT solution to the rampant problem of AFCism.

Number One - By recognizing and respecting your OWN divinity, you will become consistently more aware of the line of respect between you and other people. And as a result, you will defend that line by NOT allowing yourself to be devalued, disrespected, and marginalized by ANYONE.

And Number Two - Because you ARE aware of a certain level of divine worth and value in EVERY person, you will now also be both able AND WILLING to consistently stop YOURSELF from devaluing, disrespecting, and marginalizing OTHER people without JUST CAUSE.

You see, in a sense, we are ALL somewhat "connected". What we do affects other people. Premeditated consideration of the effects of our actions upon the lives of other people is a God given attribute-----as is the CHOICE to act in positive or negative ways towards other people.

One of the biggest, and seemingly most contradictory, spiritual truths is that we are always both alone AND altogether AT ONCE.

Lastly consider THIS as evidence that we are alone, yet connected. The word use to signify ONE person is "INDIVIDUAL".

But let's break it down, shall we?

IN--DI---VI---DUAL

The prefix "IN" means "not". While the body of the word contains the letters "DI", which means "to cut, or to separate". And "VI" is a prefix that we derive the terms "video or visual" from. It can be defined as "to see".

So in essence, the term we use to signify a sole person ACTUALLY is derived from letter combinations that define something totally different from what was originally intended.

In the strictest etymological sense, an "individual' is actually LITERALLY defined as someone who can SEE that he is NOT DIVIDED, OR SEPARATED from other people.

Once again, even in our choice of words, the spotlight of IRONY shines and exposes the pride-filled, ego-inflated faultiness that much of merely "human" wisdom is made of.

To think that one life is NOT effected by, or attached to, or CONSEQUENCED by another is delusional. And usually people who choose to NOT make value judgements are those with something to hide---and usually that thing is a DUPLICITOUS nature.

In their efforts to avoid "labeling" negatively impacting behavior, they only succeed in revealing their own thinly veiled desire to engage in the SAME behavior----they just don't want to be called on it when they do. But the ironic thing about those who run from the concept of adjudging things right and wrong is that they turn right around and LABEL those who disagree with their mindsets "AFCs, Wussies, Captain-Save-a-Ho, Alphas, Betas, Bytches, Slutts, etc. lol)

You see labeling and making value judgements are fine, as long as they're ones that THEY agree with. lol Truly, a greater example of hypocrasy can not be found.And this is actually just as bad as fullblown AFCism. It is the polar opposite of AFCism, but just as deadly----in that it TOO can lead to sociopathic behavior.

But pardon me Troops, for I digress...

Finally, I'll leave you with this quote from John Donne, who said it best in his classic poem For Whom the Bell Tolls:

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece
of the continent, a part of the main."

Unless mankind EMBRACES this fact, rampant AFCism and all the detrimental effects of it will continue to overwhelm the world around us.

On a person by person basis...the choice is YOURS.


Peace...one day.

 

[WestCoaster]

Great post Victory

Very insightful Victory. Part of personal ownership is understanding there are people and a world around you. The sniper in my hometown said he was going to kill himself, but take some people with him. (Not sure why he wasn't locked up longer.) Not advocating suicide, but why didn't he just off only himself? Well, one, he wanted some kind of twisted glory on his way out, even if it meant killing a cop and a 62-year old church sexton. He had no sense of the world or people outside his f-ed up, AFC life. Yeah, he took his wife out, too.

Obviously he was mentally disturbed, it wasn't total AFCism that caused this mindless rampage. But I can't help but think cultural/societal influences are weighing in heavily on many of these shootings. People in the 1940's were not grabbing guns and spraying bullets schools.

The thing the philosophies of DJism provided me is not one woman, or one job, or one anything is the end-all. I'm currently looking at advancing my career -- I've been at the same job four years -- I want to get a new job and live in a new town. The past two weeks I've received a ton of rejection letters and the anxiety is creeping in. It's an awful feeling. When one has numerous job offers or options, one feels better about themselves. Right now career-wise, I feel desparate. It's a horrible feeling.

Magnify my experience by 1,000 regarding the immature AFC's approach towards women. Each women is a prize and a goal and if they don't get that goal, anxiety, depression, neediness increases. Really AFCism is a serious symptom and of course it couldn't be put into a book of mental disorders, but it's almost there.

One of the best quotes on this board, I believe by Rollo T. is: "A man is only as good as his options."

This goes for almost everything in life.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

By virtue of being born relatively recently, in modern cultures, most of us men were basically not offered the process of “becoming a man” the way it evolved over literally MILLIONS of years.

We missed the initiations, the challenges, and the EARNING of our manhood.

These days, humans are living longer, but we’re maturing slower… and instead of growing up and living an enjoyable, mature life… many men end up staying in the “adolescent” phase of their lives for DECADES.

This "stunted growth" process leaves us with that empty feeling of anxiety and frustration that you might call the “extended childhood syndrome”.

We grew… but as a result… many of us never really “grew up”.

Not a huge fan of D' Angelo, but this is gold. I can't begin to tell you how many guys I've counseled who have never grown up and embraced being a man; I'm talking 50+ y.o. men. It's been so driven into our collective consciousness that men ought to "get in touch with their feminine side" for the past 50 years that we have forgotten, or are in the process of forgetting, what manhood means. For far too long masculinity has been distorted and ridiculed to the point that we've come to believe that our testosterone is poison. All the while women wonder why they can't find a guy who embodies someone they want to fukk AND they want to live with. It's either the Bad Boy or the Nice Guy and both have become parodies of masculinity.

I speak with my staff of designers, two of which are 25 & 26 y.o. females, young and attractive (easily HB8s) and both describe the same problems they have. They have difficulty finding a man who knows how to be a Man. Scared to approach, scared to close, lack confidence - and just as D-Angelo describes, they turn off to them, or they "settle" for a guy who'll do, while they keep their options open for other men who might fit the bill. This is generation AFC and precious few Men really understand what's happened and those who have are marginalized.

 

[Latinoman]

Not a huge fan of D' Angelo, but this is gold. I can't begin to tell you how many guys I've counseled who have never grown up and embraced being a man; I'm talking 50+ y.o. men. It's been so driven into our collective consciousness that men ought to "get in touch with their feminine side" for the past 50 years that we have forgotten, or are in the process of forgetting, what manhood means. For far too long masculinity has been distorted and ridiculed to the point that we've come to believe that our testosterone is poison. All the while women wonder why they can't find a guy who embodies someone they want to fukk AND they want to live with. It's either the Bad Boy or the Nice Guy and both have become parodies of masculinity.

I speak with my staff of designers, two of which are 25 & 26 y.o. females, young and attractive (easily HB8s) and both describe the same problems they have. They have difficulty finding a man who knows how to be a Man. Scared to approach, scared to close, lack confidence - and just as D-Angelo describes, they turn off to them, or they "settle" for a guy who'll do, while they keep their options open for other men who might fit the bill. This is generation AFC and precious few Men really understand what's happened and those who have are marginalized.

Great point.

 

[WestCoaster]

Not in response to the banter here, but Bill Maher said on Leno if the Va. Tech shooter had gotten laid, this wouldn't have happened. At first I laughed my a$$ off ... then I realized he was right.

However, the follow-up is if the Va. Tech shooter got laid and then broke up, the victims would've doubled. Trust me folks, AFCism is more serious than you think.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Westcoaster,



The point you made about how people back in the forties and such DIDN'T go out and do these mass killings and/or suicides is a GOOD one. After thinking about it a minute, I believe that the spread of AFCism is the result of both men being taught WRONG, or worse------Growing up in a GUIDANCE vacuum.

Without the absence of true manhood being modeled, we HERE all know that sociey and the mass media will rush in to teach little boys how to be "men" THEIR way. And we also know that that pathway leads to internal MASCULINE "death" and the birth of Frankenstein monster that we refer to as the FEMINIZED MALE.

But one other log we can throw on the fire of AFCism conflagration is THIS:

TECHNOLOGY.

Yes, I believe that technology is also responsible for the WEAKNESS that we see in men today. Modern scientific advances has made many of us at least a LITTLE lazy in various areas of our lives.

Think about it.

How many men do you know personally could survive having their Television (especially SportsCenter), their computers, their air-conditioning, and their woman-supply cut off for a month WITHOUT going through some SERIOUS, almost drug-like withdrawals????

I look back at some of the things my Grandfather, my father, and even my GRANDMOTHER had to endure throughout their life and I sometimes marvel at it. And I have to admit that I, and many men I know (and people in general) are just SOFT as hell by comparison.

Shyt that would have me focused in grim determination would be the same shyt that Granddaddy would probably not spend 2 minutes thinking about. He'd probably just do the dam thang and get on with it. lol

Yes, the things that would rattle most men today, the things that would have them running to the psychiatrist, medical doctor, relationship counselors, or the GUN SHOP, would probably be something that my Grandparents generation would just "take in stride".

There is a Biblical quote that seems to intimate that everyone has an assigned, generation-specific appointment when they come into this world. I think the quote is:

"They were born for such a time as THIS..."

Whatever the exact quote was, and whether people believe it or not, the spirit behind it got me to thinking:

Even if it is true that only THIS generation is equipped to handle THIS generations unique problems and challenges, I STILL think that it's a dam shame that many of us don't see the inherent HONOR in striving to also be BETTER than our predecesors were as well.

Hell, I said "better", when the sad truth is that I would even be encouraged if I saw more people (men AND women) striving just to be AS STRONG as our Grandparents were in certain areas.

BOTTOM LINE:

A life that is TOO soft betrays every man in the end, because ill-defined masculinity (a marker for AFCism) will be his EVENTUAL reward. So if any of us want to not only survive, but THRIVE-------we have to learn lessons from our predecessors and work to rebuild ourselves internally into STERNER stuff.

To choose NOT to is to open the door for the entropy that IS AFCism. And left unchecked, it WILL take over what's left of our lives. We see snapshots of it in the examples you wrote about in your initial post...



March on.