My Equation needs Fixing

[Interceptor]

With regards to Romantic interactions with women...


It is important for men to be "in tune" with women.
I call it "dialing in the Radio frequency".


If there is at least one thing women dislike is men who are arrogantly Selfish.

Think about sexuality.
Will a woman really want to be with a man sexually if he's only there to please himself?
Not likely.


It is important to reflect on your interactions with women, and understand if you are coming across correctly, in the manner that you feel "fits" you.

You must develop the Skill to relate to women.
Not "identify" with them...but to RELATE to them.

If you are seeking a fulfilling LTR, you must be "in tune" with women.
While maintaining your Center, your Masculine Polarity.
You see how we keep returning to ourr base masculinity? At it's core?




Satisfying a woman sexually, is great. Doing it from a "giving" place is great. There's nothingnwrong about genuinely wanting to satisfy your woman.


Likewise, providing emotional intimacy.

There's nothing wrong or unManly to sit there and listen to her. Share with her. And perhaps heal her. Comfort her, and be her support.
It's called being Intimate.


But you do this for a woman who has EARNED it.

You are no fool. You don't give away the farm to the first girl who smiles at you.

Your sensitivity, romance, affection, attention, time and love come at a price.


You don't just throw it away to anyone.


Give and Take.

That's called Mature Love.
Not being needy, or clingy, or needing validation anymore.

Again, there's nothing wrong with being loving and affectionate.
It is NOT unManly to do so with the woman you Love.
But remember, we can only genuinely GIVE Love, when we are FULL of Love OurSELVES.

Never be someone's fool.

If you can do all this, will it really matter, ultimately, if you drive a BMW and wear Armani?
Do you see now just how YOU have the POWER?
You have OPTIONS?
You don't have to settle?
Do you see why if you have developed the four traits, you don't have to bend over backward to appease her? She will eventually realize that you ARE VAUEABLE?
(if she doesn't.....NEXT.)

 

[ketostix]

This is interesting because the Seduction Community is in love with the idea of creating "perceived " value over creating real value. I guess that if all you want is a series of ONS then creating "perceived" value will do just fine.
I know that some here will argue that all value is perceived but lets not do that here.
Sure your social proof is rocketing if your G/f sees that other women check you out BUT would that motivate her to treat you will admiration and respect ? Or would she most likely just keep a closer eye on you in the company of other women to protect her investment.?

Well I would consider a clever DHV story you made up about how you have women to be an example of perceived value, now if it's true then it is real value. And I would consider girls hitting on you as real value.

I would say that if your girl saw other women hitting on you she would admire and respect you, and the fact she keeps a closer eye on you isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is proof that she values you.

 

[ketostix]

This is great stuff, guys.

Most insights ring true with me, and I actually think I'm on the right track with consolidating my own value to myself, with my own life, which is where I was when I attracted my last LTR.

Part of it is feeling impatient- great dates where everything seems to go right,
women literally hanging with me for hours and hours and me thinking afterwards: "I in!!" and then..... calls not returned, lukewarm responses,
flakiness.... to the point where I'm thinking, wait, that that great date really happen? Was I imagining things that she was all over me, following me around,
saying yes to whatever I wanted to do....

Maybe I just need to keep doing what I'm doing, shedding AFC, and the tide will turn but I'm wanting more tangible results, more sex, not especially looking for LTR or gf just having coming out of that- just want to have sustained results...

Want to say more, will join in later...

It sounds like you have comfort, but not enough attraction and value.

 

[jophil28]

- great dates where everything seems to go right,
women literally hanging with me for hours and hours and me thinking afterwards: "I in!!" and then..... calls not returned, lukewarm responses,
flakiness.... to the point where I'm thinking, wait, that that great date really happen? Was I imagining things that she was all over me, following me around,
saying yes to whatever I wanted to do....

...

Remember this - women are also consummate actresses and will often act " on fire" on the first date when they are really just "warming up" . I do not know why they do this - they just do.

Possibly, the answer to your dilemma with them flaking and not returning calls lies in the above quote. Note how you say " Im in !.." This strongly suggest that you believe that you have passed the "audition" - HER audition of you ! in other words you unconsciously guage whether you are accepted by HER !!THis is indeed AFC thinking. YOu are placing HER as the prize and her acceptance and approval of you as the objective ...

Read SRT8UP's posts. IN spite of the protests that he is sure to make to the contrary, he oftentimes has the same mindset and also seems to wind up with "flakey behavior" from woman.. I may be wrong here BUT he does seem to find himself in similar situations a LOT.

I think that women easily pick up on this thinking because if we are seeking her approval , it follows that we will act in ways that we believe will PLEASE her. We will perhaps supplicate and fawn a little and compliment her insincerely and ask permission and so on.
I believe that most women "on a date" are ALWAYS assessing you as a potential LTR.
They quickly need to evaluate your character traits - your strengths and weaknesses and measure your VALUE to her. THis is why they commonly ask you about your career. They are testing your ability to provide ( RT calls it "provisioning ") plus your dedication to work,and your resilience and endurance is also revealed in your answer. Telling her that you dropped out in your freshman year to "find yourself " is hardly impressive to anyone much less a woman who is looking for a relationship..

Getting back to my point - at our age women have been battlehardened and are very skilled at sorting out the quiters from the keepers.They WILL turn every date into an interview of you IF YOU LET THEM.

MY guidelines are - Never give them your vital info until after you have bedded them and they are in YOUR frame. PLay them at their own game (play in the emotional) and create situations in which SHE is having to please you. It is stunning to observe how easy it is to flip the script and have them in the role of interviewee.

 

[acewhole]

I agree that setting the interviewer frame is ideal. Not only does maintaining mystery have its seductive benefits but it also lessens my fears of materialism and her only looking for a "provisioner".

As much as I try to hold out, I can only flip the script with a ****y comment so many times. If she persists to ask questions about your job or past relationships, eventually the ****yness can be perceived as rudeness. My last line of defense is to run lateral plays -- legitimate answers that border on ambiguity and vagueness. What other methods can one employ?

I like how this topic came up today. I had a good buzz last night while I chatted up an HB8 that works at a big club downtown. I steered the first half of the conversation as I pleased without giving any vitals. Then, I let got lazy and stopped talking. This gave her the chance to turn it into the interview with me in the uncomfortable chair. This more than reversed any prior progress and I bailed with my tail between my legs. She gave me the digits and tried to pin down the time frame for next contact but walked away feeling like I lost the battle. I know that I'm still terrible at recognizing when I'm losing my footing and should bail to regroup..

 

[Interceptor]

It is very important to reciprocate every interview question from a woman, with one of your own.(if she has value to you. But you need to first assess what you think is Valueable to you)
If she is trying to get you to qualify for her, and you see some value in her, then do the same. Don't simply sit there answering her questions with nothing of your own to qualify her!


Here's a hint:

Little "boys" don't really know what they want.
Ask yourself if you want to come off as an unopinionated little boy.

If she thinks you're a little boy, guess what comes next?



Ever think about what women mean when they say "Well...what do you want?!"
If you do NOT KNOW what YOU WANT, you cannot properly ASESS HER.
This give her leeway. This leaves her free to interview YOU, and set her frame so SHE GETS what SHE wants.
Since obviously YOU DON"T KNOW, because you're NOT ASKING her about wether or not she HAS the Qualifications you are looking for.


KNOW WHAT YOU WANT.

Tests are merely her seeking out information and testing for congruency.

 

[eyedogg]

Awesome info from you Interceptor! Much appreciated!

What's the deal with all you Florida Fella's (Karma, Francsico) having so much game and experience? I love it! I stayed in Ft. Lauderdale on business for a month about 2 yrs ago, and it is a party town. Seems like the oppurtunity to interact with women were ever where!

Keep it coming Interceptor!

 

[STR8UP]

Remember this - women are also consummate actresses and will often act " on fire" on the first date when they are really just "warming up" . I do not know why they do this - they just do.

This would be a rare occurance. You can fake words but it's not nearly as easy to fake non-verbal cues, and anyone who knows anything about women will tell you that body language, etc.

If you sense high interest when high interest isn't there you are misreading the non verbal.

Possibly, the answer to your dilemma with them flaking and not returning calls lies in the above quote. Note how you say " Im in !.." This strongly suggest that you believe that you have passed the "audition" - HER audition of you ! in other words you unconsciously guage whether you are accepted by HER !!THis is indeed AFC thinking. YOu are placing HER as the prize and her acceptance and approval of you as the objective ...

Read SRT8UP's posts. IN spite of the protests that he is sure to make to the contrary, he oftentimes has the same mindset and also seems to wind up with "flakey behavior" from woman.. I may be wrong here BUT he does seem to find himself in similar situations a LOT.

You can try to flip the script all you want, but at the end of the day a woman DOES either accept you or reject you. Nature itself dictates this.

Does this mean that one cannot circumvent the normal process of a woman "qualifying" you? Yes and no.

You can make her qualify herself to you, yes, but she is always judging you as well.

How many breakups are the result of the woman pulling the plug? Most of them.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the other thread you were talking about building safety and comfort with a woman. Here the discussion is more about building value. The mere implication that one would have to take action in order to attract a woman says to me that you agree with what I am saying. You are never 100% the prize, and neither is she.

It's a two way street. I don't put women above me. I don't feel honored for a woman to share her company with me. I'm as critical of them as they are of me. Maybe even more so, but I'm a man, and as such my attraction mechanism isn't fickle. I don't get rid of a woman because of reasons that make sense only to me.

Do I get my share of flakey women? I doubt if percentage wise I get more than most other guys. You just get to hear me pick it apart a little more than most people.

The latest one may or may not be a dead deal. If it is I SERIOUSLY doubt that it was because I looked at her as "the prize", cause I didn't at all. If anything with the high interest that I sensed caused me to see it the other way. And I'm confident in saying that she has "fairly high" IL up until the weekend. Maybe a better looking guy asked her out. Maybe the AW c0ck blocked me. Who knows. But I am fairly certain that it was there and that I didn't necessarily "fukk up" to cause it to go down.

MY guidelines are - Never give them your vital info until after you have bedded them and they are in YOUR frame. PLay them at their own game (play in the emotional) and create situations in which SHE is having to please you. It is stunning to observe how easy it is to flip the script and have them in the role of interviewee.

I agree with this, but you have to acknowledge the fact that no matter how solid she is in your frame, you never have 100% control. Women always reserve the right to change their minds on a moments notice.

 

[Ever onward]

Agreed but this is very tricky.

How does one project value?

Now on a first date, with an AFC understanding, this will work against him.
An AFC might misconstrue value as saying "I am financially well off, I own properties" which can be an instant turnoff to a QUALITY GIRL. Great for a gold digger!

Ok so what other value can we project. Here's an example of what I use. Pure DHV.

Girl: So when was your last relationship?
ME: What is this an interview?
Girl: LOL just making conversation
ME: OK last interview question I will allow. It was 3 months ago
Girl: So what happened , how long did it last?
ME: It lasted a couple years, she got ****y, so I left her
Girl: Why did she get ****y?
ME: In the beginning , she was fine. She gets this modeling job at FORD. It gets to her head, and she wanted to start argueing.
Girl: And?
ME: I dont argue so I left.
Girl: So that's it, you leave? (sh*t test)
ME: Yes ( ****y response to her sh*t test, she expected justification or explanantion)

Looks like someone has been studying Mystery Method! Your story is even complete with DHV spikes such as talking about how you used to date a model and how you wouldn't take no sh!t from her.

Listen guys. If you have to Demonstrate value then you have no value. Someone mentioned Mick Jagger in one of the earlier examples. I'm almost positive that he doesn't go around trying to demonstrate his value to the ladies, he just has it. He knows it and they know it.

So how does one attain value?

Value yourself. If you don't value yourself first and foremost no one else will either. Ask yourself how you would like others to treat you and respect you then start showing yourself that respect.

BTW 2 hours after this convo, she spread her legs.

Again with the DHVs! Listen man, we know you're cool.

 

[Juando]

At this point of the thread most of it seems as obvious as the nose on my face.

-COMFORT/ATTRACTION/VALUE all three critically linked.

I do need to beef up ATTRACTION and VALUE.

Interceptor is so right about knowing what you want.
Field experience is what helps me more than anything to clarify what I want,
I was clueless a few months ago.

My inner drooler was tested with two HBs today, one beautiful the other stunning.

The beauty demonstrated to me, by avoidance, that I should have terminally nexted her a while back. I did next her before but it was a weak next.

The stunner is a new opportunity to practice in the face of the kind of woman
that has in the past made me, my resolve, and my perspective melt.
She said yes to my desire to spend time together, hang out, get to know each other. I may need your help and support, more of it, not to deal with her but with my tendency to prize the wrong party.

The wisdom here is sinking in, for sure.
Let's see how I do with it as I go out into battle.

 

[guru1000]

Looks like someone has been studying Mystery Method! Your story is even complete with DHV spikes such as talking about how you used to date a model and how you wouldn't take no sh!t from her.

Listen guys. If you have to Demonstrate value then you have no value. Someone mentioned Mick Jagger in one of the earlier examples. I'm almost positive that he doesn't go around trying to demonstrate his value to the ladies, he just has it. He knows it and they know it.

So how does one attain value?

Value yourself. If you don't value yourself first and foremost no one else will either. Ask yourself how you would like others to treat you and respect you then start showing yourself that respect.



Again with the DHVs! Listen man, we know you're cool.

Thanks for the compliment. I never followed Mystery, but if he's as good as me, he is good!. Yes, I demonstated DHV above. The reason why I do, is because I am. When you are, you will always demonstrate DHV. That's why most SUCCESSFUL MEN in my circle have a demeanor of "****INESS". Do they TRY to project DHV consciencely? No. It is natural. This is who they are.

You are correct in the sense that when you have Value, you DON'T TRY to project it, you just project it naturally.

Key Point: There is acting and Real Value. A woman will eventually know the difference. If one had HUGE PARADIGMS and is congruent with thyself, that is VALUE.

 

[jophil28]

I think that the equation is still crude at this stage. It needs fine tuning . As I said - it is a work in progress.
However, another factor occured to me today and that is the order in which you create the three factors .
My first thought is that ATTRACTION needs to be established first. THis brings the two players into each others company. As you are building ATTRACTION, your VALUE should be slowly revealed . Perhaps you could show vALUE by alternately talking about your LIFE and its facets and then ask her about her's. THis should consolidate the building of attraction which ,hopefully, will continue to increase in the background. Next comes COMFORT. Being cool but connected to her is key here. The demonstration of warmth and understanding of her LIFE script is vital too. I like to be a POWERFUL listener - eye contact with a strong focus on her stories all work for me. Keeping the convo light and humorous seems to work well too.

Anyone else have a thought on this?

 

[Juando]

I think that the equation is still crude at this stage. It needs fine tuning . As I said - it is a work in progress.
However, another factor occured to me today and that is the order in which you create the three factors .
My first thought is that ATTRACTION needs to be established first. THis brings the two players into each others company. As you are building ATTRACTION, your VALUE should be slowly revealed . Perhaps you could show vALUE by alternately talking about your LIFE and its facets and then ask her about her's. THis should consolidate the building of attraction which ,hopefully, will continue to increase in the background. Next comes COMFORT. Being cool but connected to her is key here. The demonstration of warmth and understanding of her LIFE script is vital too. I like to be a POWERFUL listener - eye contact with a strong focus on her stories all work for me. Keeping the convo light and humorous seems to work well too.

Anyone else have a thought on this?

You are father to the equation Jophil and of course your analysis makes sense. But-

What I'm seeing now is the value of looking at phases occurring simultaneously in the MAN.

Perhaps she takes it in, based on her subjectivity in the order you suggested,
but as the MAN why not have ALL channels open regardless of her receptivity?

Let her be blindsided as she wanders around inside your temple, bumping from one pillar to the next....

How lucky can one girl get??

 

[DavenJuan]

I think that the equation is still crude at this stage. It needs fine tuning . As I said - it is a work in progress.
However, another factor occured to me today and that is the order in which you create the three factors .
My first thought is that ATTRACTION needs to be established first. THis brings the two players into each others company. As you are building ATTRACTION, your VALUE should be slowly revealed . Perhaps you could show vALUE by alternately talking about your LIFE and its facets and then ask her about her's. THis should consolidate the building of attraction which ,hopefully, will continue to increase in the background. Next comes COMFORT. Being cool but connected to her is key here. The demonstration of warmth and understanding of her LIFE script is vital too. I like to be a POWERFUL listener - eye contact with a strong focus on her stories all work for me. Keeping the convo light and humorous seems to work well too.

Anyone else have a thought on this?

i think COMFORT is simply just being geniunly interested in this type of person. her values, her career, her beliefs. that in itself would bleed comfort.

what im realizing is that all THREE things are intertwined. I think that having COMFORT in turn increases ATTRACTION in some instances. As well as VALUE to some degree.

i dont know if ATTRACTION has to necessarly have to come first. What about the guy who isnt all that good looking. however is personality and charm, his geniune care for her leads her to feel COMFORT, and in turn is now ATTRACTED?

or the guy who is ugly and has lots of material wealth, very socially accepted and gets along with everyone. well then comes the VALUE and now the ATTRACTION.

very interesting subject.

 

[jophil28]

What I'm seeing now is the value of looking at phases occurring simultaneously in the MAN.

I am thinking that ATTRACTION is vital FIRST. THis stirs up her emotions and switches ON her brain chemicals . MOst of us here know how to create attaction.

Imagine that you see a great BMW softop just briefly in a lot as you are driving by. You screech to a halt , park, and then you walk in to the showroom and immediately sit in the leather seats while the salesman raves on about the airbags and the lumbar support and so on.
Would you sign up for that car on the basis of the COMFORT of the seats and how many airbags are deployed in a crash.? Probably not.
I would need to be strongly drawn to that BMW FIRST - the color , the style and shape, how I imagine it will feel out on the highway. THEN i would investigate it's VALUE to ME.- gas comsumption, running costs, acceleration and speed, depreciation for income tax deduction ...and so on.. Also a large part of its appeal is that it has a great social reputation ( BMW is desired by many ) so it has a PERCEIVED high value to begin with.
Then comes COMFORT and SAFETY...but the comfort and safety is irrelevant unless and until I was ATTRACTED to that auto in the first place.

Just me thinking out loud here.

 

[STR8UP]

I am thinking that ATTRACTION is vital FIRST. THis stirs up her emotions and switches ON her brain chemicals . MOst of us here know how to create attaction.

This is by far the BEST way, but not the only way.

I have had the best luck with women making a strong first impression. i posted about it in the past. If you have instant attraction it's SOOO much easier to go through the rest of the process.

If you start out with one of the other two it becomes an uphill climb.

If you start out with only comfort....that;s the worst. She feels comfortable with her brother, and I'm sure she isn't attracted to him.

If you start out with value you're kinda in between. She won't even PERCEIVE value in a person where there is no potential for attraction. Why would she? So if you show value you are ON THE WAY to attraction.

 

[Juando]

I am thinking that ATTRACTION is vital FIRST. THis stirs up her emotions and switches ON her brain chemicals . MOst of us here know how to create attaction.

Imagine that you see a great BMW softop just briefly in a lot as you are driving by. You screech to a halt , park, and then you walk in to the showroom and immediately sit in the leather seats while the salesman raves on about the airbags and the lumbar support and so on.
Would you sign up for that car on the basis of the COMFORT of the seats and how many airbags are deployed in a crash.? Probably not.
I would need to be strongly drawn to that BMW FIRST - the color , the style and shape, how I imagine it will feel out on the highway. THEN i would investigate it's VALUE to ME.- gas comsumption, running costs, acceleration and speed, depreciation for income tax deduction ...and so on.. Also a large part of its appeal is that it has a great social reputation ( BMW is desired by many ) so it has a PERCEIVED high value to begin with.
Then comes COMFORT and SAFETY...but the comfort and safety is irrelevant unless and until I was ATTRACTED to that auto in the first place.

Just me thinking out loud here.

Good visuals, Jophil.

I don't think we disagree- you make a compelling argument for describing the sequence of the chemical reaction that takes place.

My personal take on this dynamic now is to be aware of the sequence as you describe (it's a beautiful thing to witness and better yet experience) but more importantly for me to know that I'm ready.

And for me being ready means not having a weak link in the chain- to feel confident that I'm firing on all cylinders.

The image I have is that after the initial sequence "fires" to your description then the elements exist on a palate where they can be called on and mixed in a non-linear fashion as needed.

Say that there's a lull in the connection, that the connection needs to be fortified, juiced up. So you pull in the ATTRACTION from the background and put it to work, knowing that it was a powerful binding element originally, then go through the sequence again in whatever order, weaving the magic.

I like the idea of these elements existing in a toolbox, ready to be called on
when "repairs" are in order, or just to refresh the dynamic...

 

[jophil28]

Say that there's a lull in the connection, that the connection needs to be fortified, juiced up. So you pull in the ATTRACTION from the background and put it to work, knowing that it was a powerful binding element originally, then go through the sequence again in whatever order, weaving the magic.

I like the idea of these elements existing in a toolbox, ready to be called on
when "repairs" are in order, or just to refresh the dynamic...

NIce followup Juando.. A lull in the convo is easy to deal with . I do C and F with a LOT of humor OR I tell her a story - much like a bedtime story. Easy repair tactics...

 

[Juando]

Jophil, you got me laid last night.

I've described the equation to a couple of ladies, of the more
thoughtful variety. To my surprise, their interest is really piqued
and they have all sorts of questions and their own thoughts to pitch in.

So last night I brought it up again and the lady in question listened carefully as I explained that I think I might have a VALUE deficiency.

She jumped in and rebutted my admission with "no I don't really think so, no you don't ".

I didn't press after that but she brought it up again as I was driving to her place after being invited for a visit.:woo:

The next time she brought it up was as I was in her bed, some way straddling her- "no you definitely have VALUE" sez she.:cheer:

I really don't know if these discussions with women help clarify my doubts, but last night I was too busy to worry about that or anything else.

Thanks, Jophil, I owe you one;


Oh, and the other woman who was fascinated by the equation
(bright shiny object?) I'm workin' on her- keep yer fingers crossed....I'm going to do a little more "discussing" with her.

Hey, whatever works.

 

[jophil28]

Jophil, you got me laid last night.

I've described the equation to a couple of ladies, of the more
thoughtful variety. To my surprise, their interest is really piqued
and they have all sorts of questions and their own thoughts to pitch in.

So last night I brought it up again and the lady in question listened carefully as I explained that I think I might have a VALUE deficiency.

She jumped in and rebutted my admission with "no I don't really think so, no you don't ".

I didn't press after that but she brought it up again as I was driving to her place after being invited for a visit.:woo:

The next time she brought it up was as I was in her bed, some way straddling her- "no you definitely have VALUE" sez she.:cheer:

I really don't know if these discussions with women help clarify my doubts, but last night I was too busy to worry about that or anything else.

Thanks, Jophil, I owe you one;


Oh, and the other woman who was fascinated by the equation
(bright shiny object?) I'm workin' on her- keep yer fingers crossed....I'm going to do a little more "discussing" with her.

Hey, whatever works.

Hey Juando -you da man !
I am reading your post and what struck me was this - by talking to them like you did you put them in a COMFORTABLE place by sharing this " secret men's business" in the way that you did. This is HUGE for women.
I think what you have done is GENIUS stuff. Women cannot resist "soothing and smoothing " a troubled soul and so, when you expressed a tiny bit of doubt and vulnerability by talking about your VALUE deficit, is was assured that she would F**k you.- you had gotten all the way to COMFORT for her ( via closeness and trust) .
There is some curious psych at work here. IT seems to contradict the widespread belief that we need to be always confident, never express doubt or fears and always lead her strongly. In your case there is another factor at work which gave you the sexcess. Perhaps she wanted to value you by fvcking you??.
There is some other stuff in there about how women are drawn to manly men who occasionally have a soft and vulnerable moment BUT attraction needs to be established FIRST first for this to lead to the 'ole sacko...

NIce..