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Must read: The Skinny on Fats

Omen

Master Don Juan
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Throttle said:
okay, well the picture you're drawing is that the supplement industry is opposed to WAP. that suits me just fine. i'm not saying that i'm for anything the supplement industry is against, but in my mind it's a fair place to start.
It can go back and forth. I can tell you of supplement companies that are crooks, or some that do a crappy job, but with so many out there, it will happen.

Trust me, that's why I take so much time when I prepare what I do with my company to come. I want to be above the rest, not just with them, or below.

I take pride in what I do, want consumers to get the best they can, and at a fair price. Others just throw stuff in a tub and then charge $$$$$ and people buy it.

Its not easy trying to keep up, but hey, someone has to do it :)
 

spesmilitis

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Omen

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spesmilitis said:
I haven't read every link yet, but i'll point out that you are correct about it being unregulated, and you have to DO YOUR RESEARCH. Also there are labeling guidelines we have to follow as to WHAT goes on our label, so that is regulated, but NOT the ingredients.

Its also the same with prescription drugs. I'll bet there are more problems and deaths associated with drugs that are supposed to be approved, but we wont venture into that subject. I mean all we have to do is really listen to all the commercials for drugs.

The supplement industry is getting better and will continue to get better as the topic of discussion about what you talked about is going on at the moment and what to do to make things more strict.
 

Throttle

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my investigation of the weston a. price foundation & it's attack on the conventional wisdom that "saturated fats & cholesterol are bad and people should consume as little as possible" led me to the talk page of the wikipedia article on "saturated fat" (the article has serious NPOV problems), where I found this fascinating several paragraphs. the author is apparently anonymous.

-----

The scientific picture is unclear. Much of the early research into possible links between dietary fat consumption and cardiovascular disease involved young- and middle-aged American men. For this group, there is a positive corrleation between serum LDL levels and cardiovascular morbidity and mortality. For elderly men, the correlation is actually negative, i.e., those with lower LDL levels tend to have higher cardiovascular morbidity and mortality. For women, there is no correlation. In some studies outside the U.S., the correlations seen in American males don't hold up. Since nondietary factors such as stress can affect both serum cholesterol levels and susceptibility to cardiovascular disease, a cause-and-effect relationship between saturated fat consumption and disease outcomes isn't easily established.

The effect of saturated fat consumption on LDL cholesterol levels has been studied extensively, with mixed results. It seems that a rise in serum LDL can be reliably produced in some specific test subjects by feeding them increased amounts of specific saturated fatty acid sources (e.g., coconut oil, which is high in lauric and myristic acids). The broad picture points in the direction of a link, but when the numerous studies are evaluated comparatively, generalizations are hard to make.

Some observational evidence, most notably Willett's Nurses Health Study at Harvard, supports the theory that saturated fat is atherogenic, though it appears to be much less so than trans fat. Arriving at such conclusions requires adjusting for a number of lifestyle-related confounders such as smoking, exercise habits, and vegetable consumption, leaving the disease implication of trans fat quite clear-cut but that of saturated fat much less so.

No dietary intervention (feeding) trial has ever produced a decrease in cardiovascular disease outcomes through dietary reduction of saturated fat and, thereby, reduction of serum LDL levels. The Lyon trial, which compared an artificially-constructed Mediterranean-type diet (intervention group) against a lowfat diet (control group), is sometimes cited in this regard, as it called for, among other things, replacing butter with olive oil. The experiment was terminated early by its ethics committee due to much higher mortality in the control group than in the intervention group. Two factors make it incorrect to conclude that a reduction in saturated fat was responsible for the improvement in outcomes. First, average serum LDL levels remained virtually identical between the two groups throughout the course of the experiment. Second, due to culinary considerations, the intervention group was supplied free of charge with a specially-formulated margarine as an alternative to olive oil. The margarine was made with a low-erucic acid rapeseed oil (similar to canola oil) in an attempt to mimic olive oil's high content of monounsaturated fat. Some researchers believe that the experimental outcome may have been primarily the result of introducing a substantial source of the essential omega-3 fat alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), in which Western diets are typically deficient and in which rapeseed oil is rich.

The notion of ALA's importance was bolstered by a study published in October, 2006 in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology. It found that walnuts, a rich source of ALA, reduce the typical postprandial rise in inflammatory markers that normally follows consumption of a meal high in saturated fat. This suggests that saturated fat may be dangerous primarily when consumed in a diet deficient in ALA.

Cardiovascular events have been reduced in clinical studies of LDL-lowering statin drugs, but this is now widely considered to be at least in part due to these drugs' antiinflammatory properties. Notably, at least one study has produced favorable outcomes with a statin chemically modified to make it incapable of lowering LDL.

Finally, within the past three years or so, advanced imaging techniques have made it possible to directly study the growth of arterial lesions over time. While this mode of investigation is still in its infancy, one such study has already implicated polyunsaturates in the growth of arterial plaque and cleared saturates and monounsaturates.

In short, while it is true that saturated fat is widely characterized as "artery-clogging" by health authorities and in the popular press, the scientific picture is unresolved. If saturated fat is ultimately given a clean bill of health, this will be the most embarassing dietary advice reversal in the history of medicine, so it seems likely that a mountain of contradictory evidence will have to accumulate before the medical community budges.

...

posted by 83.95.117.36 13:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 

simon

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You'd probably enjoy Anthony Colpo's book The Great Cholesterol Con. It goes into the above in much greater depth.
 

mrRuckus

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Throttle, I think people try to narrow things down to one factor when it rarely is.

Omg sat fat. Omg cholesterol! Who do i run from? Who do i FEAR? Tell me, gubmint, tell me!!

I'm just making things up here, but it's just an example:

<FAKE THEORY id=mrRuckusFakeness>
Maybe if you eat a poo load of monounsaturated fat it's okay to eat a lot of saturated too.

But if you eat a lot of saturated and little to no other types that's when you get screwed, but of course people want a scape goat so they blame the saturated fat instead of the lack of a balancing factor (or factors).
</FAKE THEORY>

So we just get out our trumpets of moderation and sound like broken records.

I eat ~5 whole eggs a day and buy mostly 80/20 beef and if i'm making meatloaf out of it i don't rinse it. I also drink olive oil out of the bottle, scoop natural pb out of the jar with a tablespoon, and take 10-15g of fish oil a day. Not dead yet, and i have a blood pressure of 120/80 and an oddly low pulse for someone who isn't a runner, so i think my arteries are fine and dandy. Maybe i'm just special and the rest of you are genetic retards but i doubt it.


i sound stupid. i'm gonna shut up now. Wanna come to my 2000 post without ever saying anything productive party?
 

Throttle

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mrRuckus said:
Throttle, I think people try to narrow things down to one factor when it rarely is.

...

i sound stupid. i'm gonna shut up now. Wanna come to my 2000 post without ever saying anything productive party?
woot!!! I'm in!

but seriously, i think you're definitely on to something there. we want to know how to fix everything -- as long as it doesn't mean giving anything up or exercising more, when the sensible advice all along has been to do some of both.

and i totally agree with your first sentence, hell I just got done making the same argument to a bunch of wide eyed undergrads about war & peace -- we always want to reduce stuff down to monocausal explanations.

and it's worse with personal health, b/c fear of death and general laziness combine to produce incredible cognitive dissonance about how we live our lives.

we should have a similar party for me when i finally hit 2000..... won't be long at this rate.
 

Throttle

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my concern with the colpo thesis (granted, i haven't read it) is that he seems to be saying that sat fat & dietary cholesterol are not a problem at all -- which is also the word from the Price Foundation, whereas the essay above simply says that the jury is still out, and there are good reasons to be skeptical about the 'scientific consensus' and the certainty with which people promote the lipid hypothesis.

it seems to me that the jury is still out, i'm waiting for reliable double-blind studies that confirm or refute the above consensus, and in the meantime it seems that the best advice is no partially hydrogenated oils, more omega-3, and balance everything else.
 

simon

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When you look at all the data there is no link between saturated fat/cholesterol and heart disease. How the researchers twisted the data to support the anti-fat and cholesterol theories is laughable. It's not that the jury is still out; it's that you have on the one hand, your government and every health official and nutritionist telling you that saturated fat and cholesterol is evil, and on the other hand you have a smallish, but growing, movement of people who have researched the topic for themselves.

Colpo read 1400+ papers and pooled together all the information and took apart the shoddy research. He also explains what studies have shown to be ACTUAL risk factors for CHD; lack of exercise, consistently high blood sugars, lack of fruit/vegetables in the diet, stress etc etc. You would come to the same conclusion by reading all the papers yourself, but reading a summary in book form saves time.
 
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