Muscle Failure?

[MindOverMatter]

And no, I'm not changing my argument from mass to strength. Maximal strength and maximal mass go hand in hand. You have to build a lot of mass to get as strong as you can, and you have to build a lot of strength to get as big as you can. It is then not a change in argument, but rather, an addition.

No, mass and strength are two seperate things. It's possible to be very strong and not have a very muscular body. Strength comes from muscle density. Pavel's whole Power to the People book is a guide on how to increase strength while not getting big. If you look at competitive powerlifters who are not in the unlimited category, they have to increase their strength while staying the same body weight.

You can gain strength while keeping your mass at the same level, and you can gain mass while not necesserily fullfulling your strength potential.

That's not the same thing. If a fighter intentionally takes 2 seconds to throw every punch with those weights on, he might wear out faster, but his gains are going to suck. As far as lifting, there is a difference between lifting slow because you can't go any faster and still maintain form, and lifting slow outside of that realm.

Pavel doesn't train for hypertrophy. He trains to have the most strength and endurance that he can without gaining size (as do many of Dragondoor's patrons). At his weight, he can deadlift over 500 lbs.

No the puncher's gains wont suck. Like I said, Bruce Lee used to train with them, and his speed was legendary. Training slow with resistance does build strength, and once you remove the slow speed and the resistance, your speed is explosive. Like I said, when I bench and don't slow down my reps, I can add way more weight on (even tho I don't train with reps that aren't slow).

I managed to get my hands on a copy of Power to the People, so far I've only flipped through it, but from what I've read, Pavel preaches the same thing I do. 1-2 sets of exercise, with proper form, focus on tension (same as high intensity). He also encourages slow lifting. Once I read the whole thing I'll post the referrences here. You can also download it off LimeWire (if you don't have a problem stealing copyrighted material).

Anyways, you might be intrigued by my workouts now. Instead of changing to a 3 day split like I was talking about, I instead changed to a full 20-rep squat routine, with 1x20 squats and 5x5 either lat pulldowns or bench press (depending on the day (every workout I alternate). I felt I was back into the game enough to do this, so I'll get back to you on it 6 weeks (and hopefully 30 lbs) later. [/B]

That's pretty good, your workouts will be short and you wont overtrain. Only thing that is missing is the lack of deadlifts / millitary press.

I like the HIT compound only strength cycle. I'll do this every once in a while for 8 weeks. It's basically:

2 sets of squats
2 sets of flat bench press
2 sets of deadlifts
2 sets of millitary press

Each set is 4-6 reps to positive failure. I'd do this 3x a week, and increase the weight by a bit every week. I've always made solid strength gains on it.

Also, I've read that article you posted, and the author does state that he gained 30 lbs, but he doesn't say how much bf% he gained. He says himself that he did not measure his bodyfat %, but that it was minimal. There is no way you can accurately tell bodyfat with the naked eye. I know this, because I measure mine very often.

Also, he says that he never did squats prior to the 1x20 squats, so that's another explenation for his fast gains.

You're not gonna gain 30lbs of muscle mass in 6 weeks with a 1-2% bf increase without steroids. If you gain 30lbs in 6 weeks naturally, most of it will be fat. Building lean mass naturally is a slow slow process.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Originally posted by Ricky
MindoverMatter

As a busy professional I've been training HIT style for a few years and love it.

Could you post a routine. If you don't want all the doubters to read it just PM me.

I have done just as well on high volume as low volume. I'm a hardgainer naturally so I am happier doing low volume and getting the same gains as high volume. Plus I have a life outside the gym

Doing a fullbody workout gives me a better buzz than 10 sets of each exercise that leaves me bored.

Tried PMing you, your mailbox is full. Let me know when it's empty.

 

[MetalFortress]

Originally posted by MindOverMatter
No, mass and strength are two seperate things. It's possible to be very strong and not have a very muscular body. Strength comes from muscle density. Pavel's whole Power to the People book is a guide on how to increase strength while not getting big. If you look at competitive powerlifters who are not in the unlimited category, they have to increase their strength while staying the same body weight.

You can gain strength while keeping your mass at the same level, and you can gain mass while not necesserily fullfulling your strength potential.

But you aren't going to have Dr. Squat's numbers with Pavel's size, and you're not gonna have Ronnie's size with my level of strength. That was my point.

No the puncher's gains wont suck. Like I said, Bruce Lee used to train with them, and his speed was legendary. Training slow with resistance does build strength, and once you remove the slow speed and the resistance, your speed is explosive. Like I said, when I bench and don't slow down my reps, I can add way more weight on (even tho I don't train with reps that aren't slow).

I managed to get my hands on a copy of Power to the People, so far I've only flipped through it, but from what I've read, Pavel preaches the same thing I do. 1-2 sets of exercise, with proper form, focus on tension (same as high intensity). He also encourages slow lifting. Once I read the whole thing I'll post the referrences here. You can also download it off LimeWire (if you don't have a problem stealing copyrighted material).

Wait a second, either you're confused, or you're confusing me. I never said there was anything wrong with slowing down enough that you don't eff up your form. Pavel advocates good form, not "super slow" reps. You can do a 1-2 second positive bench rep with just as good a form as you can a 4-second rep, unless you are a newbie.

As far as the punches go, I'm saying that Lee still punched even with the weights on, and that if he did the "super slow" thing (IE extended his arms forward and tapped the punching bag with 4 second punch reps) then he wasn't going to do as well as he would have if he actually punched. Lee also used kettlebells, but that's off topic



"That's pretty good, your workouts will be short and you wont overtrain. Only thing that is missing is the lack of deadlifts / millitary press."

"Also, I've read that article you posted, and the author does state that he gained 30 lbs, but he doesn't say how much bf% he gained. He says himself that he did not measure his bodyfat %, but that it was minimal. There is no way you can accurately tell bodyfat with the naked eye. I know this, because I measure mine very often."

I'll get back to you on this one in 6 weeks.

"Also, he says that he never did squats prior to the 1x20 squats, so that's another explenation for his fast gains."

He said never "really" did squats, but that sounds like he didn't do any real set routines, just enough to get his form right before he started. Anybody who does the super squats without checking their form first is just asking for an injury.

"You're not gonna gain 30lbs of muscle mass in 6 weeks with a 1-2% bf increase without steroids. If you gain 30lbs in 6 weeks naturally, most of it will be fat. Building lean mass naturally is a slow slow process."

Again, I will get back to you in six weeks on that. Rather than debate it with you, I'm going to do my best to prove you wrong myself.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Again, I will get back to you in six weeks on that. Rather than debate it with you, I'm going to do my best to prove you wrong myself.

Sounds good, take some bodyfat measurements too.

 

[MetalFortress]

TWO WEEK UPDATE

Just finished two weeks of 20-rep squats. Weight was at 226 six days ago. Today, I should be around 230, but I haven't had access to a scale lately. Belt size is the same, if not a tad bit looser, than when I started.

http://l719.myspace.com/00117/91/79/117579719_l.jpg Pic taken tonight. No attempts are being made to flex.

My 20 rep squat today was 165. Last week monday, it was 140, yet felt tougher than today's. DB bench press and lat pulldown have seen massive improvements too.

Follow my workouts here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=483366

4 weeks left on the 20-rep squats. Here's to gains!

 

[semag]

I've been doing the 20 reppers for a couple weeks too... ATTG. Good stuff.

I think next week I'm gonna bust goold old doggcrapp's style. Warm up, bust a 6 rep super heavy set, and follow it up after some rest with a 20 repper set. There you get your volume and CNS overload in the same workout.

He says he likes to do trainees with that because there aren't a lot of trainees that can bust full intensity on just heavy weight/low rep, or on a 1 set 20 rep squat, and putting both together gives him good results.

Originally posted by Doggcrapp

Quads, I tell everyone to do a 4-8 backbreaker set with very heavy tonnage and then a widowmaker set of 20 reps and i do this myself but honestly at this heavy of a bodyweight, there have been times where I really thought I was going to cease living after getting off a 20 rep squat because I was breathing so hard and couldnt get enough oxygen in my lungs to sustain me. My gym is on the second floor with no open windows at all, just central air ducts---for some strange reason, its ok breathing sometimes and other times (especially in a crowded gym) your gasping for air after a heavy chest set nevermind the 20 rep squat set. I do believe the lighter guys in the 150 to 250lb range in this forum can still get away with doing things normally but the very heavy guys might be biting carpet on a hot day after a 20 rep squat. So for myself on day one i do free squats **** heavy and then the hack for my 20 repper (which leaves me breathing like a locomotive anyway) and on the other day I do the newer leg press for both my heavy and widowmaker sets and on the last leg day i do smythe squats **** heavy and then the widowmaker on the older leg press. So as you see same scheme just some tweaks i do for myself if you were curious.