MtmVaott's Progress and Contemplation Diary

[Plinco]

I understand. Since I don't love myself enough, if I would start being very selfish right now, I would be narcissistic, ruthless and cruel. I suspect that is exactly what I experience from these women I call 'selfish'.
I can also see that putting my interests ahead of other people's interests is normal, I already do it. What I don't do is to put my interests ahead if it would go to the expense of others. This is the point I don't want to cross until I love myself enough to balance it.

I know what you mean with the first.
For those who do it 'for who I am', it's because I communicate to them that I don't value myself. They engage in hurtful behaviour because they feel superior and it boosts their ego. Again, it's what I called 'selfish'.

So when I talked about selfishness, I meant selfishness without self-love. I don't know the term for that. Maybe being confident but ruthless and cold-hearted.
I'm still advised to look for self-loving, kind, warm persons.

In the English language, selfishness does not necessarily equate to narcissism.

 

[MtmVaott]

In the English language, selfishness does not necessarily equate to narcissism.

Yes, narcissism. That's it.
I've found these trait continuums that describe it from the outside:
Altruism - selfishness, consideration - ruthlessness, healthy sensibility - offendedness, dysfunctional perception of self- and external value.
It's a mindset and everbody is narcissistic to an extent. The degree depends on the core beliefs the person has.

 

[Plinco]

To a certain extent, the term narcissism is a shaming tactic for those who love themselves.

 

[member160761]

And I actually think Pooks explanations about desire and being the prize are unhelpful and just backwards rationalisations why he became successful with women.

Pook is right on the money. This is how men think in patriarchal societies about themselves and used to in the West. It was not an active ongoing thought process but ingrained into the very being of man. Speaking of my own experience. Self-esteem issues and thinking low of yourself and obsessing about it is a female thing.

 

[BoostedArrow]

I read both of Pook's threads now.
There is something cristallizing: The power engine for self-actualization.

Pook wrote Speed Seduction (I assume Pick Up) helped him becoming a Don Juan (someone who just is and who lives life for himself).
Also his 'guideposts' like 'be the prize', 'desirelessness', 'be a challenge' helped him. These are basically positive affirmations. And they kickstart the engine.

I myself experienced the power engine while I faked 'Alpha behavior'. However, mine crashed.

So what I could see is he describes the fuel to the engine as doing what makes him happy, fulfilled. His passions and hobbies.
It's recommended to go where women are, also talking to them, but not reacting, not asking out, rejecting if necessary.
Because the developing Nice Guy rises and falls with validation from others, even more fuel goes into the engine.
But the fuel can't leak, because he never takes the risk of asking out, never makes any moves whatsoever and doesn't even look more into her eyes than necessary. The engine will crash as soon as the ego is swallen enough. Instead of into the ego, direct the impulsion:

This engine isn't designed to 'get girls', it's designed to use the validation of girls to propel and fuel my own development:
Making myself happier and more fulfilled. Spending time with people who are compatible to me and where I feel free around. Changing my core beliefs, making my thinking constructive and optimistic. Being me. Getting to know me.

Where can I find those Texts of pook? Are they in the book of pook?

So what you're doing with the engine is operating without the need for getting validation of others?

 

[MtmVaott]

Where can I find those Texts of pook? Are they in the book of pook?

So what you're doing with the engine is operating without the need for getting validation of others?

They are in the 'uplifting material' section of the Don Juan bible https://www.sosuave.net/forum/threads/recommended-books-for-all-men-new-members-start-here.269601/

No, how should I do that, I put a lot of value on how I am perceived by others.
Read everything Pook wrote in those threads of the Don Juan bible, maybe it's enough to understand the bigger picture.
But I'll try myself: As someone with crippling core beliefs, negative thoughts, life sucks. To make life more livable, you'll need to alter what you automatically think (and the beliefs, those are even more engrained automatic thoughts). Get rid of detrimental habits like judging, analyzing, phantasizing, worrying, excessive problem-solving without purpose, addictions, distractions like mindless music consumption etc., getting out into fresh air once in a while, and so on. All that can be extremely exhausting. So you also want to do activities that fulfill you.
Now, you'll meet women inevitably on your way. They can stagger your process and set you back completely, depending how fvcked up your thoughts and beliefs are and how attractive/incompatible/detrimental for you she is. So it's best to keep women at a platonic level.
That provides 2 benefits: 1. They don't endanger your process and 2. You get pleasant conversations.
I don't think anymore the ego boost by interested women is helpful. that ego boost is mostly because women want to fvck you/are interested, but they don't even really know you or you can already say you don't like them and they don't seem to care.
And ego is one of your biggest enemies in this process anyway. It's easier to pretend you are valuable because you do/have 'whatever' instead of changing how you think.
Also, women who are very attractive are still a threat. The desire is too strong, and you'll self sabotage and try to 'get her'. It's better to back off completely and analyze the thoughts around the less attractive women. It's easier to access thoughts with weeker emotional responses.

 

[MtmVaott]

They are in the 'uplifting material' section of the Don Juan bible https://www.sosuave.net/forum/threads/recommended-books-for-all-men-new-members-start-here.269601/

No, how should I do that, I put a lot of value on how I am perceived by others.
Read everything Pook wrote in those threads of the Don Juan bible, maybe it's enough to understand the bigger picture.
But I'll try myself: As someone with crippling core beliefs, negative thoughts, life sucks. To make life more livable, you'll need to alter what you automatically think (and the beliefs, those are even more engrained automatic thoughts). Get rid of detrimental habits like judging, analyzing, phantasizing, worrying, excessive problem-solving without purpose, addictions, distractions like mindless music consumption etc., getting out into fresh air once in a while, and so on. All that can be extremely exhausting. So you also want to do activities that fulfill you.
Now, you'll meet women inevitably on your way. They can stagger your process and set you back completely, depending how fvcked up your thoughts and beliefs are and how attractive/incompatible/detrimental for you she is. So it's best to keep women at a platonic level.
That provides 2 benefits: 1. They don't endanger your process and 2. You get pleasant conversations.
I don't think anymore the ego boost by interested women is helpful. that ego boost is mostly because women want to fvck you/are interested, but they don't even really know you or you can already say you don't like them and they don't seem to care.
And ego is one of your biggest enemies in this process anyway. It's easier to pretend you are valuable because you do/have 'whatever' instead of changing how you think.
Also, women who are very attractive are still a threat. The desire is too strong, and you'll self sabotage and try to 'get her'. It's better to back off completely and analyze the thoughts around the less attractive women. It's easier to access thoughts with weeker emotional responses.

A Guide to Making Interesting Conversation

Introduction Most people are boring in their conversations. You ... may be boring. I don’t know yet. You may bore many of the people in your life ... and not even realize it yet. It’s possible. I certainly used to. But I do know they’d never tell you if they thought you were a bore to...

www.sosuave.net

Important thread for me. I don't focus enough on getting to know others when I talk to them. Sometimes, others open conversations with me, but it dies out fast. I'll have to assess if I don't provide enough clues in my responses, or if they are only interested in the answer to their opening question. And I have to pay attention if I am the one who is mostly opening the conversations, not the other person, and rate their interest level.

 

[MtmVaott]

Every time I chase a girl, I am running away from my life.

Every time I think of a girl in a romantic sense, I escape my life in my imagination.


A man looks in front of him.
And walks towards the horizon.

 

[MtmVaott]

A woman told me how she met her husband. Never thought much about it till now:

The guy was a friends friend. Borrowed something from him. She was interested. Instead of returning what she borrowed by just placing it somewhere (I think it was the key of a caravan), she ringed the guy out to hand it over.
She explicitely mentioned: He never cared about women before he met me and just did his own thing (with his friends).

This was a woman's advice (she arranged an opportunity). But an opportunity for what? For the prize, this guy.
She only thought fondly of her move, because in the end, it turned out to be a guy who did his own thing.

 

[MtmVaott]

Oh man. For everybody who's first language is not English: Prize =/= price:
"A prize is an award to be given to a person or a group of people (such as sporting teams and organizations) to recognize and reward their actions and achievements."


For women, sex, sexual appearance and feminine behaviour is always something they use to compete with the other women and to achieve prizes (men).

Hence, a man who tries to get sex or affection in a romantic sense from women tries to sell a prize with no meaning and no worth. The woman has to do nothing to earn it, he's the consolation prize.

On the other side, the man who encourages women he likes in their pursuits, who expects them to qualify for him, who is choosy, who rejects as soon the woman doesn't provide value in the pursuit of HIS prizes.

Now, the question is what are the prizes of men? Here I am not sure yet.

 

[MtmVaott]

I posted today in a thread of Pook that was digged out to
"... do what you want anyway, don't make yourself a fool, and leave on the first breeze of low interest." and "... screen for low interest. If she's incompliant or unenthusiastic (even only once), take it as a message and leave."

"Anti-Dump says: It it's NEGATIVE, it's probably true." "Negative signs are much more reliable."

I mentioned positive signs which are reliable:
- puppy look (dilated pupils): Submits -> You can lead + do what you want with her
- glowing, beaming, smiling, ecxited face for a long time when she sees you: Flooded with 'love hormones' -> has feelings
- 'lusting look': Aroused and aroused only -> wants sex for pleasure without secondary intentions (e.g. future relationship)

Why are they reliable? Because they are based on (strong) emotions, which were created by repeated thoughts and evaluations. In contrast, even if true and honest, high interest signs are only results of thoughts and evaluations from the very moment.


Rejecting women for the negative signs and only accepting LTR proposals from women who show the reliable positive signs (or strict ONS or FWB 'offers' with rel. pos. sign #3) helps maintaining your dignity. Don't accept less, it's unworthy of a DonJuan.


Important from AD's machine by Pook: 100:10:3:1 ratio, so approaching like James Bond will become important. Mr. Fingers seemed to be a good poster for that.
I also wanted to check out some posts of slaog.


And now to what I actually wanted to highlight by this post:

Anti-Dump's Machine (Part IV: Embrace ACTION, Woman's Weak Spot)

You call a MINIMUM of four days. Your only calling days are monday, tuesday, wednesday. NEVER call thursday thru sunday. She will have made plans for the week end. Trips, aunts flying in, etc. This is simple. If you get a number on your calling days call the FOLLOWING week. If you get a...

www.sosuave.net

That's just a answer post in AD's machine thread, but this is the BEST explanation what 'alpha'/'having frame' is in normal words.

 

[MtmVaott]

I posted today in a thread of Pook that was digged out to
"... do what you want anyway, don't make yourself a fool, and leave on the first breeze of low interest." and "... screen for low interest. If she's incompliant or unenthusiastic (even only once), take it as a message and leave."

"Anti-Dump says: It it's NEGATIVE, it's probably true." "Negative signs are much more reliable."

I mentioned positive signs which are reliable:
- puppy look (dilated pupils): Submits -> You can lead + do what you want with her
- glowing, beaming, smiling, ecxited face for a long time when she sees you: Flooded with 'love hormones' -> has feelings
- 'lusting look': Aroused and aroused only -> wants sex for pleasure without secondary intentions (e.g. future relationship)

Why are they reliable? Because they are based on (strong) emotions, which were created by repeated thoughts and evaluations. In contrast, even if true and honest, high interest signs are only results of thoughts and evaluations from the very moment.


Rejecting women for the negative signs and only accepting LTR proposals from women who show the reliable positive signs (or strict ONS or FWB 'offers' with rel. pos. sign #3) helps maintaining your dignity. Don't accept less, it's unworthy of a DonJuan.


Important from AD's machine by Pook: 100:10:3:1 ratio, so approaching like James Bond will become important. Mr. Fingers seemed to be a good poster for that.
I also wanted to check out some posts of slaog.


And now to what I actually wanted to highlight by this post:

Anti-Dump's Machine (Part IV: Embrace ACTION, Woman's Weak Spot)

You call a MINIMUM of four days. Your only calling days are monday, tuesday, wednesday. NEVER call thursday thru sunday. She will have made plans for the week end. Trips, aunts flying in, etc. This is simple. If you get a number on your calling days call the FOLLOWING week. If you get a...

www.sosuave.net

That's just a answer post in AD's machine thread, but this is the BEST explanation what 'alpha'/'having frame' is in normal words.

To follow up on this:

Pook says just like men should buy a relationship, women do this already (not a surprise).
But there is an important difference in the sexes:

"Women do not see guys, they see different realities to enter."

These realities are what is called 'frame'. It's what you think is right and wrong, what's important and not.
Notice I didn't write 'want', 'expect' and 'need'. This is important, but it's not part of the reality. In a sense the reality is a frame, cause you operate within it. But 'want', 'expect' and 'need' are softer than the reality, they are fleeting within the reality. The reality is what is also referred to as the 'rock' that a man is.

I experienced women don't care if you have weird convictions, as long as they are firm. On the other hand, you should be able to change your opinions if they prove wrong and consider different opinions. And then share them or reject them. This is different from what we are familiar with from our female society and the mentality that tolerance means denial of opinion. You should always have a strong opinion or have the strong 'opinion' that you don't know.

"Why do women always say, like a broken record, to 'be yourself'? It is because they don't see guys, they see worlds. [I am talking about LTR types here, not ONS]"
That was an eye opening connection for me...also, if you are authentic you manifest your reality outside. That's what women want.
I would cross out "not ONS". They respond to frame like all other women. With interest.
Then you find yourself amidst women who try to get your attention or try to sell their single female friends, and you can have to use AD's machine (at least to filter the toxic women).

DeAngelo seems to 'have it' (as does Mr. Fingers by the way IMO):
" THIS IS MY REALITY, AND SHE IS A GUEST. "
“YOU’RE IN MY REALITY NOW.”
"DeAngelo likes the No, but.... He and the girl are going to sit down and he goes, "Not this chair. Let's sit over there," and leads her over there. Back at the bedroom, the girl is spreading her legs, panting, telling DeAngelo to give it to her! He says, "No, I am not done kissing you yet.""

The reality is NOT passive, it's not touchy feely. It is aggressive, and it is outward. You manifest your reality outside.

Nurturing and comforting are not by accident more based on emotions and inward changes. You need to do this too, but women do this as their full time job. Yours is give the world your stamp.

 

[pipeman84]

Now, the question is what are the prizes of men? Here I am not sure yet.

According to Doc Love, the main qualities that women look for in a man are confidence, self-control (disciplined, patient) and challenge (meaning basically that he sees himself as a prize that the woman has to prove herself worthy of receiving).
This following quote from Zan Perrion also resonates with me and I think it's 100% true:

Here is the secret of the ages, the secret of men whom women eternally love: They are father figures and little boys—simultaneously! There you go. I’ve never heard anyone say that before, but I am convinced it is true. Leadership and vulnerability, a lightning combination that is utterly impossible for women to resist. A woman wants to be put in her place by a leader and, at the same time, she wants to take care of him immensely.

She wants him to stand guard at the mouth of the cave, fire-torch in hand, majestic and defiant against the elements in one moment, then crawl into her lap like a kitten the next. The leader side of them is never aggressive or controlling; it is firm and in command. And the boyish side of them is never mewling or pitiable; it is playful and beaming and in need of a bath

 

[MtmVaott]

I came on today to make some additions to 'having frame':

It is more a state of being than anything else.
- you need a direction. Always directions. You can't 'have frame' if you have no direction
- you are telling a story. Your story. You are telling it to yourself
- if you 'have frame', you are using your frontal cortax. If you live aimlessly your life, you won't feel your frontal cortax being used (if it's activated, it's like tension at the forehead). With 'frame', you can observe yourself, your emotions, your thoughts, your actions etc. You are in a higher position, in control.
There is a meditation teqnique where you look at yourself from outside, and there is the teqnique where you observe yourself breathing and then count or label it as 'in' and 'out'. That activates your frontal cortex and gets you into this higher control position. Meditation might help you to 'get frame'
- there are always things that you MUST do. It doesn't matter if you don't have passions, you still have obligations. These give you directions
- 'having frame' is tightly connected to passions. Passions make 'having frame' easier.
- 'having frame' and aimlessness are like fire and water. Aimlessness (or procrastination!) kills 'having frame'. Aimlessness is not necessarily the abscence of an aim. The thoughts need to be constructive, productive, step-wise, and be like you talk with yourself. TAlk with yourself to practice having directions. Also diary writing helps.

-> Meditation and self-talking/diary writing are good habits to habitize 'having frame', regardless of current life situation

Edit: This post is super messy now. I'm sure many already know what I address here. It's kind of a natural development also.
If talk is about be a challenge, be the prize, the 'having frame' already covers that. It also covers the seduction.
Forgive my English.
@pipeman84 I really like this Zan Perrion guy. Thank you for mentioning him.

 

[MtmVaott]

I remembered one of AD's advices which I didn't understand then:

If the girl is too shy, and therefore does not make the selection process (AD's machine), she is disqualified.

Now, this sounds right if you think about your dignity and that you don't want to go out of your way and disgrace yourself for someone else.

However, there is a second aspect, which I know realized much more:

Women are afraid of being raped.
I mean this serious. It's very easy to do if you are alone and in her perception, you might be desperate enough to do it. Due to the fear, they get inhibited and uneasy. Since they are in truth aversive to build the relation with you, they sabotage it by being passive aggressive, too.
This may also be the case if you two are in a group of other people and she's afraid what the others might think of her if she is not sociable towards you.
Or that you begin to bully her.
Or that you begin to badmouth her.

I was going to say you can distinguish the first kind of shy girl from the second, because the first kind will do the 'puppy look' when you are long enough in contact. But is this true?
Even if you would get this look, she could just be scared. You risk a complaint in the worst case. Is this worth the risk?
What never went back on me was clarity. Clarity of intent. If the interested shy girls don't dare to do this, they are out.

 

[RazorRambo24]

I am trying to hold back serious levels of cringe here.. to offer you some solid advice.. and that is: You're 27 man.. stop reading all this nonsense/books about women.. It won't serve for any good and will only confuse you. The worse thing I ever seen men do is say **** like "but but.. So and SO said you had to do this.. or that women are like this".. and reference books or videos or some program.. Literally the cringiest sh.t ever.

If you need books or other men to tell you what women are like and how they think, you're simply not social enough. You need to fix that before you fix anything else.

So 1) Stop reading books/nonsense about women from guys who mostly write that stuff to make a buck. They're interactions with women are based on their own personality and who they are.. not you

2) You're 27. Going out twice a week and socializing/meeting and talking tgo women will gain you much more experience than anything else.. Why? because its specifically catered to you and who you are. No book is catered to any man.. most of them are general speaking and alot of nonsense that doesnt even make up for cultural differences between big urban citiies and rural towns or any of that./age and personality differences of women/personality differences in men. No book is catered specifically for you except the book of life and real world experience.