More Appreciative about College Education

[WORKEROUTER]

Originally posted by sifer
Most people (specifically and majority are middle class) should be much more wealthier or richer by then.

WORKEROUTER, I suggest you check out these two books:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-7437582-0740910?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Millionaire Mind

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-7437582-0740910?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Millionaire Next Door

These books are statistic on millionaires and how or what they do to make a living. You'd be surprise, many of these millionaires were made in one generation and oftentime short, through hard-work, smart saving, and doing the things they love.

In one of the books, it says, "the reason why the authors aren't rich was because the authors were busy chasing degrees for more a better paying job!"

"By sending the child to school, they are destroying the very foundation that made them rich."

"I find no correlation between SAT scores, grade-point averages and economic achievement. None."

This means that just because you go to one of the Ivy Leagues doesn't mean you'll be rich or the next millionaire. There is no correlation, ANYONE can get rich and wealthy. All it takes is proper planning and will (there are more, these two are my foundation of my success), and guess what?

You can pick out any Ivy Leagues student and you will see majority of them do not have proper planning. I've gotten response from them when I ask "what do you plan to do after you graduate college?" They often give me "I don't know, that's so far away I don't really care".

If you have a job, I bet chances are you also cannot invest as well as those who specialize nor can you run a business properly.

Take stock investing, you will not be able to monitor its up and down while at work, therefore put you at more risk.

Take real estate investing, after you come home from work, say 6PM, let's say you decide to start investing at 6:30PM, you must find a lawyer, find the house, so on and so forth. In fact, many people have told me they quit REI simply because they found it impossible to invest in RE or anything else because it takes so much time. Then paperworks, oh paperworks in RE will definitely eat your hours up.

Again, make your own choice. If you need a job to fund your capital, well, that's you. I've never had a job and never will (except if you count real estate investing or owning a business as one).

Remember, this is your life, not mine, not your parent's. Live it well and trust your instinct.

I am going to read those two books and get back to you.

But the thing is that most people DO NEED capital from a job..after all, it's not just going to appear out of thin air. I know several people who work comfortable jobs making 50 to 60 thousand dollars a year, but then invest heavily in real estate, and they are millionaires from their investments. The point is that it is a lot easier to get credit and capital, both of which one needs to invest, with a secure job as a safety net.

 

[tristan22]

A question (not an attack, just a question):

How can you only make 50 to 60 thousand a year and become a millionaire off of real estate? Once the government taxes your paycheck, you pay your property taxes, insurance, car payment, mortgage, bills etc. you would have no money to live or invest. 60 grand a year is nothing! I have heard of frugal 80 year olds dying and leaving a small fortune to a church or school, but these people lived in poverty and saved every dime they earned (saving this amount of money took decades). You can't just buy real estate, sell it, and make a nice profit to put back into your pocket. Have you heard of capital gain tax?

.......A lot of you talk as if you've made millions, but the points you are trying to make always derive from some sort of book; kind of questionable if you ask me.

 

[WORKEROUTER]

Originally posted by tristan22
A question (not an attack, just a question):

How can you only make 50 to 60 thousand a year and become a millionaire off of real estate? Once the government taxes your paycheck, you pay your property taxes, insurance, car payment, mortgage, bills etc. you would have no money to live or invest. 60 grand a year is nothing! I have heard of frugal 80 year olds dying and leaving a small fortune to a church or school, but these people lived in poverty and saved every dime they earned (saving this amount of money took decades). You can't just buy real estate, sell it, and make a nice profit to put back into your pocket. Have you heard of capital gain tax?

.......A lot of you talk as if you've made millions, but the points you are trying to make always derive from some sort of book; kind of questionable if you ask me.

Compare someone who brings in a net profit of just $40,000 per year versus someone who is toiling like hell at $10 per hour.

Assume both of them are equally well-versed in finance and investing, and both of them have the same ambitions in life to become financially secure through wise investments.

Who has the better hand? THE GUY MAKING $40,000! Compared to the other one, he has more money that he can use to invest. PLUS, banks are more willing to give him loans. Really, you don't need a lot of money saved up; you need credit. In fact, I would say that is one of the reasons for getting a degree...it's easier to get loans.

And don't say that the financially literate person wouldn't be toiling under someone else...that it's only the stupid people who work for others...because EVERYONE has to start at the bottom and move up. You don't start as a CEO..you work your way up. You want to be the owner of a business? Great. Where's your capital? ANSWER: IT HAS TO BE GAINED OR BUILT.

And so, to gain a FOUNDATION, one needs to earn money, and that means waking up and going to work, for someone else, until your foundation is set and you can now do your own thing!

The problem with the majority of people is that they never think of work like this. They think that a job is the end of the road...and that's why they toil under someone else's supervision for the rest of their life and try to scrape by..then start b*tching about the free market society.

 

[STR8UP]

Originally posted by WORKEROUTER
But the thing is that most people DO NEED capital from a job..after all, it's not just going to appear out of thin air.

Or so it would appear to most people.

Let me ask you a question. Do most people pay cash for real estate? Of course not. Most people save a down payment and finance the rest for 30 years.

I know from your posts that you are seriously interested in building wealth. In order to do that you need to get comfortable with using borrowed money to buy appreciating assets. Buying ANYTHING requires money, but that doesn't mean that it has to come from YOUR pocket. You DON'T have to rely on a salary to finance your investments. That's the middle class way to invest. That's why most middle class people have to work until they are in their 60's then end up working part time as a Wal Mart greeter to pay their bills.

When you learn that BORROWING money is much more important than SAVING money, you have found the key.

When faced with a challenge (such as getting together seed money to invest) the ones who get creative get rich, the ones who complain about not being able to do anything get left behind. There is ALWAYS a way to substitute creativity for cash. ALWAYS.

 

[tristan22]

WORKEROUTER

1. Your last post, that's just common sense. You still havn't given any valuable information, just cliche information that anyone with sense already knows.

2. You didn't answer my question.

3. You have to be able to pay back creditors.

4. Have you seen what they are paying todays college graduates (with engineering and technical degrees being an exception)? The gap between blue collar and white collar is almost even!

5. If i had it to do over again, i would have skipped college.

 

[WORKEROUTER]

"How can you only make 50 to 60 thousand a year and become a millionaire off of real estate?"

Tristan, this makes absolutely no sense.

Are you saying that 50 or 60 thousand ISN'T enough money to invest with?

You say "only 50 or 60 thousand," as if an investor needs millions to invest in.

There are LOTS of people who have invested in real estate and have made secure investments with making this much money...As STR8UP said, you can used borrowed money to invest with. Do you disagree that it is easier to get borrowed money and credit with a secure job as a safety net?

If you disagree, explain why. If you don't disagree, then doesn't it follow that since this is true, it also means that a secure job provides a safer way to get into investments?

STR8UP:

My question is this: How would someone like ME, who is just 18, with no credit, barely scraping by for next month's rent, invest using "borrowed" money. It seems that right now, my ONLY option is to work for $8-10 dollars per hour...a bank would not even give me a loan for a hundred dollars! I was having this conversation with a friend a couple days ago, as we both want to get into investments but find we have no way to do so!

The conclusion I formed is that right now, I have no FOUNDATION. Not only do I not have any money, but I do not have any credit. And so, it makes it a little difficult to make any kind of investment!

 

[STR8UP]

Originally posted by WORKEROUTER


STR8UP:

My question is this: How would someone like ME, who is just 18, with no credit, barely scraping by for next month's rent, invest using "borrowed" money. It seems that right now, my ONLY option is to work for $8-10 dollars per hour...a bank would not even give me a loan for a hundred dollars! I was having this conversation with a friend a couple days ago, as we both want to get into investments but find we have no way to do so!

The conclusion I formed is that right now, I have no FOUNDATION. Not only do I not have any money, but I do not have any credit. And so, it makes it a little difficult to make any kind of investment!

You're getting ahead of yourself. YOU'RE ONLY 18!!!! Relax a bit. Get a degree. Hang out with your friends. Hook up with loose women. Enjoy life!

Who knows? Maybe you will find that you are more suited for climbing the corporate ladder and buying a few mutual funds and a rental property or two. Maybe you are destined to be the next Trump? Point is, you are too young to really know yet.

The thing you have going for you is that you are more financially savvy at age 18 than most people EVER become. Although at this point it is only "book" knowledge and not learned from experience (which is very important) you have managed to grasp the basics which will help you throughout your life.

At this point you should stay in school, work if possible, and continue studying and building your credit. You are truly at square one. If you apply your knowledge there is no doubt in my mind you couldn't be retired by the time you are in your 30's. Just make sure that you don't get frustrated with not being able to go 100mph right out of the starting gate. Give it time!

 

[sifer]

Originally posted by tristan22
.......A lot of you talk as if you've made millions, but the points you are trying to make always derive from some sort of book; kind of questionable if you ask me.

That's the thing, you must learn for yourself.

A lot of things that I have personally learned derived from many things, not just books. Books is one form of great knowledge, learning from other's experience is another, experiencing life is another, and soul-searching (ie; 'Who am I?') is another.

STR8UP own properties.
Penkitten own properties.
Jvesti own a business.
I own a property.
And I believe most of us speak from experience.

A lot of things are questionable, but the main question you should ask is, "what am I going to do?" Not "hm.. has Pook ever gotten laid?" or.. "what does sifer look like?" or.. [insert question here].

None of us are currently making millions, but many of us who follow the "way", that is, our way, our method, or plan that we have, will eventually make millions.

The rich get richer. And it all start with the mind.

 

[sifer]

It all ends in patience.

I will say it again. It all ends in patience.

Originally posted by tristan22
How can you only make 50 to 60 thousand a year and become a millionaire off of real estate?
This seems to be the mindset of those who are looking to get rich quick. You don't become a millionaire instantly. It takes years and years.

Once the government taxes your paycheck, you pay your property taxes, insurance, car payment, mortgage, bills etc. you would have no money to live or invest.
This is why I don't have a job, I don't get a paycheck, I don't get taxed as heavily and I have more time and get taxed less because the gov't/IRS see it differently.

Your property should've paid off your property taxes, insurance, mortgage, electric/utility, etcetc. You should have absolutely no bill to pay. Positive cashflow.

Robert Kiyosaki spoke on this too, this is why he and Dolf de Roos don't have a job.

You can't just buy real estate, sell it, and make a nice profit to put back into your pocket.
That's called flipping, you can. People have made more than $100,000 within a couple of hours. Unfortunately, I can't speak of politics too much here, let's just say the gov't have added more laws on this. Flipping became too profitable, politicians aren't happy that there are no laws or tax (you get taxed very little when you flip) on flipping properties so they made it harder.

There was a period when people went on flipping frenzy, many have made hundreds of thousands.

Have you heard of capital gain tax?
We all have I believe. Yes it isn't a lot of money in the beginning. However, if I must go into detail, I will write a small guide when I have time.

It all ends in patience. As Pook has said, what makes a Don Juan is patience, what makes a millionaire is patience.

 

[ghostin]

Why get a college degree??


THE MAJORITY of doctors are very well off.
THE MAJORITY of pharmacists are well off
THE MAJORITY of lawyers are well off
THE MAJORITY of dentists are well off
THE MAJORITY of orthodontists are very well off.


Can you say any of that about the typical person without a college degree???

NO!!

College degrees give u secuirty and stability.

 

[DjDreamer]

Originally posted by sifer
It all ends in patience.

I will say it again. It all ends in patience.



It all ends in patience. As Pook has said, what makes a Don Juan is patience, what makes a millionaire is patience.

So true...

It's all about getting ones inner self right (being at peace) before surrounding oneself with wealth.

College degree doesn't guarantee a job or peace of mind... there are plenty of out of work overqualified for a job depressed college graduates that would agree with me...

 

[sifer]

Originally posted by ghostin
Why get a college degree??


THE MAJORITY of doctors are very well off.
THE MAJORITY of pharmacists are well off
THE MAJORITY of lawyers are well off
THE MAJORITY of dentists are well off
THE MAJORITY of orthodontists are very well off.


Can you say any of that about the typical person without a college degree???

NO!!

College degrees give u secuirty and stability.

Actually you can.

College degrees doesn't give you security nor stability. I don't see how a piece of paper can.

You mean a job, even then, it won't and can't.

Let's use the quote below.. I will illustrate an example,

To build wealth, minimize your realized income
and maximize your unrealized income.

Your realized income is taxable.

It is known, literally, that time is money (I will illustrate how it is later after I explain this).

Time out, lose money.

The more hours you get, the more you make.
When you stop working, you stop making money.

Time in, more money.

With an asset, it is always making money for you. 24/7 while you sleep and make love.

Let's say you have no job, you have no realized income.

The IRS can't tax you for this.

You are not subjected to income tax of any form.

Your unrealized income is generally your asset.

You're not taxed for stocks income.

You're not taxed for rent income and you can depreciate your property even allowing you to make money.

Your capital grows allowing your net worth to grow. This would be your unrealized income.

Another form but much much riskier unrealized income would be gambling and poker, as an example.

I would have to demonstrate an example of survival (demonstrating security and stability), two man with jobs, let's say one has a positive net generating apartment and the other one doesn't.

What happens if both lose their job?

Everything has a price to pay, for the two, they pay the price of losing their job, their reward is no income tax of any form.

This would mean that the one with an net generating apartment would survive longer than one without it until the apartment starts to vacate, even then, he can still last by selling the apartment.

While the other might have been as good as on the street starving after his bank account is empty.

In other words, depending on where you live, a job is generally not too good to have as it's more a liability than an asset.

I've heard of income tax going up as high as 50% in Canada! Ouch! Wouldn't want a job there..

If what you said were true, then no doctors or teachers should ever be complaining about their "low salary".

Another thought I'd like you to ponder about - You've heard of college graduate students starving and not being able to find a job but leaving out the rare and exceptional situation, have you ever heard of a starving businessman? Generally no.

Another way to demonstrate it is this, if a college degree was really as secure and stable as one would have thought, then beside all the strikes and protests about "give us a raise" (the Teacher's Union went on a strike in NYC last few month, the firefighters and police also went on a strike until the Mayor came out and said that if there's anymore strikes, nobody gets an income for those who participate).

Beside all that, why do people chase more degrees and put themself in more debt and can you show me one person who got rich off of a job?

 

[sifer]

Sipher says...
It is known, literally, that time is money (I will illustrate how it is later after I explain this).

Now I shall show you how time is literally money and time well treated is money in your leather wallet.

*Sifer is seen humming to Beethoven*

This is called Time Value of Money.
The Time Value of Money usually consider the Present Value versus the Future Value.

There are many kind of time value of money, like annuity, interest, discounting etc.

I'm just going to go into the basics to give you an idea.

Einstein said the best way to teach is by example.

So let's pretend. We'll summon Pook.

Let's say I lend poor Pook $100 to him.

Now, I want the money back soon.

Of course, tomorrow would be a great time but unfortunately, for some reason Pook cannot pay back so quickly, so say in 5 years.

The present value (Present Time Value of Money) is $100.

If let's say he returned it to me in 5 years (damn you Pook!!! *shakes fist*) I would be at loss, meaning he actually owed me more.

If I left $100 at a bank with an interest rate at 10% per year, I would've earned something.

The future value (Future Time Value of Money) would be $161.051 or just $161.05.

So where's my extra $61.05 Pookie? :trouble:

FV=PV(1 + i)n

FV=Future Value
PV=Present Value
i=interest rate
n=to the power of, the amount of time

X will be assigned to FV.

X=100(1+.1)5
X=100(1.1)5
X=100(1.61051)
161.051 or

$161.05.

Let's hope my calculator didn't get me wrong.

Pook, hand over my money now!

 

[Interpol]

Originally posted by sifer

If what you said were true, then no doctors or teachers should ever be complaining about their "low salary".

Another thought I'd like you to ponder about - You've heard of college graduate students starving and not being able to find a job but leaving out the rare and exceptional situation, have you ever heard of a starving businessman? Generally no.

Another way to demonstrate it is this, if a college degree was really as secure and stable as one would have thought, then beside all the strikes and protests about "give us a raise" (the Teacher's Union went on a strike in NYC last few month, the firefighters and police also went on a strike until the Mayor came out and said that if there's anymore strikes, nobody gets an income for those who participate).

Beside all that, why do people chase more degrees and put themself in more debt and can you show me one person who got rich off of a job?

You leave out that jobs often have many additonal benefits beyond your salary, such as free healthcare, life insurance, and stock options, none of which are taxed...

Some of your examples seem inappropriate. Police, firefighters, and most union jobs don't require a college degree so they have no place in this discussion. Teachers require a college degree, but are not what I would call a lucrative profession. Teachers aren't in it for the money, so none of this matters to them either.

A college degree is more than just a piece of paper, it's the knowledge and experience contained within your mind that make you employable. THIS is what offers security and stability. Due to the laws of supply and demand, there are always some degrees that are "hot" or "cold" (for example, computer science majors went from high demand, to low, and are now high again). But these trends usually reverse within a few years time. A college degree is an investment in YOURSELF. As far as I'm concerned, this is the most valuable investment you can make because it can never be taken away from you.

As for your last sentence, I have no idea what you're talking about. CEOs, surgeons, investment bankers, professional athletes, engineers...Plenty of people get rich off of jobs.

 

[sifer]

Originally posted by Interpol
Some of your examples seem inappropriate. Police, firefighters, and most union jobs don't require a college degree so they have no place in this discussion. Teachers require a college degree, but are not what I would call a lucrative profession. Teachers aren't in it for the money, so none of this matters to them either.

You said teachers aren't in it for the money yet there're strikes at some time.

I can't speak for firefighters and other union jobs as I never had any form of interest or experience with them.

As for police...

Requirements to be hired:

• Sixty (60) college credits with a 2.0 G.P.A. from an accredited college or university

CEOs, surgeons, investment bankers, professional athletes, engineers...Plenty of people get rich off of jobs.

Perhaps I didn't consider them.

As for athletes, I'm going to leave them out as they're usually exceptionals, much like celebrities.

A college degree is an investment in YOURSELF. As far as I'm concerned, this is the most valuable investment you can make because it can never be taken away from you.

This is a pretty bad mindset to have, I suggest you consider things on a larger picture. I invite you to think about this, job get outsourced, once that happens that's considered "taken away" from you once you get laid off.

I also invite you to consider this, let's say another country offers job with higher pays (much higher, very lucrative), you want a job there but unfortunately, your degree only counts here in USA.

 

[Interpol]

You said teachers aren't in it for the money yet there're strikes at some time.

I can't speak for firefighters and other union jobs as I never had any form of interest or experience with them.

My point was that no one becomes a teacher with the goal of being rich (or anyone who does has been greatly misled). Going on strike (meaning, attempting to bargain for a "fair wage") does not imply greed or capitalism. After all, we need money to live.

This is a pretty bad mindset to have, I suggest you consider things on a larger picture. I invite you to think about this, job get outsourced, once that happens that's considered "taken away" from you once you get laid off.

People who lose their jobs don't become unemployed for life! You don't lose your education when you lose your job!

I also invite you to consider this, let's say another country offers job with higher pays (much higher, very lucrative), you want a job there but unfortunately, your degree only counts here in USA.

I don't know where you got this idea from. Do you think a company in London is going to turn away a Harvard grad, saying "Oh sorry, your degree doesn't count here"?? Not just Harvard either, a degree from any good state school will be recognized world wide.

 

[sifer]

Originally posted by Interpol
Going on strike (meaning, attempting to bargain for a "fair wage") does not imply greed or capitalism.
True, but $40,000-$50,000 is a good salary especially for a teacher, how much is a fair wage for a teacher?

Last I heard, my teachers in Manhattan were pushing $80,000 to $100,000 dollars per year during the protest. That's almost more than a doctor's salary!!

After all, we need money to live.
Give me $20,000 a year and I can not only live better off well than most people, I can take the money and invest it which will grow my net worth long years down the road.

There are people who still live on a $10,000 salary year and many who do fine too.

People who lose their jobs don't become unemployed for life! You don't lose your education when you lose your job!
True, but you still lost your job. Who is going to put the food on your table?

Not just Harvard either, a degree from any good state school will be recognized world wide.
Accepted, I'm not too sure. In fact, I know someone who graduated at one of east Asia's top university, came to USA for a better salary, and was told "we're sorry, we only accept degrees in United States and Europe, anywhere else we may not be able to obtain credential from, will not be accepted."

This goes for Japan, Hong Kong, etcetc. Many top graduates there that move to USA are unable to find a job because their degrees are useless here.

I could be wrong but maybe it's the other way around. That means you have to graduate in Harvard or MIT in order to be accepted for a work in China or Korea?

I'm not too sure I want to do that when US work pay much more.

At the great risk of being called a racist, this is what they mean when they say "in the White world", it means things can be interacted in a White man's world than any other place. A good degree in China counts in China, Japan, Taiwan, etcetc but not anywhere else especially USA, Canada, etcetc.

However a degree from an Ivy League in USA or Cambridge in Europe counts worldwide?

Hey things couldn't get more obvious.

 

[Interpol]

True, but $40,000-$50,000 is a good salary especially for a teacher, how much is a fair wage for a teacher?

Last I heard, my teachers in Manhattan were pushing $80,000 to $100,000 dollars per year during the protest. That's almost more than a doctor's salary!!

First, that's not "almost more than a doctor's salary" unless you're talking about someone who's just out of med school. Second, I don't see what your point is. Just because some teachers have unrealistic expecatiations (remember that term?) about their salary is no argument against higher education.

Accepted, I'm not too sure. In fact, I know someone who graduated at one of east Asia's top university, came to USA for a better salary, and was told "we're sorry, we only accept degrees in United States and Europe, anywhere else we may not be able to obtain credential from, will not be accepted."

This goes for Japan, Hong Kong, etcetc. Many top graduates there that move to USA are unable to find a job because their degrees are useless here.

I'm not arguing that ALL degrees are accepted worldwide, I'm saying that degrees from a major U.S. university will be accepted in most foreign countries.

Not to insult your friend, but most smart international students who want to work in the U.S. will do their graduate work at an American institution so they don't run the risk of their undergrad degree not being accepted. US graduate schools accept TONS of foreign students.

I could be wrong but maybe it's the other way around. That means you have to graduate in Harvard or MIT in order to be accepted for a work in China or Korea?

I'm not too sure I want to do that when US work pay much more.

Again I don't see what your point is exactly. If you graduate from Harvard or MIT and want to work in the US, I'm sure you'll have little problem finding a job there. If you want to work in China or Korea for some reason, I bet they'd be willing to accept your degree too.

 

[sifer]

For the above post...

Teacher's average salary -

$46,752

Quoted from http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/06/24/teacher.salaries.ap/ .

Teacher's average salary in Ohio -

$40,000 - $49,999

Quoted from http://www.osba.org/lrelatns/salary/average.htm .

 

[sifer]

Originally posted by Interpol
Just because some teachers have unrealistic expecatiations (remember that term?) about their salary is no argument against higher education.
That's very true, I guess most teachers have unrealistic expectations then.

Not to insult your friend, but most smart international students who want to work in the U.S. will do their graduate work at an American institution so they don't run the risk of their undergrad degree not being accepted. US graduate schools accept TONS of foreign students.
It's not just a friend, rather, it's a family member of mine. Also, I have many who graduate there and are unable to find a job here. They go to work that they could find with a GED.

Goes to show that Asians aren't necessarily smarter than the Westerns.

If you want to work in China or Korea for some reason, I bet they'd be willing to accept your degree too.
Yea you're just saying what I said. They are, but Asian degrees don't count here in US.

If you don't understand my point, my point is simple then, don't waste your time and pursue what you love. If what you love requires an education in school, then by all means, go for it.

The OP spoke of being a bit appreciative about college, but I felt it was necessary to let him know that it is not a "NEED or you'll die" kind of thing.

My point is that, as you have said, money isn't everything, what you love is more important than all the money you can have in the world.

My point is that don't let a couple of degrees be an albatross to what you want to do and love to do.