Morals vs Penis: a sticking point

[OnTheWayUp]

I don't know how I do it. The girls that seem to dig me the most are almost always the ones with boyfriends... both long and short distance. I had a pretty rough (although highly formative) experience with a girl who had a LDR almost a year ago now which led me to this site. Seeing as I'm still a virgin, I'm so tempted to make a move on one of these girls. I say "these girls;" 7 come to mind very quickly. I went to bed early last night, but woke up to notice that I had received a text from one of the girls in question at around 2am:


(For the sake of context, this girl plays guitar in one of the bands I play in/ direct, and this text was sent in response to my negging her about not clubbing enough. The same girl has asked me to go for a drink twice after band practice. Both times I was legitimately busy with other friends/ dating another girl. She also asked me a couple of times whether I was going to a student party with some mutual friends which is renowned as a sex-fest. Again, I was busy with another date, so I couldn't make it.)

"What? That's what you think. You are smug. You'd better think of something fast to make your guitarist happy again. "


Given the context I outlined above, and given the principle taught on here that you can safely take any text sent to you by a girl after 22:00 as a cue that she's into you, I think it's fair to say I could hit this if I wanted to. I am 100% certain that I could get a make out at the absolute minimum.

This is just one isolated example from one of these girls with bfs. I tend to get this sort of flirty banter from them most times I see them. With some of them, they've always been flirty with me; with others, it took maybe 2-6 conversations at band practices/ social events.

As I say, all this has made me rethink the issue of intentionally trying to seduce girls with bfs. Here's how I weigh it up:


HIT IT:

-Girls with bfs seem more into me than girls without. Easier for me if their IL is higher.
-I'm a virgin, and would like to lose the v-card asap.
-It's up to the girl to protect her relationship, not me.
-It's not like the girl is married or has kids with her bf. The girls I'm thinking of range from 19-23. This is the time for fun, not serious LTRs.
-I'll regret it if I don't at least try to seduce girls who show interest.


LEAVE WELL ALONE:

-Morals of seducing a taken girl.
-Possible fallout from white knights and mutual female friends if the seduction goes wrong.
-Other girls are interested in me. Eg I have two dates with girls who (as far as I know) are single coming up in the next few days.
-These girls are just AWs who are digging the fact I give them attention and would never sleep with me.



I honestly have no idea how to proceed.

 

[Warrior74]

-Other girls are interested in me. Eg I have two dates with girls who (as far as I know) are single coming up in the next few days.

You know what to do. Don't take what you think is the easy road because of fear.

 

[OnTheWayUp]

You know what to do. Don't take what you think is the easy road because of fear.

Thanks for the reply, man. It would be great if you could elaborate a bit more. I really don't know what to do though; my experiences with girls over the last year plus this site have shown me conclusively that thinking about things like this solely in terms of "what society thinks is the right thing to do" is the path to AFC-dom. Then again, isn't a DJ supposed to respect everyone?- stealing someone else's gf is a pretty low thing to do to another guy, even if I don't know him. Man, I'm so confused.

 

[1337]

you gotta remember girls of the age range you listed are int he " I have a boyfriend but im looking for someone better" mode. If you are to proceed, its only to get your pipe wet, nothing more, don't get attached just a pump and dump. Its doomsday if you take them up on a relationship.

you gotta remember those type of AWs with bfs are huge c0ckteases so don't even take them literal or serious or waste precious time.

 

[OnTheWayUp]

you gotta remember girls of the age range you listed are int he " I have a boyfriend but im looking for someone better" mode. If you are to proceed, its only to get your pipe wet, nothing more, don't get attached just a pump and dump. Its doomsday if you take them up on a relationship.

you gotta remember those type of AWs with bfs are huge c0ckteases so don't even take them literal or serious or waste precious time.

Completely agree. For the sake of clarity, I would never get into a relationship with a girl who cheated on her bf with me. My experience with a taken girl last March-October taught me that much. If I did go ahead with one or more of these girls, it would be a hit and quit affair. I dunno whether I should though... this is such a 50/50 issue for me.

 

[Jariel]

Girls are not sweet and innocent beings who need us men to make their moral decisions for them. I have missed out on many experiences with some hot girls because I went the moral route.

Like you, I've always had a lot of interest from girls with boyfriends. I used to wait for them to end their relationships before I got involved and some of them did, but that's when it gets really complicated. Trust me, it's much better to bang her while she's in the relationship and treat it as a casual affair, than to get in the middle of her emotional, post break up sh1t.

Anyway, the reasons you gave for Hitting it speak for themselves. Once you start taking this route, getting laid is easy.

 

[Huffman]

I agree with Jariel!

A woman is not some helpless being who can't resist you. If she has sex with you and has a BF then she didn't mind it happening! In this western world and age, it is her call, and her fault.

You're just a single guy trying to get some. It is SUPER EASY for girls to reject you, or at least to resist at the last minute so she can preserve some of her dignity. If she doesn't, then it's not your problem. She is fully aware and responsible for what she does. Not your fault.

That makes it easy for you. Never worry, always go for it. Know that only slvts will give it up - I just feel sorry for the Boyfriends...

 

[Warrior74]

Thanks for the reply, man. It would be great if you could elaborate a bit more. I really don't know what to do though; my experiences with girls over the last year plus this site have shown me conclusively that thinking about things like this solely in terms of "what society thinks is the right thing to do" is the path to AFC-dom. Then again, isn't a DJ supposed to respect everyone?- stealing someone else's gf is a pretty low thing to do to another guy, even if I don't know him. Man, I'm so confused.

Taken women are easy. Some just want a fling. Some want to audition you. Some just want attention. But if you have single women you can date, date them. You have options, so go with the option that works for you with the least amount of BS and mental anguish. I won't get all moral on you, but you obviously have your doubts about it if you are posting about it. If that's the case, stay out of things you aren't ready to see through to the end. Dating chics with boyfriends can get very messy if you aren't ready for it.

Who cares what society says. If society says its bad or wrong to date taken women, that doesn't mean you're a slave to society because you choose not to date taken women for your own reasons. If all of these guys tell you to go for it, it doesn't make you less if you don't. Do what's right for you.

What are you afraid of when it comes to the single girls?

 

[OnTheWayUp]

Thanks for the replies, people- this is developing into a very interesting thread.

I think Jariel and Huffman make a very good point that women are not the innocent beings that they often claim to be. Any successful seduction therefore involves a degree of compliance on her part, boyfriend or not. It takes two to tango. Logically, this means that she should not be blameless if she cheats on her bf. Alcohol is not an excuse.

However, we live in a world where very few people approach these sorts of issues with a level head. Even if a cheating girl SHOULD take a lot of the blame for cheating on her bf, we on SS know that a large majority of her male and almost all of her female friends would take her side over that of a guy she cheated with. This makes intentionally getting a girl to cheat with you a risky business- regardless of how you personally see the morality of the whole thing.

I also can't get over the fact that stealing someone else's gf is such a low thing to do to another guy, even if taken girls are easier. If I had a gf and another guy did that to me, I would be pretty damn angry.

@ Warrior74: Just to clarify what I said in the original post, I never said I would stop dating single girls if I start hitting on taken ones. If I go through with this, one of my main motivations will be keeping my list of options as long as possible, to include both single and taken girls who given me IOIs.

Your use of the phrase "dating taking women" gives me a thought. I'm not sure I would ever actively "date" a girl with a bf in the sense of arranging in advance to take her to a bar alone (my standard date). I think when I mean hitting up taken girls, I would literally be doing this for the easy sex and nothing else. That is to say, I would respond to booty call texts like the one mentioned in the OP I got a couple of nights back. I would isolate and seduce taken girls if the opportunity presented itself at parties or after band practice. With taken girls, everything would happen on a strictly ad hoc basis.

I don't really feel I'm afraid of single girls as such. The part of me that wants the taken girls just keeps thinking that it's the path of least resistance to getting what I want- ie sex- even if there are consequences to be faced afterwards.

This really is a difficult one.

 

[Jariel]

I also can't get over the fact that stealing someone else's gf is such a low thing to do to another guy, even if taken girls are easier. If I had a gf and another guy did that to me, I would be pretty damn angry.

But in this case, the girl is the one to blame. When taken girls have come on to me, they always tell me how their boyfriends are abusive cheats, or how there is no love in their relationship. Most of the time (as I've often found out) it's all lies, but these girls will do what they can to justify cheating or to ease the guilt of the guy they're hitting on.

The lesson here is that this girl has the potential to cheat. If it's not with you, it will be with someone else. Either way she's going to betray her bf, but in one scenario you get to fvck her, in the other you get to hear about some other guy she fvcked.

It's a cynical perspective I guess, but sometimes you have to be a little selfish to get what you want.

 

[powpow]

if this girls boyfriend is your friend, then do not hit it.

if you dont know him, then absolutely hit it. youre actually doing him　a favor. if this girl accepts your **** in her, then shes not good girlfriend material. just pound it out man. dont think about it. just do it.

you said shes a guitarist in a band you manage. if you think its gonna mess up your cashflow, its not worth it. you>bros>cash>sluts>the rest of life

 

[SharinganUser]

She's the one cheating on her boyfriend. What is the moral dilema?

I've said it many times if a woman is not attracted to you, she has a boyfriend. If a woman is attracted to you, she doesn't have a boyfriend. Regaurdless of what the truth may be.

 

[OnTheWayUp]

if this girls boyfriend is your friend, then do not hit it.

if you dont know him, then absolutely hit it. youre actually doing him　a favor. if this girl accepts your **** in her, then shes not good girlfriend material. just pound it out man. dont think about it. just do it.

you said shes a guitarist in a band you manage. if you think its gonna mess up your cashflow, its not worth it. you>bros>cash>sluts>the rest of life

Agreed, this goes without saying. If I were to hit on a taken girl, it would not be on a girl who's going out with one of my friends. That removes 2 of the 7 girls I had in mind when writing the post.

As for the girl I used as an example in the OP, whose bf I btw do not know, I have no financial dependence on her or the success of that band at all. I'm a uni student who plays in 3 bands for fun; it just happens to be the case that I formed the particular band that we play in together with a friend of mine and I choose/ write the music and organise weekly practices.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I also can't get over the fact that stealing someone else's gf is such a low thing to do to another guy, even if taken girls are easier. If I had a gf and another guy did that to me, I would be pretty damn angry.

Think of it this way, like my Uncle Mack used to say, "you cain't lose whatcha aint nevah had." This girl's BF never had her to begin with.

I always find it infinitely entertaining that it's virgins who so often talk themselves out of sex based on moral grounds, and then lament being virgins. Your reservations about hooking up with this girl stem from the misguided belief that women (and particularly your age) have the capacity to remain faithful to a guy so long as he's playing by the rules. You need to push past that. The only rule women abide by is their own hypergamy; always date up. If she's displaying IOIs to you and she's got a BF, you're the next big thing.

The guy she's with probably thinks exactly as you do - if he remains faithful and plays by all the monogamy rules she'll appreciate him all the more for "not-being-like-other-guys". He thinks she'll have some romantic epiphany and ƒuck him vigorously in her undying gratitude for being such a good sport. Yet, here she is, giving you IOIs and hitting you up for drinks. What does that tell you? Is she some duplicitous slut looking for strange on the side? No, she's simply following her hypergamous nature like every other woman.

My advice is to get after it with her, and then move on after 2 or 3 times. That probably sounds foreign to you since it goes against your well-conditioned moralistic sense of monogamy, but you need to do so in order to open your eyes fully. You wont have an understanding of women until you've experienced them and know what their prompts are.

 

[OnTheWayUp]

My advice is to get after it with her, and then move on after 2 or 3 times. That probably sounds foreign to you since it goes against your well-conditioned moralistic sense of monogamy, but you need to do so in order to open your eyes fully. You wont have an understanding of women until you've experienced them and know what their prompts are.

Very interesting reply, RT. The point about hypergamy is something I've read about before on Roissy.

Your plan of action (quoted above) is exactly what I told myself I would do last March with a girl who was blatantly into me but had a bf. I got with her several times between March and October, even if we never passed 2nd base because of my utter lack of knowledge of things like LTR at that time, and there is no doubt that it was a very enlightening experience for me on a personal level. She was the first girl I ever made out with.

However, it screwed with my head. I was obessed with that girl; it was the kind of oneitis that I imagine most of the people on SS have experienced once and never want to experience again. I thought about how I would get with her non-stop, to the point where it affected my work. The whole affair also led to me losing a good friend, who, being a well-intentioned white knight, sided with said girl after she had turned against me and told some mutual friends what had happened.

I'm not saying that I will necessarily fall into such a oneitis mode of thinking again. On the contrary, my discovery of game and my relatively intense dating schedule (normally at least one date a week since October) mean that I'm coming at all this from an abundance mentality. But you posters who've told me to go for it: you guys should know that getting with someone else's girl is a tough thing for me to stomach based on what happened to me last year. The question remains as to whether I should bite the bullet (or they bite mine, lol ) and go for a taken girl again, armed now with an infinitely better knowledge of women and more experience (made out with 2 more girls since October, did oral with one of them).

To the guys telling me to hit it: how many of you have done this yourselves? Any personal stories you can relate to the topic?

 

[Warrior74]

Thanks for the replies, people- this is developing into a very interesting thread.

I think Jariel and Huffman make a very good point that women are not the innocent beings that they often claim to be. Any successful seduction therefore involves a degree of compliance on her part, boyfriend or not. It takes two to tango. Logically, this means that she should not be blameless if she cheats on her bf. Alcohol is not an excuse.

However, we live in a world where very few people approach these sorts of issues with a level head. Even if a cheating girl SHOULD take a lot of the blame for cheating on her bf, we on SS know that a large majority of her male and almost all of her female friends would take her side over that of a guy she cheated with. This makes intentionally getting a girl to cheat with you a risky business- regardless of how you personally see the morality of the whole thing.

I also can't get over the fact that stealing someone else's gf is such a low thing to do to another guy, even if taken girls are easier. If I had a gf and another guy did that to me, I would be pretty damn angry.

@ Warrior74: Just to clarify what I said in the original post, I never said I would stop dating single girls if I start hitting on taken ones. If I go through with this, one of my main motivations will be keeping my list of options as long as possible, to include both single and taken girls who given me IOIs.

Your use of the phrase "dating taking women" gives me a thought. I'm not sure I would ever actively "date" a girl with a bf in the sense of arranging in advance to take her to a bar alone (my standard date). I think when I mean hitting up taken girls, I would literally be doing this for the easy sex and nothing else. That is to say, I would respond to booty call texts like the one mentioned in the OP I got a couple of nights back. I would isolate and seduce taken girls if the opportunity presented itself at parties or after band practice. With taken girls, everything would happen on a strictly ad hoc basis.

I don't really feel I'm afraid of single girls as such. The part of me that wants the taken girls just keeps thinking that it's the path of least resistance to getting what I want- ie sex- even if there are consequences to be faced afterwards.

This really is a difficult one.

So let me get this straight. In your world, having sex with a taken woman is more honorable than dating her? Interesting.

As for wanting sex. There are always consequences both with single and taken women.

 

[OnTheWayUp]

So let me get this straight. In your world, having sex with a taken woman is more honorable than dating her? Interesting.

Haha, thought someone might take me up on that one. The reason why I'd be less inclined to date taken women than sleep with them is this. It has nothing to do with honour. Some of you have already correctly said that most of the taken girls who are hitting on me are AWs. This being the case, there is no need to go through any formal dating process, as they get enough attention from me already. When I hit on my oneitis last year, taking her out for a drink achieved nothing. Leading her back to my room when she was drunk was enough. There was more plausible deniability for her that way as well, as she was able to claim that she was blameless because she was drunk.

I also feel that part of dating someone is looking for IOIs and getting to know the person with a view to seeing if there might be anything other than immediate sexual attraction. I know these girls are into me already; I've been on enough dates and read enough about IOIs and body language to know that much. Plus, as I've already said, I have no interest in making any of these girls into gfs. So there seems to be no point in dating them if I am going to go down this route.

 

[scrouds]

He'll get attached and get his heart broken. And will learn from it. Find me a man who hasn't gotten his heart broken. We all learn the same way.

In the end, the only regrets I've had have been the times when I didn't do something, never for times when I did.

 

[OnTheWayUp]

You're probably right, scrouds, lol. It remains to be seen whether the girl is someone else's gf or exclusive with me.

As an aside, those of you who've followed this thread may be amused to read that the girl I used as an example of one of these AW taken girls just sent me a message on FB. She knows I'm playing in a gig this weekend (both Saturday and Sunday night, it's gonna be epic), got invited to the FB event, and wanted to let me know that she was coming on Saturday. I could so go there... if I want to.

 

[OnTheWayUp]

Okay, so the general consensus seems to be in favour of hooking up with one of these taken girls, with the following caveats:


1) I don't take her seriously as a gf and do it for the sex and nothing else. I drop her after 2-3 sessions so as not to get attached.

2) I don't hit on girls who are going out with my friends.

3) I don't "date" these taken girls in the sense of organising to hang out with them in advance. But I go for it if an opportunity presents itself at a party/ social event/ gig/ in a booty call style text.

4) I continue to date other single girls.

5) I avoid oneitis thoughts at all cost.



I can't say I'm 100% comfortable with the idea of doing this. But I respect quite a few of the long-standing posters who are encouraging me to take this route, so I'm going to jump out of my comfort zone and give it a go. After all, dropping the "nice guy who befriends women in a respectful way" in me 6 months ago was a massive step out of my comfort zone, and that led to me getting more action than I've ever got before. Wish me luck.... I'll keep you all posted.