Modern marriage doesn't work...what is the alternative?

[Matt Rogers]

Some interesting thoughts I had not considered.

When I think about marriage I think about mediterranean or latin cultures where family is the centre of the community and no-one really feels lonely because always the family is there and even when you are old your children will look after you.

But the West isn't really like that. Most marriages end in divorce. Children are selfish and rarely visit their parents when they are old. Even the marriages that do "work" are usually a sham with parents arguing all the time and staying together "for the children".

Yes as DJ's we have the skills and knowledge to make a better match than the average guy. But can even we fight the societal forces which devalue marriage and corrupt women?

I think it is a usual fear that we will grow old alone and that is what really scares me and why marriage one day will seem appealing.

But perhaps there will be more social opportunities than I imagine when Im old and I will be able to have relationships even as a 60 or 70 year old without having to commit to marriage.

Certainly as a man that sounds much more appealing than giving up my freedom and making myself financially liable

 

[Colossus]

But the West isn't really like that. Most marriages end in divorce. Children are selfish and rarely visit their parents when they are old. Even the marriages that do "work" are usually a sham with parents arguing all the time and staying together "for the children".

You bring up a good point. I think it's easy for us to look around and assume that the state of our own cultural environment is synonymous with the state of the rest of the world. Not so.

American culture is a very selfish, independent culture compared to some of the older societies in the world. We are so focused on individuality here that we are also some of the loneliest people--collectively--in the civilized world. People don't truly look after each other here, we look after ourselves. In part I think this is because of necessity, and in part it's because we have so many pleasures and material things at our fingertips that we are always thinking of what we want next.

Personally I think America is in the midst of some very dramatic social and political changes that will transpire over the next 50 years. We have become too complicated, too costly, and too self-centered. The rest of the world is watching as we trip over our own fat bellies and material lust, all the while screaming for the government to fix everything!!! But that's another topic.

I think the short answer to the marriage conundrum is that you cant change the game---the way things are. You CAN change the way you play, and that's what SoSuave is all about.

 

[MatureDJ]

The problem with the total anti-marriage stance is that it isnt time-proof. I think if you have the right mindset and focus, not marrying can serve a man well into his 40's. But who wants to spend his old age alone? You think you'll be pulling chicks when you're 65?

You'll always be able to pull chicks who are younger than your wife would be. The reason is that the sexual market value of a woman decreases at the rate of about twice that of a man (think of the Moslem rule.) When you are married, you wife is aging at the same rate as you.

Heck, pulling old chicks is the easiest thing to do, since you'd be dating the women who drove their husbands to a heart attack.

 

[grinder]

I've read the nomarriage.com thread and I agree with the sentiments. Modern marriage in a western society has little to recommend it. With a one in two divorce rate men face the prospect of alienation from their children and financial ruin. Even the marriages that do "work" usually involve some degree of women controlling men and henpecking them to death.

But what is the alternative?

Yes a man who looks after his health can find single, attractive women to date well into his 40s. And if he so chooses he can have a series of long term relationships (like Clooney!) staying with a girl until she demands a ring.

But after that is gets difficult. The pool of available women dries up and you find you have less and less in common with 20 somethings who just want to party all the time. Above that age group you just have married women, divorcees, single mothers and scarce few single, attractive women.

If you do not have children who will look after you in old age and in sickness?
Who will visit you when you are old and grey?

While playing the field is very attractive while you are still young and pumping with testosterone, eventually I imagine most men want to settle down and have someone to come home to, cook for them, and share their life with.

For this reason I understand why so many people despite the risks still choose to get married....they want companionship, someone to grow old with and yes children.

But as modern marriage is so flawed what alternative is there?

I plan on having my staff look after me in my old age. They will do it well because I will pay them well.

Successful men do not worry about their old age.

I'm only partially kidding. I have 4 kids and, yes, my older two are grown and a bit selfish, but I don't want them to worry about the details of my care.

Back to the OP: To me, all things are temporary, especially marriage. Certainly those who espouse marriage, even the DJ's, don't really believe in the "happily ever after" BS Cinderella story, do they?

You guys are talking about marriage like it is forever. Sorry bubs, it aint. I've had two. One for just 2 years and another for 20. The second one was actually quite good until she self-destructed and I divorced her and took the kids. I won everything due to planning and a good lawyer.

As for being "old" having kids: I'm not a professional athlete but I take care of myself and I regularly beat high school and college kids in my sport. Without giving away too much personal info, last year I would have been 3rd on my college alma mater's team had I enrolled (for vanity's sake I actually considered it).

So, I see marriage is "a thing to do", like on a to-do list. It's the 600 pound gorilla in the living room. Face it. You do indeed have time to experience this marriage thing and get it out of your system.

But, again back to the OP: What's next? I'm 50 and dated a ton in the last few years. I have dated 20's but they are beyond temporary, they are just moments of fun. Yes they really will date you at this age but you become the butt of some jokes and I have endured MANY a waitress asking if "dad" is paying. This is an ongoing joke with my friends. So, absolutely nobody takes you seriously when you are out with a 28yo. It only matters if you mistakenly believe this could be some kind of LTR.

The closest matches for me are in the upper thirty range but as stated, finding quality there is difficult. I've found it harder to get dates with cagey 38yo's than 28 yo's. And then when I do find one in that range they immediately are sizing you up for a LTR. Especially if they have a kid. They are motivated by resource needs as much as emotional needs.

But I am working my plan and simply sorting through them looking for some good ones. I have not run into a really good one yet, but I'm only up to about 14 so far. I believe the good one's are about 1 to 100. So I'll keep sifting. The search, the journey is fun though and I am learning a lot and having a lot of fun.

My answer to the original question of "What is a suitable alternative for marriage?" is not that complicated. My opinion is the law should NEVER EVER EVER NEVER be involved in marriage. But you can still be committed to each other and have a meaningful bond. Some noted kids need the same name: tards, just legally change it to whatthehellever you want. Feel like you need some kind of certificate: make your own. Want a "ceremony". Make your own up and make it meaningful. YO, exert you power and creativity. You are free to do as you wish, you control and are ultimately responsible for ALL aspects of your relationships.

 

[jophil28]

I was chatting to a 40 something divorced femme last week at a dinner party. We were getting along just fine -she chatted energetically and she did the dilated pupils and some light kino -You all know how that goes when she has had a few glasses of vino.
Anyway, the subject turned to a general discussion of " getting into marriage again". The other attendees at the table quickly locked their radar onto our convo...We were discussing how men and woman attempt to resolve differences in their marriages or LTRs.

I said," ..often times women have somehow acquired unrealistic expectations of what marriage will bring them.."

She, with furrowed brow, " How so ?"

I replied," Let me ask you a question. When a couple are negotiating their different wants, wishes and needs and ideas, do you believe that women are only entitled to having things resolve themselves in her favor 50 % of the time. No more ?"

She, "Well that all depends. Many times the woman is better at..." (No way was she going to accept equality )

Me, " So you believe that a woman has some kind of right to have herr own way more than her man does.. why ?"

BY now the women were nodding and the men were sitting with bowed heads silently hoping that I would just shut the f*ck up.

She then offered some lame reasons why women 'should" be given their way.

Me," So you women believe that your wishes and wants are superior to a man's and should be given more weight and value .. WHY ??"

Chick Blab then broke out, and their POVS then deteriorated into accusation of male chauvinism, controlling males, and all the usual shaming tactics that women use when they are losing ground. Not one other man at the table spoke on behalf of men.

MY favorite conjob of the night came from an obviously brainwashed feminist who said, " So you would go out of your way to stifle your wife's wishes, That is not what a loving man would do. Don't you want her to be happy ?"

I just smirked at her and slowly shook my head in obvious disapproval of her blatant manipulation. However, I do not think that she understood that I was wise to her attempt at shaming. Women are not the sharpest tools in the shed sometimes.

 

[KarmaSutra]

Me? I date - either a bit younger or with a younger attitude. And certainly I don't date anyone looking for their next ex-husband. If I ever get married again, it will be on my terms, not because I need any of the things listed above.

This is the perpetual thought-form I hold when I'm looking into my future. I truly believe marriage for the Mature Man can be construed as purely supplicative if that Mature Man doesn't keep his well being, both financially and physically, in focus and importance when contemplating " 'til death do us part".

I will never be married again. I know this because it's something I've already reconciled and dealt with. I've weighed the pro's and con's and it's not even close to being balanced. The demand for us Mature Men is so great we have the power to appreciate and exercise all of those options without recourse from women who want to accomplish their own Disney-esque agenda.

 

[The Asian Lover]

I spent 3 weeks in Europe. During my trip I met many couples that have been married 20-50 years.

All the American, Australian, English men were completely broken by their wives. Unhappy. The American women were especially the worst, the most vile of women.

During a dinner conversation, I was talking to a well off gentleman about gold diggers. I said that if you are in a "relationship" with a gold digger, you should pursue other women while you are with her, since she is only using you. Another couple dined with us, a nice guy engineer and his wife. She told me I was a terrible man and I treat women without any respect. Since she was an obvious gold digger herself, I chuckled.

If you live in the America, the chances of finding a decent woman to marry is nil. Which is a shame because lately I would like to have a child.

Too bad I wasn't born in Italy...

 

[jophil28]

All the American, Australian, English men were completely broken by their wives. Unhappy. The American women were especially the worst, the most vile of women. ...

The creation of a whipped male is a two handed game. She badgers , nags and manipulates, and he caves in to avoid confrontation. Each party plays an EQUALLY significant part in the process.

IF there is such a thing as "the Matrix" ,then it needs to be micro-managed and crushed and defeated in your own relationship first.

 

[The Asian Lover]

The creation of a whipped male is a two handed game. She badgers , nags and manipulates, and he caves in to avoid confrontation. Each party plays an EQUALLY significant part in the process.

IF there is such a thing as "the Matrix" ,then it needs to be micro-managed and crushed and defeated in your own relationship first.

I disagree and agree, society places major sanctions on a man that confronts a woman. For example, I was on a coffee date with a girl. She was nervously playing with her pen, I placed my hand on hers to calm her down. She freaked out and went on some feminist rant.

A confrontation with her would have been pointless. I got banned from an online dating site before and I had no desire to get banned again. I walked away.

Weak men do contribute to the deterioration of the modern male. However, I do not place the blame on them. A weak man with a burning desire can grow into a strong man. He must be taught, since we are the generation without real men as fathers.

The game is rigged against us. We must do our best to develop our skills and play the game as best as we can. We must help each other grow.

We must play women and use their manipulation against them. A chess game.

 

[jophil28]

I disagree and agree, society places major sanctions on a man that confronts a woman. For example, I was on a coffee date with a girl. She was nervously playing with her pen, I placed my hand on hers to calm her down. She freaked out and went on some feminist rant.

A confrontation with her would have been pointless.
.

I said in my previous post that we need to manage the power in our "relationships" . Casual dating needs a willingness to pull Eject rather than negotiation or power management.
Your fidgetty date did not deserve to be "confronted" she deserved to be abandoned on the spot as payment for the rant. I would have politely excused myself ,paid the check and walked out.
Being afraid of upsetting a woman or agonizing about what 'might' happen if you assert yourself is unmanly and feeds into the larger problem.
'Society' does not follow me around and keep a record of what I say to woman and how I say it.

 

[Jitterbug]

Hate to spoil your foreign wife dream, guys, but from I know about Asian countries (was born there, still have plenty of family in a few Asian countries), the women (and the law, culture etc.) are being ruined by feminist crap at an alarming rate. The new generations are just as bad as what the Western world have been producing.

Don't think it's much different in Latin America and Eastern Europe either. American culture spreads far & wide, invades every country and is a very formidable force.

 

[The Asian Lover]

Jophil: Again, you're blaming the man. If the man had guidance, he wouldn't take that crap from his woman. Yes, I've noticed a good percentage of guys that are beyond help and will never develop a backbone, but there are a lot of MEN with potential. All they need is a little help.

And we are in this situation because of society.

Jitterbug: Italy, the last bastion of the masculine man. Good thing they despise American culture

 

[jophil28]

Jophil: Again, you're blaming the man. If the man had guidance, he wouldn't take that crap from his woman. Yes, I've noticed a good percentage of guys that are beyond help and will never develop a backbone, but there are a lot of MEN with potential. All they need is a little help.

And we are in this situation because of society.

" Blaming the man.."? IF you read my previous post I said that men who were whipped played an equal part in creating his own slavery..
Secondly, apart from a few isolated places like this forum, who is going to "help" those men who have potential.
Most of their male "friends" will betray an assertive masculine man who makes a woman uncomfortable. I witnessed a perfect example of the weakness of modern men a few nights ago at a dinner party . I found myself debating with a bunch of middle-aged woman who practically shouted me down and ALL their limp d1ck husbands sat in silence. NOt one of those guys had the balls to stand up for what I was saying even though the looks on their faces said they they agreed with me BUT at the same time just wanted me to shut up.

WE are not in this situation entirely because of "society" .
Certainly there is a powerful push by liberal women and their mangina supporters to assume dominance, but this movement cannot succeed unless men cave in, one man at a time.

 

[puma183]

My thoughts on Loneliness in Old Age:

i) A bad marriage can be the loneliest of instutions.
ii) Our mental schemas of dutiful grandmas taking care of senile grandpas is outdated. Our ancestors behaved in this way because the laws & norms gave them no other choice. Do you think your 70 year old wife will want to change your bedpan, when she can just as easily "cash out" on you, and enjoy her Golden Years playing bingo, doing poolaerobics, and perpetual old-girls-nights-outs with her lady friends in Florida? (paid by your life-savings and lifetime alimony).
iii) Children are the real key here. The antidote to not being alone and left behind when you are old&grey is not an ex/current wife, but having had children who now have some degree of loyalty toward you and stay involved with you.
iv) There is no such thing as sexual-loneliness for an in-shape (physically and financially) older male. As others have pointed out, the demographics are greatly in the single older guy's favor.

The key to beating the system is somehow siring & raising loyal children, without allowing marriage/divorce-laws to turn you into a spent force or a ruined man in your older years.

 

[Heynow999]

Back to the OP,

I am married with 2 kids and a very dissapointing sex life. All my wifes time is spent on the kids. From my experiance, I would think a French type lifestyle would suit me. If I could have an affair on the side it would suit me fine. The wife wouldn't care.