Might have a sticky situation on the horizon(long)...mature and serious input welcome

[MacAvoy]

One problem with your post Wyldfire was trying to follow who was who. You shouldn't have been referring to your daughters dad as that in the beginning as he wasn't your father's dad at that point in the story.

As it went on, I had a hard time of separating who was who, who is your ex-husband, who is your fiance, who is your daughters father. Who are your other kids dad.

Next time introduce fake names or man1 manB etc...

 

[Wyldfire]

One problem with your post Wyldfire was trying to follow who was who. You shouldn't have been referring to your daughters dad as that in the beginning as he wasn't your father's dad at that point in the story.

As it went on, I had a hard time of separating who was who, who is your ex-husband, who is your fiance, who is your daughters father. Who are your other kids dad.

Next time introduce fake names or man1 manB etc...

I'll go see if I can edit it to be more clear.

On Edit...I changed my daughter's father to DF. He and I have one child who is 7 years old. My fiance and I did not have any children together. He died. I was only married one time to the father of my 3 older children (21, 18 and 16). The only significant person other than DF would be my fiance and only because I was with him for many years and DF tried to get with me during that time, unsuccessfully and I hardly even spoke to DF until after my fiance was gone.

 

[MacAvoy]

I've got alot of experience in this area as I've had many a friends who were involved in drugs or spent time incarcerated.

You mentioned that he was clean for 6 months and opted to go to jail to avoid being on probation. For me thats the first flag. If he's truly on the right path, he wouldn't volunteer to go to jail to avoid probation. He's basically saying that he can't go the next 2 years or however long his probation without getting into trouble, so instead of becoming a revolving door, getting caught for violating probation, doing a short stint, getting a little time added to his probation, getting caught again, and the cycle continues forever.

So on one hand he's smart enough to know his weakness. That he'll go serve his time now and that way not have to worry about violating his conditions. To me thats a huge flag.

But if you are going to be open to the concept first and foremost, you need groundrules and things to watch out for.

Groundrules

1. He must become a productive member of society before you agree to let anything go to the next level (you don't want him to be dependent on you)
2. He must continue to avoid his old friends.
3. He must make new friends (again you don't want him to become dependent on you)
4. His life must not evolve entirely around you and your daughter
5. You must go through the normal dating steps, you can't instantly become the brady bunch (if he lives with you, then he has his own room and you's go out on dates etc)

You do have a lot of positives going for you. Like you said, you don't have the negative history of a relationship. He did quit for 6 months before he opted to go to jail. However you've got alot of baggage to deal with so your starting the relationship "in the hole" or downhill so to speak. I've known hard core alcoholics, weed smokers, pill poppers and smashers and the most degenerate people are the ones who stick a needle in their arm.

Hopefully he wasn't doing heroine that long and didn't develop a huge addiction. I wouldn't be too worried about the coke as its a very manageable drug as long as you don't rock it up.

However I'd watch out for Red Flags

Weed: considering its the one drug that he's done for the longest, its the most dangerous. More dangerous than heroin you ask? Yes because its viewed as harmless but has proven time and time again that marijuana is a gateway drug. It leads to other drugs. The minute he talks of smoking just a joint, you have to tell him, he's out of your life.

I'll add more if I can think of it but thats a good start.

 

[grinder]

So, in short he's broke, homeless, lonely and unstable. I have to really think he's desperately looking for a "care-giver" and he is doing it under a ruse of "affection" toward his daughter and you.

What BLP says rings true (and you already know it).

Wyldfire, you seem to be a very helpful person. Helper mentality. I worked in that field for 14 years. I know that personality type dead bang cold. Not a damn thing wrong with it, except, many I have seen are one half of a toxic co-dependent relationship. They are the good half that function, have a job, get along. But, it is as if you are one half of a puzzle waiting to complete the puzzle with the bad half, and, excuse me for stretching the metaphor, but once that puzzle is put together it makes a very ugly picture.

 

[Wyldfire]

I've got alot of experience in this area as I've had many a friends who were involved in drugs or spent time incarcerated.

You mentioned that he was clean for 6 months and opted to go to jail to avoid being on probation. For me thats the first flag. If he's truly on the right path, he wouldn't volunteer to go to jail to avoid probation. He's basically saying that he can't go the next 2 years or however long his probation without getting into trouble, so instead of becoming a revolving door, getting caught for violating probation, doing a short stint, getting a little time added to his probation, getting caught again, and the cycle continues forever.

So on one hand he's smart enough to know his weakness. That he'll go serve his time now and that way not have to worry about violating his conditions. To me thats a huge flag.

But if you are going to be open to the concept first and foremost, you need groundrules and things to watch out for.

Groundrules

1. He must become a productive member of society before you agree to let anything go to the next level (you don't want him to be dependent on you)
2. He must continue to avoid his old friends.
3. He must make new friends (again you don't want him to become dependent on you)
4. His life must not evolve entirely around you and your daughter
5. You must go through the normal dating steps, you can't instantly become the brady bunch (if he lives with you, then he has his own room and you's go out on dates etc)

You do have a lot of positives going for you. Like you said, you don't have the negative history of a relationship. He did quit for 6 months before he opted to go to jail. However you've got alot of baggage to deal with so your starting the relationship "in the hole" or downhill so to speak. I've known hard core alcoholics, weed smokers, pill poppers and smashers and the most degenerate people are the ones who stick a needle in their arm.

Hopefully he wasn't doing heroine that long and didn't develop a huge addiction. I wouldn't be too worried about the coke as its a very manageable drug as long as you don't rock it up.

However I'd watch out for Red Flags

Weed: considering its the one drug that he's done for the longest, its the most dangerous. More dangerous than heroin you ask? Yes because its viewed as harmless but has proven time and time again that marijuana is a gateway drug. It leads to other drugs. The minute he talks of smoking just a joint, you have to tell him, he's out of your life.

I'll add more if I can think of it but thats a good start.

All good points...

I think wanting to get the time out of the way was a choice he made for a couple of reasons...first, the town where he lives everyone knows everyone else and it's very, very hard for anyone to quit drugs there. It's one of those towns that will swallow you whole and spit you out in chunks if you have any substance abuse issues. He was born and raised there, too. I think he would rather deal with the crap of being in jail than be stressed from conditions in that difficult of an environment as his home town. The second part is the work crew thing. The people who run it are dinks on power trips...which is why he got pissed and walked off it in the first place. He didn't have problems with the other conditions...it was the work crew thing. He hasn't done any real time...about three weeks over the warrant for walking off work crew and overnight here and there after fights. He seems to be a magnet for people who want to pick fights and he's Italian so he's stubborn and is proud. Other than that, this short stint is the only real jail time he has had and it's relatively short.

I agree about marijuana being a gateway drug. I don't do drugs, have no use for them and don't allow them in my life. He and I already had this discussion shortly after our daughter was born. I told him that there would be very few things he could do to genuinely piss me off, but exposing our child to any drug use or even having it in the same car or house as her would make me righteously pissed and he did not want to go there. He wouldn't even dream of trying to pursue anything if he weren't committed to staying off drugs because he already knows I wouldn't tolerate it in my home or life.

He wasn't in really bad shape for a very long time. A year tops, but off and on throughout that time he had tried to get away from it with minimal success...a couple of weeks up to a month here and there. This is the longest he has ever gone with absolutely nothing in his system. His mom and I discussed the possibility of needles and she said he has always really hated needles...and was freaked out by them. However, that doesn't really mean much. My best friend was terrified of needles but he went there. My best friend was the hottest mess I've ever seen with opiate and benzo addiction. When he went in for an intake he was honest and he told me that the intake worker couldn't believe everything he had done...because it included a lot of things she had never even heard of. DF's addiction didn't get anywhere near as bad as my best friend's did...so that's a plus.

I'm no pushover, which works to my advantage. While I'm kind, loyal and supportive...I can walk away even if I love someone if that's what is best for my kids and myself. I wouldn't blindly walk into something like this.

I really enjoyed and appreciate your input...thanks.

 

[MacAvoy]

The only other thing I'll add is that I've seen so many strong independent women fall for the wrong guy and turn into someone willing to take the abuse. Same thing can be said for DJ's turning into AFC's under the guise of "the one"

 

[Wyldfire]

What BLP says rings true (and you already know it).

Wyldfire, you seem to be a very helpful person. Helper mentality. I worked in that field for 14 years. I know that personality type dead bang cold. Not a damn thing wrong with it, except, many I have seen are one half of a toxic co-dependent relationship. They are the good half that function, have a job, get along. But, it is as if you are one half of a puzzle waiting to complete the puzzle with the bad half, and, excuse me for stretching the metaphor, but once that puzzle is put together it makes a very ugly picture.

You're right that I am a helpful person and have a helper mentality. (I'm currently working towards becoming a Psychologist with a 4.0 GPA) You're wrong about the co-dependency thing, though. During my marriage I was co-dependent...but I am an Al-Anon veteran and when I left my ex husband I worked through all that stuff and moved on. While I still end up befriending and helping substance abusers...I have only gotten involved with recovering addicts/alcoholics who have been active in 12 step programs. If a person truly lives by those 12 steps they are actually healthier than the average person, lol.

I understand your concern...and I would hand out the very same warnings to anyone else. Fortunately, I'm not flying blind on this...which is why I started this thread. Better to plan ahead and sort it out BEFORE I'm faced with it so I make the best decision for myself, my daughter and her father as well as my older children (who are 21, 18 and 16).

 

[Wyldfire]

The only other thing I'll add is that I've seen so many strong independent women fall for the wrong guy and turn into someone willing to take the abuse. Same thing can be said for DJ's turning into AFC's under the guise of "the one"

I put up with 10 years of abuse from my ex husband...and I can say with confidence and authority that there is absolutely no way I would ever tolerate that nonsense again. No relationship is worth sacrificing your own self-respect, dignity, self-esteem and self-determination.

Ironically, one of my classes is discussing Domestic Violence right now and I have a feminist teacher who I really don't like. In the last two classes I've argued with her quite often in class. She pushes embracing victimhood and I hate that mentality. Battered women and men need to explore why they tolerate being abused before they can get beyond it and you can't do that if you place all the blame on the abuser. I'm finding myself reminding the class to be fair to men and arguing this embracing of victimhood on a daily basis in this woman's class. She annoys me, lol.

 

[Taylormade]

No

I think you are letting your feelings for your child override you common sense. The hold the drugs had on DF will probably reappear once he is under stress after release from prison from being able to get a decent job to having to live with the history. I know you can't just move on and x-out him from your childs life but you must consider what is the best solution for you. If you live for others, that will be a sad life.

 

[Interceptor]

I think you are letting your feelings for your child override you common sense.

Whoah there, big fella...
Have you been reading her posts??!

She IS in control.
And has plenty of common sense.
I think you jumped the gun on this one.



She posted here to get some opinions and different perspectives on this situation.
She already says that she doesn't really want a relationship with the guy.
But she wants to find out what her options might be should something (wanted or unwanted) develop.

 

[Wyldfire]

I think you are letting your feelings for your child override you common sense. The hold the drugs had on DF will probably reappear once he is under stress after release from prison from being able to get a decent job to having to live with the history. I know you can't just move on and x-out him from your childs life but you must consider what is the best solution for you. If you live for others, that will be a sad life.

Actually, it's my common sense and rational thinking/logic that is leading me to plan ahead for a situation that I can foresee being faced with. Feelings really aren't the issue here. It's about what is best for my daughter. Clearly, having two parents in her life (whether they are together or not) is very important...and having them both be healthy would be nice too. This is her Dad and he most definitely needs support and encouragement to continue to stay clean. It's in my child's best interest to offer that support and encouragement. I'm going to do that regardless of what his intentions may be simply because it's the right thing to do.

I'm not seeking out a romantic relationship with DF. I actually never seek out relationships...they just kind of find me and I find it works better that way. I have a feeling that DF is going to either ask me to try to be a family or when he comes to visit our daughter in July just try to create that dynamic while he is here. What I'm doing is preparing myself for those possibilities and figure out whether I should halt any attempts immediately or just see what happens. If anything, I think things through too much...but never not enough. So far I've already been considering the things that have been mentioned by those of you offering your input. That's the whole point, really...to give me an idea of whether or not I'm covering all the bases and catching anything I may have not yet thought of.

 

[Wyldfire]

Whoah there, big fella...
Have you been reading her posts??!

She IS in control.
And has plenty of common sense.
I think you jumped the gun on this one.



She posted here to get some opinions and different perspectives on this situation.
She already says that she doesn't really want a relationship with the guy.
But she wants to find out what her options might be should something (wanted or unwanted) develop.

More or less that's it...along with the fact that I know this could be a very delicate situation for DF. Not only do I want to REALLY think it through, I also want to make sure however I handle things that I do it in a way that is not going to hurt his progress, relationship with our daughter or our parenting relationship...which is very, very good and positive.

 

[Bonhomme]

Whatever this DF's flaws may be, I get a definite sense he means well and has a good heart... which he doesn't appear to protect as well as he should. I really hope he sorts things out.

You're right to be careful not to lead him on. The balance of power here tilts way in your direction.

 

[Jay Jay]

So far all you have is a card.

I know you said that you don;t believe that you are over-anaylsing, that your gut tells you that you need to think about it.

Fair enough.

But I think you should stop thinking about it so much.

So far all you have is a card. You haven't seen this guy for a while, he's been through a lot...

I don't think you or anyone is in a position to make a call yet.

Some people go through rough patches and come out better people.

Some people go through bad patches and never recover.

Only time will tell which type DF is.

At the time being I think you owe it to your daughter to maitain a healthy relationship with him without jumping the gun.

Thinking about getting romantic with this guy is, in my opinion, is not a good idea.

In a nutshell I say don't judge yet.

keep doing what you are doing; respecting him as your daughters father and maintaining cordial relations.

See how things go and decide from there.

Good luck Wyldfire.

JJ

 

[Sinistar]

I would not ever pursue a relationship with my daughter's father, and that is not the purpose of my original post. My gut instinct is telling me that he is possibly positioning himself to try to pursue one with me and I started the thread because I wanted to get some input to consider while I am sorting out how I will handle this IF it's something I find myself faced with.

...seems to be incongruent with...

Part of me feels obligated to give it a shot if he asks.

Would you please explain to us how someone who is doing well (emotionally stable, good value systems, good family, good friends, good career, stable home, independent, etc) would ever *feel obligated to give anyone a shot* ????

Sinistar...while I appreciate you making the effort to offer input...it's clear that you either did not read the entire post or did not pay close enough attention. Her father is NOT an "ex". We never had a romantic relationship. His best friend and I were together for 8 months. Her father and I had a VERY brief fling (had sex twice using protection) after we found out that the people we were involved with had cheated on us with our respective partners. There is absolutely NO past emotional history between my daughter's father and I. We have never argued, fought or even disagreed about how to raise our daughter. We actually have always gotten along great.

...here's the thing. I did read your entire post before I first responded. My perception after reading it was: "She got a card from an 'ex' and now she's letting her mind wander as to whether to strike up a relationship with him."

Let me explain something. You can try as hard and as often as you like to change/alter the perceptions of others but in the end how were perceive something is just that. I read what you wrote and simply perceived it as a post as to whether you should strike up a relationship with this guy.

And I'll explain why I perceived it this way. First, your post was way longer than needed to say "My daughter's father sent me a card from prison, what should I do if he tries to come back to us." Next, you invested quite a bit of writing effort into to downplaying the simple fact that this dude is a drug user / criminal. And finally, I honestly believe the entire post was just a simple covert means to and end - that you are considering *hooking up* with this guy and are seeking approval (covertly). And the irony is that you are now receiving these endorsements (see Interceptor's posts along with *mild* rays of hope from a few others).

Wlydfire I stand by my original post. You asked for mature/serious input and I gave it. I've met a good number of women in my life. The ones with healthy value systems, good family backgrounds, good friendships, etc would never allow themselves to feel *obligated* no matter what role you are describing DF in. As a matter of fact, they would never allow themselves to be in this situation in the first place. And I've met my share of women who fall on the other side. Poor value systems, wacked family backgrounds, endless strings of failed relationships, co-dependency, abuse, etc, etc, etc. And one thing I've learned about the later - they just can't *see* it. So they go on self-destructing in one way or another over and over and over again.

Whether you wanted to hear it or not, I think this was some *serious mature* input that is indeed on topic with your thread. And I'll stop here so the thread can continue on the course you prefer.

ps. IMHO they are all "ex's" if you've been intimate with them. And something tells me that his being the father of your daughter puts him somewhere in this category

 

[Wyldfire]

Whatever this DF's flaws may be, I get a definite sense he means well and has a good heart... which he doesn't appear to protect as well as he should. I really hope he sorts things out.

You're right to be careful not to lead him on. The balance of power here tilts way in your direction.

Yes, I know he means well and he does have a good heart. His father and mother divorced when he was quite young and he didn't get to see his father a lot because he moved away. He has said that he doesn't want our daughter to feel the way he did when he was young. That is something I didn't put in the original post. He loves our daughter very much and she is his only child. He had tried to have a baby with an ex girlfriend before but they couldn't get pregnant. She told me this herself, as we were friends when in lived in the same town they live in. She always had good things to say about him. He was always very responsible prior to falling apart. Aside from the drugs, his only flaw that I might have a difficult time dealing with is that when he feels slighted or is hurt he is a bit of a hot head (he's Italian). He's never shown that with me, but he and his family get pissed at each other and won't speak for months after having an argument. I don't know how much of that is that they are all Italian and how much of it is his own temperament, though.

Yes, the balance of power is leaning in my direction, but that really is typical for me. I always make a point not to abuse it, though. I certainly don't want to hurt him and I want him to be as involved in our little girl's life as he wants to be. I just have to figure out how far I am willing to let things evolve between him and myself.

 

[Wyldfire]

I know you said that you don;t believe that you are over-anaylsing, that your gut tells you that you need to think about it.

Fair enough.

But I think you should stop thinking about it so much.

So far all you have is a card. You haven't seen this guy for a while, he's been through a lot...

I don't think you or anyone is in a position to make a call yet.

Some people go through rough patches and come out better people.

Some people go through bad patches and never recover.

Only time will tell which type DF is.

At the time being I think you owe it to your daughter to maitain a healthy relationship with him without jumping the gun.

Thinking about getting romantic with this guy is, in my opinion, is not a good idea.

In a nutshell I say don't judge yet.

keep doing what you are doing; respecting him as your daughters father and maintaining cordial relations.

See how things go and decide from there.

Good luck Wyldfire.

JJ

Under normal circumstances I wouldn't be thinking about it so much...but because how I respond to him right now could impact his recovery it's really better for me to plan ahead. I want to make certain that I do nothing that could contribute to making his situation worse.

 

[MacAvoy]

Sinistar, although I think you make some valid points, I think if you simply rule out hords of people for 1 detail without taking a look at the complete picture, then I think that is closed minded & immature.

Just because someone had a lapse in judgement doesn't mean that there not a good person. Now with that being said, I agree that a very large majority of criminals/drug users have severe issues and are not capable of a mature respectful relationship.

The fact is no matter what we say, Wyld is going to do what she wants, in fact she's already made up her mind that she's going to allow it to happen, the best that we can do her is to provide advice to lead the person to the right direction and provide education to help them find the answers in the future.

Most people have already made up their minds when they post here and are just looking for reassurance as you have said. Telling them simply don't do it, won't teach them anything, but giving the tools to gain the knowledge lays the groundwork for future growth.

ps . Wyld you can prevent this from growing to 15 pages by not quoting an entire page of someone and just direct your respone to each person. I think most of us are capable of reading a name and scrolling up instead of having to read 15 pages as this thread lives onl

 

[Wyldfire]

Sinistar...PART of me feels obligated to give him a chance...the parent part of me. The part who loves our child and knows how thrilled she would be to have her Daddy around every day. It's the part of me who knows I would hate it if I were not with my child every day and that her father probably doesn't like that much, either. Because I always put my children first (like any good parent should) of course part of me is going to feel obligated to give him a chance IF he asks. Something would be seriously wrong with me as a parent if I didn't feel that.

Despite that parent in me feeling that obligation...I would NEVER pursue a romantic relationship with her father. Hell, I never pursue relationships with any man...they always pursue me. I'm old fashioned like that. It's not the woman's job to pursue a man. It's a woman's job to take care of herself, look good and be a good woman and person and then men typically want to pursue her. That's just the laws of nature, afterall.

 

[Wyldfire]

Macavoy...I quote people mostly so I can see exactly what they posted and address every issue. I suppose with the really long ones I could cut the quoted part out...if I remember to do that before hitting reply.

I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. I'm basically thinking out loud right now and having a debate with myself. I am also trying to come up with ideas of how to be able to say no without messing him up if I decide that I won't give things a shot with him.

What I've figured out so far is this...I think that pretty much everyone but me would want him and I to give it a shot. I don't really have any strong reasons not to at least consider it IF he asks...but I like things just how they are. I REALLY like things how they are. The battle inside me right now is whether I give it a shot for everyone else (who I love) or whether I maintain the status quo (which I love). I'm already praying that I don't have to be faced with the choice in the first place.