Men pedestalizing other men

[LiveYourDream]

some people just appreciate mastery shown by others. Others cannot do so. It's a sad thing when you can't get past yourself, and everything just HAS to be about YOU, in some way.

I don't think anyone is advocating not appreciating the mastery in others. Smart men utilize and learn from the mastery of others. I think the concern includes when one either sacrifices or does not develop or utilize their own mastery, if their focus remains too unbalanced.

 

[Asmodeus]

Pedestalizing is not bad so long as it is not obsession and at a significant sacrifice. Even in a relationship for instance you should admire qualities about the person you are with, which is why you are with them. If you do not hold your wife/girlfriend on a higher level than most women. In a healthy relationship both parties put each other on a pedestal, a woman should respect and look up to her man and vice versa which his ideal. In fact, such a thing raises both people in a relationship and makes both better.

The problem with pedestalizing women comes at an expense, at a sacrifice that is unwarranted or foolish. When a desperate man pedestalizes a woman, and decides that he is going to debase himself and deal with her BS then that is not healthy. Or when a girl dumps a guy, she does not admire him but he admires and pedestalizes her and suffers that he is unable to be with her.

Just as with Ubercat saying that men pedestalizing me is not a bad thing. The person on the pedestal is someone who has qualities that we admire and we desire to emulate. We praise those qualities, and thus praise the person who has those qualities. For instance, I pedestalize Churchill for his leadership, Einstein for his genius, Nietzsche for his philosophy and a number of other men both past and present. They show me something to aspire to, something that man can achieve. They set the bar that I desire to reach, so that I can stand on that pedestal with them. Good qualities in a person should be praised, leaders deserve their respect, innovators and trailblazers deserve admiration. So long as the person does not become obsessed it can be a healthy and positive thing for a person.

However, if a man debases himself to pedestalize another man then it is dysfunctional. As per the situation you mentioned with the second guy. If a man admires another man so much that he puts up with unnecessary bull$hit, then it is not much different than if he admires a girl so much to put up with her BS. Certianly they are being pedestalized for different qualities (the female sexual, the man for strong traits) but the outcome is not much different.

Ultimately, and I think you hit on it @LiveYourDream , it depends on the person. If a person is insecure and dysfunctional, then they are more likely to make dysfunctional decisions. The insecure man who pedestalizes a girl at his own expense, and the insecure man who pedestalizes a man at expense to his own ego are both insecure. A secure person can place people on a pedestal, but they do not let that abase who they are.

 

[LiveYourDream]

@Asmodeus We are pretty much on the same page.

What I am questioning now is the healthy man who admires and respects and aspires to be like another, is that really still pedestalization or just healthy admiration? To me pedestalization means one is raising and another lowering. Can the healthy man simply admire and emulate while doing neither raising or lowering of either party. I would venture to say that would be the healthiest version possible.

 

[Asmodeus]

@Asmodeus We are pretty much on the same page.

What I am questioning now is the healthy man who admires and respects and aspires to be like another, is that really still pedestalization or just healthy admiration? To me pedestalization means one is raising and another lowering. Can the healthy man simply admire and emulate while doing neither raising or lowering of either party. I would venture to say that would be the healthiest version possible.

So it is then about how you define "pedestalizing"
If you define pedestalizing as simple admiration and raising someone else to a higher standard than it can be healthy as I already described.
If pedestalizing means... "Raising another while lowering yourself"... Which is how you define it then yes it is unhealthy.
You ask why it happens? But I think you already answered the question... Insecurity and weakness. Insecure and weak people are prone to irrational decisions. Insecure people also seek to relieve their own insecurity by admiring others who they see as secure in some way (good old Freudian ego defense mechanisms). However, insecure people do not have the sense about them to understand how to do it properly without expense of oneself, or in what proper proportions admiration should be dealt. Thus, the insecure person admires but not in a healthy way like the secure person does. The insecure person suffers from his own special kind of insanity...

(people on this forum seem to like to call this person call the "beta")

 

[LiveYourDream]

So it is then about how you define "pedestalizing"
If you define pedestalizing as simple admiration and raising someone else to a higher standard than it can be healthy as I already described.
If pedestalizing means... "Raising another while lowering yourself"... Which is how you define it then yes it is unhealthy.
You ask why it happens? But I think you already answered the question... Insecurity and weakness. Insecure and weak people are prone to irrational decisions. Insecure people also seek to relieve their own insecurity by admiring others who they see as secure in some way (good old Freudian ego defense mechanisms). However, insecure people do not have the sense about them to understand how to do it properly without expense of oneself, or in what proper proportions admiration should be dealt. Thus, the insecure person admires but not in a healthy way like the secure person does. The insecure person suffers from his own special kind of insanity...

(people on this forum seem to like to call this person call the "beta")

Bear with me for a little bit more please while I see if I understand this part correctly. Onto the man who seeks to be pedestalized, by other men. I perceive that his desire comes from an inherent sense of lack, that he is seeking to fill outside himself. To me, he directly or indirectly sets himself up to feed off the adoration or his pedestalization by others (through diminishing themselves to him or maybe even not.) In my observation, it's not a cycle that will never truly fulfill him, but one he will likely pursue without end.

On the other hand, I see a man who is truly healthy, already filled with self esteem and a sense of himself. I see this healthy man as confident and filled with a sense of strength. I see him as one who can appreciate the input of others whether it be compliments or criticism, but is not in need or defined by them. Thus he is not a seeker needing to be filled with adoration or his pedestalization by others. He would remain indifferent and unaffected by those who may pedestalize him anyway.

Do these characterizations align in your perception or is there a more accurate description yet still?

 

[Huffman]

No the dangers aren't the same because normal men aren't trying to fvck other men, which changes a lot. It's normal for men to respect or admire other men from time to time, but if they are just doing it to get accepted, then sure that is unhealthy.

But isn't that the definition of true AFC? A real AFC isn't clear in his intent to fvck, he desperately wants to be loved and accepted by a woman. Hell, if he was that clear he would even get laid every now and then.

So isn't it exactly the same - a desperate man in need of approval?

 

[LiveFreeX]

A user who claims to be a woman who joined just 2 years ago and now has almost as many likes as she has messages from hungry men pedestalizing her. She didn't exist in the time before the ban, last year...

I see my VERY CLEAR example of men(myself) pedestalizing trump was removed. Nobody finds this the least bit strange? In our current society, do you think men will pedestal women who offer absolutely nothing except fluff, over men who have practical experience in the field? The evidence on this forum says yes.

If you look at League of Legends for instance, men will pedestalize other men who are high achievers, work well together and very skilled. Hungry men will pedestalize any woman as is evidenced by the fact that me and my mates often call out that we are girls during a game and couch potato losers fall all over themselves to help us despite our clear shortcomings. And we don't pedestalize anyone, its called being a LEADER. But you wouldn't understand that LYD because women are supposed to be subservient to man, a fact well understood by over 85% of the Earth (excluding feminist America), perhaps this is why you and your fellow americans are confused as to the relationship between leaders and followers.

 

[phillies]

But isn't that the definition of true AFC? A real AFC isn't clear in his intent to fvck, he desperately wants to be loved and accepted by a woman. Hell, if he was that clear he would even get laid every now and then.

So isn't it exactly the same - a desperate man in need of approval?

No. Afcs want approval from women do gain access to sex. Also afcs want the woman to have sex with only him.

With dudes they're not looking to get sex or an exclusive friendship.

But sure, if they're a big insecure pvssy who basically submits to other men for acceptance, he is afc. A Mr nice guy.

But you can respect and admire someone without degrading yourself.

 

[phillies]

A user who claims to be a woman who joined just 2 years ago and now has almost as many likes as she has messages from hungry men pedestalizing her. She didn't exist in the time before the ban, last year...

I see my VERY CLEAR example of men(myself) pedestalizing trump was removed. Nobody finds this the least bit strange? In our current society, do you think men will pedestal women who offer absolutely nothing except fluff, over men who have practical experience in the field? The evidence on this forum says yes.

If you look at League of Legends for instance, men will pedestalize other men who are high achievers, work well together and very skilled. Hungry men will pedestalize any woman as is evidenced by the fact that me and my mates often call out that we are girls during a game and couch potato losers fall all over themselves to help us despite our clear shortcomings. And we don't pedestalize anyone, its called being a LEADER. But you wouldn't understand that LYD because women are supposed to be subservient to man, a fact well understood by over 85% of the Earth (excluding feminist America), perhaps this is why you and your fellow americans are confused as to the relationship between leaders and followers.

That's a good example. That men are so desperate that in that game they'll go through so much effort to help alleged women.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

That's a good example. That men are so desperate that in that game they'll go through so much effort to help alleged women.

A bunch of cons they be helping too.

 

[Colossus]

You guys are digging really deep here. Here's how I view "male pedestalizing";

Having a "man crush" from time to time is natural and not unhealthy. The best example of this is a pro athlete. I'll use MMA since I like MMA. You see a guy who is just dominating, and has some attributes you want or can relate to. Maybe he is humble and professional (think GSP in his heyday), maybe he is brash and arrogant (Conor McGregor). You like his style, he's the champ and easy to look up to. Usually it never goes beyond a simple man crush. You eventually move on.

I think men who are insecure or hyper-aware of their social weaknesses will tend to have "nuthugger syndrome"; much like the Remora fish that attaches to the shark, these types of men---unequivocally betas---benefit from the protection and locomotion of the shark, or the alpha guy they are enamored with.

In other words, their status is elevated from establishing themselves as an associate of the alpha man more so than it would be on their own. It's almost a symbiotic relationship---the man, like the shark, doesn't NEED these orbiters, but having followers isn't harming his social standing either.

Those are the 2 types of male pedestalizing. One is simple admiration, the other is insecurity and benefit-driven.

 

[guru1000]

The word "pedestal" denotes placing above. I have men that I admire and respect, but I don't pedestalize.

 

[LiveYourDream]

The word "pedestal" denotes placing above. I have men that I admire and respect, but I don't pedestalize.

Admiration and respect do not require pedestalization.

 

[LiveYourDream]

I think men who are insecure or hyper-aware of their social weaknesses will tend to have "nuthugger syndrome"; much like the Remora fish that attaches to the shark, these types of men---unequivocally betas---benefit from the protection and locomotion of the shark, or the alpha guy they are enamored with.

In other words, their status is elevated from establishing themselves as an associate of the alpha man more so than it would be on their own. It's almost a symbiotic relationship---the man, like the shark, doesn't NEED these orbiters, but having followers isn't harming his social standing either.

Your explanation is great. The insecurity and benefit-driven version of pedestalization, as you called it, is exactly what caught my attention and curiosity. What I am wondering now is, what happens to the very insecurity that drove him to pedestalize another man in the first place? Now that he has pedestalized another man, does a man then usually avoid or deny the depth of his own insecurity, because it is easier to feel elevated (falsely in my opinion) through association to the other man now? Does the pedestaliztion become a distraction or buffer from the true depth of his insecurity and thus stall his resolution of it? Can a man truly resolve the insecurity that drove him to pedestalize another man, while still doing so? I don't believe he truly can and thus the inherent danger of insecurity-driven male to male pedestaliztion, in my perception. Am I seeing that clearly and you agree or have I missed something here?

 

[yuppee]

just cause a guy is interested in a field, and admires top men in that field, does not mean that he gaf about that field himself. I can admire Tiger's mastery of golf while having ZERO desire to ever pick up a club (other than to whack some pos with one, lacking a gun).

 

[dasein]

There is an "unearned" connotation to putting on a pedestal I don't believe the thread is communicating. When a man fawns on another man because of something he accomplished or did, that's simple admiration, maybe overdone. If that man subsequently behaves badly, the admiration disappears. The pedestal would require the admiration not fade on bad behavior.

When a man fawns on a woman because he finds her sexually attractive, and almost nothing can temper or reduce that, -that's- putting on a pedestal. Her behavior doesn't really matter. Same when women are infatuated and the man finds himself in the "I could fart in her face" stage. So, I don't think the "pedestal" is nearly as applicable to straight male relationships as to male-female, female-male and gay relationships.

 

[phillies]

There is an "unearned" connotation to putting on a pedestal I don't believe the thread is communicating. When a man fawns on another man because of something he accomplished or did, that's simple admiration, maybe overdone. If that man subsequently behaves badly, the admiration disappears. The pedestal would require the admiration not fade on bad behavior.

When a man fawns on a woman because he finds her sexually attractive, and almost nothing can temper or reduce that, -that's- putting on a pedestal. Her behavior doesn't really matter. Same when women are infatuated and the man finds himself in the "I could fart in her face" stage. So, I don't think the "pedestal" is nearly as applicable to straight male relationships as to male-female, female-male and gay relationships.

Yup. Only faggots put men on a pedestal.

 

[MrWood]

just a comment. I have noticed men look at me differently, in different situations.

One. Since I stepped up my fashion game, especially at work, much more men look away or actually smile and look down. This is almost always in a submissive "i am not worthy" look/reaction. (said on other threads, I am 5'8 150lb with a gimp arm from an accident) I carry myself with authority, because inside my gimp frame I am a badass m0f0. Most of these men are under 50 and married, nearly all look and dress like 65yo.

Two: When I pass by physically larger / alpha types I do not look them in the eye or will indirectly challenge them by walking close or bumping them physically and saying "excuse me" as if they are invisible. Invariably nearly all say "hi" to me first as I walk past.

Walk with purpose, look to your destination.
that 6'2 stud dude aint sh1t... do not envy him, do not smile at him, do not look in his eye, he is not you.

 

[Tictac]

that 6'2 stud dude aint sh1t... do not envy him, do not smile at him, do not look in his eye

That you think this is even necessary speaks volumes about the depth of your insecurities.

 

[MrWood]

or that I can speak about them. Likely due to me being in a horrible accident at the age of 20 that disfigured my body to a large extent. Insecure, yep, I can admit it. It's also a big reason I have got involved with alot of HB8+ BPD women, to supplant my insecurities with a hot babe... yes sir, I have my issues.

There are men I do admire, at work even, and have told them such. Two are actually 6'2.