Men afraid to approach?

[allergictobs]

I think men have mostly given up approaching because women today have a huge amount of options and their behavior shows it. Their phone is full of men wanting to be with them. Even though they will never meet most of those men, it doesn't matter because the feeling of abundance is there.

The world has changed dramatically over the past 10-20 years:
1. The average woman today has more dating options than a super model or a celebrity did 20 years ago.
2. The average man today has almost no chance of attracting or keeping an average woman (with rare exceptions).

To be clear, I'm not blaming women for this. Our mating selection process is just not designed for this kind of world, with seemingly abundant opportunities in the online world which are not aligned with reality.

What's the objective of the dating game? To reproduce. Right now, women have all the dating opportunities they can ever imagine. If women are not reproducing in this environment, but are instead staying single until their 30s using swipe apps with no long-term goals, then they are clearly not playing the dating game well. Again, not blaming anyone, just observing.

 

[DonJuanjr]

zero testosterone. zero body hair.

What's body hair have to do with testosterone? I'm not a hairy person, but my test levels are in the normal range...

 

[DonJuanjr]

I think men have mostly given up approaching because women today have a huge amount of options and their behavior shows it. Their phone is full of men wanting to be with them. Even though they will never meet most of those men, it doesn't matter because the feeling of abundance is there.

The world has changed dramatically over the past 10-20 years:
1. The average woman today has more dating options than a super model or a celebrity did 20 years ago.
2. The average man today has almost no chance of attracting or keeping an average woman (with rare exceptions).

To be clear, I'm not blaming women for this. Our mating selection process is just not designed for this kind of world, with seemingly abundant opportunities in the online world which are not aligned with reality.

What's the objective of the dating game? To reproduce. Right now, women have all the dating opportunities they can ever imagine. If women are not reproducing in this environment, but are instead staying single until their 30s using swipe apps with no long-term goals, then they are clearly not playing the dating game well. Again, not blaming anyone, just observing.

Men need to not bail out women for their mistake of riding the c0ck carousel for 15+ years. Women past the age of 30 should be seen as disposable play toys. Not possible future baby mommas.

 

[jaymbrs]

I used to feel the same. However, as a test case. I recently approached a woman at a bar who was giving no IOIs and it went well. So, I’m no longer holding that as a Hard rule.

It only takes 1 I suppose.

 

[SW15]

I think men have mostly given up approaching because women today have a huge amount of options and their behavior shows it. Their phone is full of men wanting to be with them. Even though they will never meet most of those men, it doesn't matter because the feeling of abundance is there.

The world has changed dramatically over the past 10-20 years:
1. The average woman today has more dating options than a super model or a celebrity did 20 years ago.
2. The average man today has almost no chance of attracting or keeping an average woman (with rare exceptions).

I don't accept the premise that men have given up approaching. I accept the idea that approaching is becoming less common. There are still enough guys out there doing in-person approaches.

You're right on the changes in the last X number of years.

Male competition is more intense due to quantity than it was in the past, especially if the woman is using swipe apps. Even if she isn't, her social DMs are fielding a lot of requests. The perception of female abundance has been quite high in recent years, affecting their behaviors. The best way to avoid the worst female behaviors is to meet them through a pre-vetted social circle options. Cold approach is better than the tech options but there are a ton of rejections that happen in doing them. Most are soft and unmemorable but taking enough quantity of those without successes is psychologically devastating.

To be clear, I'm not blaming women for this. Our mating selection process is just not designed for this kind of world, with seemingly abundant opportunities in the online world which are not aligned with reality.

What's the objective of the dating game? To reproduce. Right now, women have all the dating opportunities they can ever imagine. If women are not reproducing in this environment, but are instead staying single until their 30s using swipe apps with no long-term goals, then they are clearly not playing the dating game well. Again, not blaming anyone, just observing.

Accurate

 

[Slowhandluke]

Male competition is more intense due to quantity than it was in the past, especially if the woman is using swipe apps.

It's more competitive because chads will have multiple women, and society does not limit them to only one girl at a time by shaming them. Imagine high value guy "dating" 5 to 6 average girls; and these girls trying to be his "main squeeze"... well, since the population is made up of 50% men and 50% women; those 4 to 5 women are basically out of the dating scene for the average guy; imagine other high value guys competing for these same 5 to 6 average girls.

At the end of the day, the competition for women is fierce. But since most high value guys don't want to have LTR which can lead to marriage/kids to ALL of these women; except perhaps just one, the majority of women that don't get "picked", get "screwed over" in the long run figuratively and literally. And on the sidelines, you have average guys wondering why dating is tough for them.. Only for these same women to show up later in life on the average guys radar, but by that time she's not as attractive so the average guy is less incline to date/marriage them.

 

[allergictobs]

The best way to avoid the worst female behaviors is to meet them through a pre-vetted social circle options.

Agreed.

On swipe apps and online dating, I don't quite understand why there hasn't been a widespread solution to the problem yet: women typically complain that guys they meet through swipe apps are fakes, and guys complain that they can hardly meet any women at all.

To me it seems that the obvious solution would be some type of mediated dating service, where both women and men are vetted by a third party who
1. confirms the claims they make in their dating profiles
2. takes accurate photos that reflect reality
3. limits the amount of likes/swipes and perhaps even helps organize the first date between matches (for example, both the guy and the girl would have to agree to show up etc.)

 

[SW15]

To me it seems that the obvious solution would be some type of mediated dating service, where both women and men are vetted by a third party who
1. confirms the claims they make in their dating profiles
2. takes accurate photos that reflect reality
3. limits the amount of likes/swipes and perhaps even helps organize the first date between matches (for example, both the guy and the girl would have to agree to show up etc.)

That business model has been around for a long time. It's been around even longer than swipe apps and it doesn't have a great track record. It's called matchmakers.

Prior to the pandemic, if you were to look at any in-flight magazine, you would see ads for matchmaking services. Matchmaking services can be quite pricy. In the pre-internet era, they were used primarily by men who weren't doing well at the bars and didn't have a social circle. In the last 15 years, it's been men struggling on websites/apps primarily, but still also bar strugglers and social circle struggles.

Matchmakers are rarely discussed on SoSuave. I'm not sure why.

Matchmakers do a decent job of Task #1. They talk to single men and single women and facilitate meetings. Sometimes they even organize the first meet, though they're more likely to put potential couples on dinner dates (bad idea, and partially why a lot of them have a bad reputation for actually producing results). Very few strongly assess the potential couple of goodness of fit well.

What typically happens with matchmakers is that some man forks over $10,000+ for matches and doesn't end up achieving much. With some matchmaking outfits, both men and women pay to be members and both fail. The women who are paying $10,000+ tend to be 30s and up career women by default. Who else would be the market for that price tag?

There isn't much in the way of swiping in the matchmaking world but they in theory try to limit the amount of matches and focus on goodness of fit matches, which they rarely deliver on.

Very few couples actually form from matchmaker efforts.

 

[allergictobs]

That business model has been around for a long time. It's been around even longer than swipe apps and it doesn't have a great track record. It's called matchmakers.

I was aware of matchmakers but don't quite understand why it hasn't been offered as a solution to the swipe app problem (even though its track record is not very good, it would still address many of the problems of swipe app users).

Very few couples actually form from matchmaker efforts.

I believe this is correct. I guess the essence of the dating problem is that great partners find a good match quite easily and never have to use any type of dating service.

 

[AureliusMaximus]

Men afraid to approach?

Little boys of different ages are afraid of approach, real men take action and get shiete done. Period.

I know the world isn't black or white, but if you never take action you will never get results either.
Like Einstein said: "Nothing happens until it moves".

 

[Slowhandluke]

Agreed.

On swipe apps and online dating, I don't quite understand why there hasn't been a widespread solution to the problem yet: women typically complain that guys they meet through swipe apps are fakes, and guys complain that they can hardly meet any women at all.

To me it seems that the obvious solution would be some type of mediated dating service, where both women and men are vetted by a third party who
1. confirms the claims they make in their dating profiles
2. takes accurate photos that reflect reality
3. limits the amount of likes/swipes and perhaps even helps organize the first date between matches (for example, both the guy and the girl would have to agree to show up etc.)

Online dating is not about getting people into long-term relationships. If Match Group (the company that owns most of the dating apps) did this, they would lose customers. Match Group wants $$$. They get money by having more people continuously be on the apps. In other words, Allergictobs would be the worse CEO of a dating app company in the world because he would make his companies lose money... but he would help people and society in general. Dating apps that are effective at matching couples; that causes couples to quickly leave the app and get married into loving marriages -- is not a very good app from a $$$ point of view.

Besides, whenever a new dating app comes in and actually starts helping people form LTR, Match Group usually buys them out and ruins them. In a way, Match Group kills off the competition by buying them out, and then people complain about not being able to find LTR online.

Perhaps in the future, there might be an effective dating app, right now, average people don't see that they are being swindled on the apps so they don't demand it. Instead, they blame themselves, society, etc... Isn't strange but the internet has made things more efficient, (doing taxes, buying goods, reviewing services, going to the doctor, etc.), but for some reason the internet has cause finding a mate to be even harder while at the same time the number of people on the dating apps are high?

For the average guy and average woman; the dating apps are like the games at a carnival that the carnies run. You throw the ball at the cups, but you wind up missing "by an inch".. he keeps on encouraging you while you keep on forking over your time and money. Ultimately you get burned out because you can never hit the cups -- and you will never because the carnival workers rigged the game (maybe a few people might win every now and then so the carnie can say the game wasn't rigged - but it's rare). New people come in hoping to get the prize of a stuff teddy bear (the relationship with the chad or a relationship with a girl), and the carnie keeps on getting richer. Its a scam.

That business model has been around for a long time. It's been around even longer than swipe apps and it doesn't have a great track record. It's called matchmakers.

Prior to the pandemic, if you were to look at any in-flight magazine, you would see ads for matchmaking services. Matchmaking services can be quite pricy. In the pre-internet era, they were used primarily by men who weren't doing well at the bars and didn't have a social circle. In the last 15 years, it's been men struggling on websites/apps primarily, but still also bar strugglers and social circle struggles.

Matchmakers are rarely discussed on SoSuave. I'm not sure why.

Matchmakers don't work because of high expectations perpetuated by the "girlpower" movement. Basically, the "don't settle, queen".. etc.. etc.. The following woman use to be a matchmaker, but she quit.

 

[AureliusMaximus]

Online dating is not about getting people into long-term relationships.

It is mostly about hookups and thirst traps to generate attention. Men want to date chicks for sex and women just want the validation (and possibly a free meal if she ever would say yes ).

 

[derby1]

It’s not that I’m afraid to approach anymore. It’s more that I don’t feel like wasting the energy to get a number, have it go nowhere or maybe we go on a few dates and they ghost or drop the “not over my ex” bomb after a few dates. Approaching never leads anywhere anymore and yeah I know you aren’t supposed to have expectations but honestly if the outcome is always the same, why bother?

I have 5 women currently in my recent whatsapp contacts.

1. Ive got 2 out but ones a bit ambiguous, although tbf she turns up and initiates.
2. 4 are behaving like theres some chap in the picture (ive got a 6th sense for this now with the their habits and text patterns etc, overly interested, then massive pull backs etc)

All ive done is take two women for drinks which has cost me 100 UK pounds. and sat DM'ing 4 bad leads.

And I havent got laid once from the above list. To top it off, theyre just normal women.

 

[biggoal]

Agreed.

On swipe apps and online dating, I don't quite understand why there hasn't been a widespread solution to the problem yet: women typically complain that guys they meet through swipe apps are fakes, and guys complain that they can hardly meet any women at all.

To me it seems that the obvious solution would be some type of mediated dating service, where both women and men are vetted by a third party who
1. confirms the claims they make in their dating profiles
2. takes accurate photos that reflect reality
3. limits the amount of likes/swipes and perhaps even helps organize the first date between matches (for example, both the guy and the girl would have to agree to show up etc.)

Post covid lockdown a big chunk of the women are fatties on old now. Very few skinny women to go around.

 

[SW15]

I was aware of matchmakers but don't quite understand why it hasn't been offered as a solution to the swipe app problem (even though its track record is not very good, it would still address many of the problems of swipe app users).

I believe this is correct. I guess the essence of the dating problem is that great partners find a good match quite easily and never have to use any type of dating service.

Matchmakers do position themselves in their marketing efforts as the alternative to bar approaching and to the problems of the swipe apps (and prior to swipe apps, the dating websites). Matchmaking companies are aware that people have problems with swipe apps and also with approaching.

The people who are worth dating generally don't appear on swipe apps. It's the leftovers who appear there. Mostly everyone wants to meet their mate through some other means, including at a bar. The day game "meet cute" (as women call it) is something women desire provided that they don't have a good social circle.

Online dating is not about getting people into long-term relationships. If Match Group (the company that owns most of the dating apps) did this, they would lose customers. Match Group wants $$$. They get money by having more people continuously be on the apps. In other words, Allergictobs would be the worse CEO of a dating app company in the world because he would make his companies lose money... but he would help people and society in general. Dating apps that are effective at matching couples; that causes couples to quickly leave the app and get married into loving marriages -- is not a very good app from a $$$ point of view.

Besides, whenever a new dating app comes in and actually starts helping people form LTR, Match Group usually buys them out and ruins them. In a way, Match Group kills off the competition by buying them out, and then people complain about not being able to find LTR online.

If the swipe apps (and websites before them) don't want you to be successful, why use them? Fucck them! I'm glad I'm off of them. The bars aren't motivated to keep you in the bars in the same way The Match Group wants you to stay on their platforms. Grocery chains like Albertsons, Kroger, Whole Foods, etc. don't care one bit if you get dates and form long term relationships there. The city's Parks & Recreation doesn't care if you meet at a city park or on a city owned walking/hiking path.

Bumble is the only major app that isn't owned by Match Group. Bumble still wants you to remain on their platform though in the same way Match Group does.

For the average guy and average woman; the dating apps are like the games at a carnival that the carnies run. You throw the ball at the cups, but you wind up missing "by an inch".. he keeps on encouraging you while you keep on forking over your time and money. Ultimately you get burned out because you can never hit the cups -- and you will never because the carnival workers rigged the game (maybe a few people might win every now and then so the carnie can say the game wasn't rigged - but it's rare). New people come in hoping to get the prize of a stuff teddy bear (the relationship with the chad or a relationship with a girl), and the carnie keeps on getting richer. Its a scam.

This is actually a perfect way to describe how they operate. Men are best served using another option.

Perhaps in the future, there might be an effective dating app, right now, average people don't see that they are being swindled on the apps so they don't demand it. Instead, they blame themselves, society, etc... Isn't strange but the internet has made things more efficient, (doing taxes, buying goods, reviewing services, going to the doctor, etc.), but for some reason the internet has cause finding a mate to be even harder while at the same time the number of people on the dating apps are high?

The internet improved buying goods and improved access to customer reviews about brands. The internet has not improved the mating environment at all and has made it worse.

Matchmakers don't work because of high expectations perpetuated by the "girlpower" movement. Basically, the "don't settle, queen".. etc.. etc.. The following woman use to be a matchmaker, but she quit.

Some matchmakers operate with men paying and women free, much like a corporate entity hires a third party recruiter to bring in candidates. Other matchmakers have both males and females as paying members. Neither business model is good for forming relationships.

 

[biggoal]

Matchmakers do position themselves in their marketing efforts as the alternative to bar approaching and to the problems of the swipe apps (and prior to swipe apps, the dating websites). Matchmaking companies are aware that people have problems with swipe apps and also with approaching.

The people who are worth dating generally don't appear on swipe apps. It's the leftovers who appear there. Mostly everyone wants to meet their mate through some other means, including at a bar. The day game "meet cute" (as women call it) is something women desire provided that they don't have a good social circle.



If the swipe apps (and websites before them) don't want you to be successful, why use them? Fucck them! I'm glad I'm off of them. The bars aren't motivated to keep you in the bars in the same way The Match Group wants you to stay on their platforms. Grocery chains like Albertsons, Kroger, Whole Foods, etc. don't care one bit if you get dates and form long term relationships there. The city's Parks & Recreation doesn't care if you meet at a city park or on a city owned walking/hiking path.

Bumble is the only major app that isn't owned by Match Group. Bumble still wants you to remain on their platform though in the same way Match Group does.




This is actually a perfect way to describe how they operate. Men are best served using another option.



The internet improved buying goods and improved access to customer reviews about brands. The internet has not improved the mating environment at all and has made it worse.



Some matchmakers operate with men paying and women free, much like a corporate entity hires a third party recruiter to bring in candidates. Other matchmakers have both males and females as paying members. Neither business model is good for forming relationships.

Notice ever since match llc bought tinder and okc and pof they all went downhill? Okc is useless now. Tinder too because shadow bans and less swipes before you gotta pay for premium. Match also has taken more features away as well and more pay to play now.

Even bumble has changed. Signed up for one to see if it had changed. Gives you a lot less swipes before you gotta pay for their premium services.

Seems match has become more money hungry since buying okc and tinder.

The actual match main website i notice less women on there the last two years.
Probably trying to make up their lost revenue.

I guess old could be compared to playing the lotto scratchers. They try and get you hooked think you'll win big and keep on buying.

 

[BadWatermelon]

Rollo always talks about Instagram being the #1 dating app. Does anyone actually meet people on IG, or do you meet them IRL and then add them to IG?

 

[user252009]

Rollo always talks about Instagram being the #1 dating app. Does anyone actually meet people on IG, or do you meet them IRL and then add them to IG?

Mixture, but a lot of first contact with women is over IG these days; the downside is that once they vet your profile and you don't seem high value enough, they never respond (happens all the time to me)

 

[Ladykiler]

Well a lot guys could learn a lot from working in sales position for while because the game theory is pretty much the same.

Let say you basically approach 100 customers and out of that you will get maybe 3-5 that ends up being a paying client. 15-25 will show some kind of interest , but will ghost you, the rest will just say "Fvck you, no way" directly over the phone.

The game is pretty much the same and you learn how to now give a flying fvck and that rejections really do not matter. In the end of the day its the "Yes'es" that you will remember and that will matter. The "No's" doesn't matter at all.

Rejection is just a temporary state in life. But when you get the "Yes'es" it can potentially change your life forever.

underrated post

 

[Ladykiler]

I have 5 women currently in my recent whatsapp contacts.

1. Ive got 2 out but ones a bit ambiguous, although tbf she turns up and initiates.
2. 4 are behaving like theres some chap in the picture (ive got a 6th sense for this now with the their habits and text patterns etc, overly interested, then massive pull backs etc)

All ive done is take two women for drinks which has cost me 100 UK pounds. and sat DM'ing 4 bad leads.

And I havent got laid once from the above list. To top it off, theyre just normal women.

I’d personally only do free dates or dates not costing no more than a 30 bucks with a chick

especially the first date