mature communication

[francheezy]

Hello all,

So I recently started dating this woman I met online. I met her before thanksgiving, and by mid december I would say we were "dating"

Some facts:
-She's successful and she knows it. 25, bilingual, owns her own place, masters degree in engineering. You get the picture. A great catch.
-We have very similar backgrounds when it comes to family, values, etc. Both hispanic, raised overseas, strong family, etc.
-She's cute although not hot. Looks, HB6, however I'm far more interested in her intellect and overall qualities than solely looks. I can actually admire her achievements and intellect.
-She's conservative when approaching relationships. Takes it slow, claims she's a virgin and she's waiting for the right man. From any ol' chick, I'd say bull****. In this case though, her life is so well together and coherent throughout, that I'll actually "buy it"
-Talked about past relationships and what happened, she claims it's not easy to find guys that respect not going intimate. She also claims she's picky and tends to put up a wall when meeting people.

SO- two breaks in between when she went home (out of state) Thanksgiving, and Winter break. Since I met her, she's been away probably 3 weeks combined. Else, we have hung out at least once a week. During those breaks, very little communication, maybe a call here or there, some texting.

When we are together, it's good. Great chemistry, etc. Last time (Saturday) I picked her up from the airport, we went to her place, instead of going out we cooked dinner, went to starbucks, etc. Good stuff, great time. I respect her intimacy "rules" so I don't even push on that front. Frankly, I've gotten laid enough. lol

ANYWAY. here's the bottom line. Communication in between dates is very very limited and this is where I'm concerned. I don't know if in past relationships I've gotten used to too much communication (calling every day or texting, etc) or if in this particular case communication is lagging.

For example this week: Saturday airport pick up, did stuff at her place. Sunday silence. Monday she called me after work. Tuesday silence. Wednesday I called her in the morning to "kick off" the day, left voicemail but never heard back. Text her inviting her for an after work drink but she had a thank you dinner to attend. C&F wishing her a wonderful date, got a two liner back, the rest of the afternoon and evening silence.


SO the big question becomes: Is this a test? Low Interest Level? Am I expecting too much communication too early? Did I get used to too much communication too early in the past?

How often do YOU communicate with your successful prospect? How often do you find that you communicate with your adult 'mature" women?

Oh and to top it off, her aunt and grandmother are arriving tomorrow, so the weekend is basically off limits. In other words if no hang out today, I probably won't see her until next week. ayayay.

 

[boomerick]

When you say "she's a great catch" I think is where you may have lost control of the frame. You should be the GREAT CATCH! She seems to be making all the rules. No sex, always busy, happy to hang with you on her terms. I dunno, seems like you are more into her than she's into you. I think if it were me I'd go low profile with her for a while and date other women.

 

[PlaysToWin]

Careful there dude. It sounds like she's doing all the things that us DJs are meant to, to be sparing with communication in between dates, to give the appearance of being busy, etc. And just as it works on girls, it's working on you because you're falling her. Be careful about onitis. You're showing early symptoms. By all means continue to date her but I suggest you give her as little attention as she is giving you and be sure to spin a few other plates to give yourself alternatives and some much needed sense of perspective.

 

[Luthor Rex]

She may "like you" or whatever, but obviously you're low on her priority list.

The question is, will she always act this way, and if so can you put up with it?

 

[francheezy]

thanks for the posts guys.

well, oneitis is an issue, however i'm also seeing other women. It's just that this one is a ferrari and the others are cadillacs! hehe obviously i'm going to try a bit harder.

OK - what about simply calling her out on it? Calling is almost out of the question, chances are it's goign to voice mail.
Rather, emailing her somehting like I feel we have good chemistry and great potential, but also feel you are restraining communication to a very poor level. Lets meet and discuss things, I don't want to waste your time and I don't want to waste mine.

Would you read this as confident? Insecure? In the end, I guess there really is only one way to actually know what she's thinking or feeling and that's asking.... or... other ideas?????

Anyone else? How often do you communicate with your more "mature" out-of-college, have-a-life prospect?


THanks!

 

[boomerick]

I think if you text her this it allows her to make the call and you are no longer in any control. Plus you might get her in an off moment where she just reacts and decides to end it. If you go radio silent on her it may let her start to wonder about you, miss you and when she contacts you she'll be in a better place to deal. Remember an ultimatum has two possible outcomes: 1 she gets what you are saying and agrees to change or 2: she takes you up on it and walks. As far as the Ferrari deal goes - most Ferraris are stored,in dark garages, under a dust cover and never driven. When they are used they cost a lot to operate and usually end up needing high dollar repairs. I think you should treat her like your normal fleet cars. She may, after all, in the long run, turn out to be a Yugo.

 

[Luthor Rex]

Rather, emailing her somehting like I feel we have good chemistry and great potential, but also feel you are restraining communication to a very poor level. Lets meet and discuss things, I don't want to waste your time and I don't want to waste mine.

This sounds like the rational thing to do -- which is why it won't work. Don't get me wrong I understand your thinking here: mature adults can talk about their problems. The flaw here is that you are assuming that women are mature adults. They aren't.

Honestly I really think that you shouldn't expect things to change. Relationships tend to be hot at the start, then cool off with ups and down of heating up and cooling off. Even friendships tend to be like this. If she's this cold at the start of the relationship, how cold will things be later?

I think you should either accept things as they are, or move on.

 

[jophil28]

SO the big question becomes: Is this a test? Low Interest Level? Am I expecting too much communication too early? Did I get used to too much communication too early in the past?

How often do YOU communicate with your successful prospect? How often do you find that you communicate with your adult 'mature" women?

Oh and to top it off, her aunt and grandmother are arriving tomorrow, so the weekend is basically off limits. In other words if no hang out today, I probably won't see her until next week. ayayay.

Ha ha..I guess that we may have gotten used to women texting and calling for every trivial reason..and now we almost expect it from all women.
So when a woman does NOT follow that pattern it 'feels' a little disturbing ?

This woman is a post grad engineer. To her, communication is about exchanging tangible information and exchanging and reporting FACTS..
I bet that her texts are more 'matter of fact' than flirty.

I think that you may arrive at a point of decision between respecting and admiring her 'togetherness' versus feeling a tad bored and unfulfilled because of her natural 'reserve' and lack of spontaneity .

This woman will make her 'relationship' a project with all the perusal and scrutiny that a skilled professional technologist deploys at the office.

 

[francheezy]

update

So I've opted for the high route. This afternoon I txt her saying hello and asking for her to make some time this evening because i'd like to talk in person.

Surprise surprise she txt back. we'll b meting up but she wants to be friends, she doesnt see it going further. Ayayay. We are meeting in 30 min.

we'll c.

Update soon

 

[jophil28]

Before I got to this last post I was going to post that she has low to zero interest in you and you'll soon get the let's just be friends speech. She beat me too it.

Too many mistakes on your part to list. Your oneitis put her on a pedestal from the moment you two met.

Go ice cold no contact and move on. Hopefully you can start addressing your bone deep AFC behavior before you screw up another one. But, referencing the fact that after being coldly rejected by her you are still going to meet, I see you haven't learned. Have some dignity for Christ's sake.

Women with high interest call you all the time, they always answer your calls or return them quickly, and for God's sake, a women with high interest level will be tearing your pants off after dinner. She told you straight to your face that she is 'saving' herself for sex with the right guy which is code for 'you ain't the right guy.'

Agreed.
However I wonder why he would still bother to meet with her after she just officially FZ'ed him.
What is there to say after hearing that from her.....maybe , " I have enough friends, bye".

 

[Jitterbug]

I wonder if the title of the thread "mature communication" is an intended irony for the act of her dumping / LJBFing him via TXT, high-school style.

francheezy, I hope you'll learn a lesson from this: treat all women - regardless of age, education, background, appearance - as silly little girls unless they've consistently proven to you otherwise over a long period of time. Nerd chicks (I work with plenty) are just as immature as Woooo girls.

 

[wait_out]

Reading signals

Women with high interest call you all the time, they always answer your calls or return them quickly.

Further to this, if she's not communicating:
1) She's not interested and never will be. Not calling her saves you time + dignity.
2) She's not interested but becomes insecure that you don't care. Flaky testing the water messages follow. Not calling means you don't fall into her little web.
See here: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1641097#post1641097
3) She's interested but is unable to communicate. Not calling means you are in control of yourself.

I remember getting into a debate with you a while back Don, but you read women's motivations and how they perceive + react to AFC behaviour better than almost anyone here. You should do a long post about avoiding this kind of self-delusion (Oh she's MATURE! I bet she's different!). A lot of people could improve on this, which makes it sticky material for sure.

You may want to "take the high road", whatever that means, but you know what? Girls are never too busy to return a call or a text, so this little game is something that they're ultimately responsible for. Girls only complain about guys "playing games" if they get outplayed and dumped. If you can't read and at least hold even with a woman, she won't even respect you.

Like Don said, girls who like you and don't want to play games will just invite you over to **** them. There is a pretty clear difference between the two

 

[AMDG]

Low Interest Level?

That - my current GF is contacting me more that I contact her, was a virgin before she met me and is now craving for me literally. She is also a top student and is juggling with lots of exams - but her free time is mine only. Before that I had known plenty of girls with low interest, and dumped them. You may do the same to save your dignity.

 

[boomerick]

Yugo

Yep...she's a Yugo. As in Yugo straight into the friendzone! Now you have a choice -- orbiting chump or send her to the dump. Car analogies...Geez!

 

[francheezy]

lmao

OK -

ya'll went on a rant about this stuff. Great, I appreciate the attention lol

but here's something no one, not me, not you, or frankly anyone expected.....

so we met up.
Frankly I thought she knew about other women I'm seeing which is entirely what I was expecting from her.
Well...
She explained that she didn't know how to put it nicely so she'd have to put it bluntly. I'm like great, go ahead.

Apparently- she was having doubts about my sexuality. I'm like WHAT?!
LMAO

Mind you I'm entirely comfortable with my sexuality, perhaps a little too comfortable which is why I don't mind saying oh that's a good looking guy, or throwing some sarcasm out there which at face value might come across as "gay". Perhaps some manerisms from time to time, but really I'm way too attracted to women.

Well, little bits and pieces had apparently built up in her head over time (she brought up specifics...)and she didnt know if she could handle it (or so she claims). She didnt know how to bring it up so doubts built in her head and was ready to call it quits. She was almost in tears, while I was laughing left and right and busting her chops. Funny ass night. Went out to dinner, things are cleared up.

I brought up communication issues, and as a poster here said, she approaches things very systematically. It doesn't help that she hasn't been in a relationship for over a year and a half so she's not in that thinking mode quite yet. Again or so she claims. But then again, at some point we have to take a leap of faith and actually believe what people say, instead of scrutinizing every bit and piece....

So it's resolved. Things are ok, she actually wanted to make it official. I told her I wasnt sure if we were there yet, and left it at that.

And I'm still laughing.

 

[zekko]

The problem with driven successful women like this is that their focus is mainly on their careers. She'll always be busy with her professional life and family and the boyfriend gets very low priority.

I'd also be concerned about the virginity business, even though I respect women who are concerned about their chastity. You could end up being very frustrated with her because she's not very experienced and may not be willing to do certain things, if she's willing to hop in the sack at all. A lot of times such women are very uptight and reserved about sexual matters.

As for her dumping you into the FZ, she may not be that into men. I'm not saying she's lesbian or anything, but her interests lie elsewhere - outside of having sexual relationships. Maybe what old school guys used to call "frigid".

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

If you haven't already, you're about to be LJBFed. Would you like to know why? Because every word you've used to describe this woman, every reason you've given for qualifying her as "unique" and every indication you've presented about yourself points to you being an enormous AFC.

Predictably, the first response most guys will want to pile on about is to tell you she's messed up or break down her problems for avoiding you, but honestly, the answer is starring back at you in the bathroom mirror.

So I recently started dating this woman I met online. I met her before thanksgiving, and by mid december I would say we were "dating"

Why are you meeting women online? You're 25, meeting women face to face, approaching them, interacting should be your first course of action. I'm sure you'll just come back with the "It's just easier / I'm too busy" line of horse sh!t, but at 25 your scenario here about "meeting" her online is nothing but a Buffer for you. Also, what do you think constitutes dating? You're certainly not banging this girl, so how many 'dates' have you had?

-She's successful and she knows it. 25, bilingual, owns her own place, masters degree in engineering. You get the picture. A great catch.

If I heard women say, "wow, he's got his own place and a masters degree in engineering, what a great catch" I'd think they were gold diggers to some degree. Any guy using the term "great catch" about a woman reeks of AFC. Women use this term to describe men, betas use it to describe women who they think would make a good husband for them. That you'd use the term as you did here only screams "I'm a chump who buys into buys into feminized equalitarianism in an effort to seem more attractive to them."

-She's cute although not hot. Looks, HB6, however I'm far more interested in her intellect and overall qualities than solely looks. I can actually admire her achievements and intellect.

AFCs love to rationalize their "choice" of women and their less than ideal looks by emphasizing that "it's what's on the inside that's really attractive." Admiring achievements and intellect are criteria for women's attraction to men. Parroting this back sounds like you're taking some high road, but the degree on her wall doesn't make her look any better naked. This is a very common AFC identification rationalization. Here's a secret, even brainy women will only want to ƒuck when they feel sexy, and she knows you hammering away about how her mind turns you on wont make an HB6 an HB10.

-She's conservative when approaching relationships. Takes it slow, claims she's a virgin and she's waiting for the right man. From any ol' chick, I'd say bull****. In this case though, her life is so well together and coherent throughout, that I'll actually "buy it"

-Talked about past relationships and what happened, she claims it's not easy to find guys that respect not going intimate. She also claims she's picky and tends to put up a wall when meeting people.

So lets break this down; she's 25, masters degree in engineering, owns her own home, etc. Now, maybe JOPHIL can qualify this for me, but if I'm not mistaken a Master's degree in engineering is at minimum an 8 year life investment, meaning she'd have to have began on it at 18. How many "relationships" do you really think this virgin has had in that 8 years while earning a masters degree in a very intense field like engineering? How many valuable learning experiences do you think she's had with "relationships"? An HB6 girl with a master's and a house at 25, yeah, she's a virgin, but not because she's so conservative, well grounded or picky. You're making her necessity a virtue because you think it'll lead you into some fantasy relationship with her. Classic AFC rationalizing.

I respect her intimacy "rules" so I don't even push on that front. Frankly, I've gotten laid enough. lol

Exactly the rationale I've come to expect from AFCs reasoning why they aren't getting laid. Genuine desire is non-negotiable. It happens or it doesn't. Desire is a spontaneous, chemical arousal between people, not a pre-written contract. By placing preconditions on what will or will not qualify for a woman's intimacy, she essentially rules out any chance for genuine, organic desire. You've essentially by-passed the arousal stages and moved directly into comfort. Comfort, rapport, familiarity, are all anti-seductive. Sexual tension is uncomfortable; it's supposed to be in order to prompt desire.

A "friends first" policy is a sh!t test. This is basically a woman wondering if you understand women well enough to know that what she really wants is the contrary of what she's saying, and if you're Alpha enough to act upon that understanding with confidence anyway. You're not which is why you're explaining it away. Any 25 y.o. guy saying he's gotten laid enough is selling himself something.

well, oneitis is an issue, however i'm also seeing other women. It's just that this one is a ferrari and the others are cadillacs! hehe obviously i'm going to try a bit harder.

So, the brainy, home-owning, HB6 virgin with intimacy issues is a Ferrari to you? Call me crazy, but I DON'T think you've gotten laid nearly enough.


Now, rather than eviscerate you any further (because I doubt you'll look at yourself any differently after reading this) I'll refer to my archives for the benefit of the others posting in this thread. Underlined qualities emphasized for this OP's situation:

Qualities of an AFC

ONEitis – First and foremost.

Subscribes to feminine idealizations.

Supplication. She must increase, so he must decrease, regardless of how subtly this is realized.

The Savior Schema –reciprocation of intimacy for problems solved.

The Martyr Schema – the more you sacrifice the more it shows devotion.

The ‘Friends’ Debt – LJBF and the pseudo-friendship method.

Primarily relies on dating and social skills (or lack thereof) developed during puberty and early adulthood

A behavioral history that illustrates a mental attitude of ‘serial monogamy’ and the realated inscurities that accompany it.

A belief that women infallibly and consciously recognize what they want, and honestly convey this to them, irrespective of behaviors that contradict this. Uses deductive reasoning in determining intent and bases female motivations on statements rather than objectively observing behavior.

Believes in the Identification Myth. The more alike he is, or can make himself, with his idealized female the better able he will be to attract and secure her intimacy. Believes that shared common interests are the ONLY key to attraction and enduring intimacy.

Believes and practices the “not like other guys” doctrine, even under the condition of anonymity.

Considers LDRs a viable option for prolonged intimacy.

Maintains an internalized belief in the qualifications and characterizations of women that coincide with his ability (or inability) to attract them. Ergo, he self-confirms the “ she’s out of my league” and the “she’s a loose slut” mentalities on-the-fly to reinforce his position for his given conditions.

Harbors irrational (often socially reinforced) fears of long term solitude and alters his mind-set to accommodate or settle for a less than optimal short term relationship – often with life long consequences.

The AFC will confirm a belief in egalitarian equality between the genders without consideration for variance between the genders. Ergo, men make perfectly acceptable feminine models and women make perfectly acceptable masculine models. Due to societal pressures he unconsciously self-confirms androgyny as a goal state.

 

[boomerick]

Well you didn't get out right dumped, but it sounds like you still may be in the friendzone. Good luck!


(Rollo got there just before me)

(And TOTALLY nailed it!)

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Apparently- she was having doubts about my sexuality. I'm like WHAT?!
LMAO

Mind you I'm entirely comfortable with my sexuality, perhaps a little too comfortable which is why I don't mind saying oh that's a good looking guy, or throwing some sarcasm out there which at face value might come across as "gay". Perhaps some manerisms from time to time, but really I'm way too attracted to women.

She doubts your sexuality, she didn't think you were gay. You presume it meant she thought maybe you were a latent homosexual, but her doubt is about your sexuality because you act and think like a woman, not a Man. You've self-identified with the feminine (or what you've been conditioned to think is the feminine) for so long that you've become indistinguishable from a woman.

As I stated earlier, even an HB6 needs to feel sexy, attractive and desired, but you've so desexualized yourself that she doubts your sexuality. She doesn't think you're gay, she doubts you're a man, and you've just taken the next logical step for her. What she doubts is your understanding of a masculine gender role.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Frankly, I've gotten laid enough. lol

WTF?????????