Marriage - Show me Successful Examples

[Stagger Lee]

I agree Vorbis.

 

[Slickster]

I'm a firm believer that marriages can be successful as long as the man consistently maintains the proper frame. The problem is that the majority of men have no clue how to do that and end up getting punked by their wives and the system.

These same unknowledgeable men then proceed to spout anti-marriage BS as though they are some kind of experts on the subject.

This website seems to have become a huge source of anti-marriage propaganda despite the fact that there are obviously plenty of good marriages out there. It probably has to do with the fact that the majority of people who would come to a site like this aren't good with women in the first place. The same reason there are so few true DJ's here either.

I can't think of any other topic like "marriage" where so many people take (gospel-like) advice from people who were obvious failures. I don't take my car to get fixed by someone who failed out of mechanic school. Nor do I visit doctors who failed out of med school. Why do so many guys listen to men from failed marriages?

If you want to know whether marriage is right for you, shouldn't you get advice from guys who are successful?

There are two sides to every argument and the the marriage vs single argument could rage on forever.

In any argument whenever you take an extreme stance you are most likely missing the big picture and therefore wrong to some extent.

A good thing to keep in mind whenever people are getting worked up and choosing sides.

 

[Stagger Lee]

I tend to agree Slickster that it is doable. I still say that a man should have to work at maintaining the proper frame is still not right. How about women maintain the proper frame as used to be expected like being submissive, supportive and deferential to their husband? What a novel concept, huh, except that's how it use to be. It's kind of a newfangled notion that it is the man that has to keep and hold a marriage together.

 

[Jitterbug]

Why do so many guys listen to men from failed marriages?

Because those guys once thought they had a successful marriage. They went through the first few years thinking EXACTLY like you (and as I know, you are about 1.5 years into your marriage - basically honeymoon period).

If you want to know whether marriage is right for you, shouldn't you get advice from guys who are successful?

Yeah, those guys (who are still married and enjoying life) tell me not to get married. Well, they do say that it's good if you can find a woman whom you want to share your life with, and that I agree with them. But marriage? In this current society & legal climate that are hostile to men? No thanks.

Those are from the older generations btw. Their sons are our age or older, and they give the same advice to them.

Getting married means you're handing the woman an enormous power, backed by the State, that I don't think your proper frame will do very well against. Besides, why would you want to keep someone so close to you that can do such damages when you, like all flawed human beings, become weak at times?

It's kind of a newfangled notion that it is the man that has to keep and hold a marriage together.

Nailed it!

The way it used to be was that society / the community / the extended family also had a big role in keeping the couple's marriage together.

Now, even if the man holds up his end of the bargain, like Slickster said (which I do agree with, that the man should fulfill his role), yet the woman doesn't - and no amount of "proper frame" from you can guarantee that it doesn't happen - nothing the man can do about it. What you're gonna do? Divorce her and let her be rewarded with half your sh!t and the kids for failing in her role? Hah!

 

[Stagger Lee]

Yeah Jitterbug, the way people say a man should "maintain the frame" kind of reminds me of telling someone to maintain the frame unarmed against a wild tiger. The tiger is completely unpredictable and has no reservations and the facilities to tear you apart. It's society and laws making women to be like trying to control a tiger unarmed. I think history shows that marriage and women didn't use to be this way. So I reject that any special Darwinian universal/timeless, psychological tricks are the real answer.

 

[Pickupmilitia]

I am glad this thread got a lot of feedback.

Paradox

The article you references shows a lot of old examples.... basically few I'd consider contemporary. And yes they were married for several years but there is nothing that indicates it was a happy marriage. Plus who knows how many times the male party has committed infidelity.

Azanon

I doubt you or Rollo would admit this on a forum, but have you ever cheated?

Slickster

A year and a half is still the honeymoon phase. Wait till her company becomes mundane. If I were a bettor, I'd bet you'll cheat. You also say that we don't get advice from successful examples... could it just be that there aren't any???

Vitor

What you right I agree with

Sodbuster

Frame? So are you saying you have to consistently game your wife? You can't relax ever just be comfortable? Sounds like a tough way to live

Jitterbug

I agree with with what you wrote.

Stagger Lee

Best take on this whole thread. Women are unpredictable and honestly pretty selfish and think they are entitled to certain things.

Teflon

Not always a man's fault. Woman change, and can be insidiously manipulative

Rollo Tomassi

I read the article. To me it basically just talks about being assertive and using c&f in regards to checking out other women. Honestly though not all women in this day and age are going to succumb to that. Furthermore in regards to blatantly checking out other women and then joking about it.. most women will retaliate in a similar matter.. and I certainly wouldn't want that.

Yogurtslave

old examples.... show me some contemporary ones

WaterTiger & Hemingway

I agree

Vorbis

Fall out of love??? So are you saying the state of love is really just temporal infatuation? I suppose soul mates are a bunch of bs then too....

 

[Nutz]

How about these couples:


Kurt Russell & Goldie Hawn - Married for 25 years

They have never been married. Neither is Gene Simmons and Shannon Tweed, although they're not on your list. My point here is that both couples have been together for decades and raised successful families all without the legal paperwork.

 

[zekko]

I still say that a man should have to work at maintaining the proper frame is still not right. How about women maintain the proper frame as used to be expected like being submissive, supportive and deferential to their husband?

Women today are probably not even aware that there is such a frame. They are taught from birth to be equal or superior to their husbands in every way. The idea of being submissive, supportive, and deferential is completely foreign to them. I imagine anyone suggesting it would be met with anger.

When you guys say that the laws are completely hostile to the male, do you think this is still true if you take children out of the equation? And if so, how?

I'm not anti-marriage, but I think there is often a dangerous change that comes over a lot of woman once she gets that ring - a sense of ownership I guess.

My niece got married when she was 16 (got pregnant) and has been married for 30 years. Both she and her husband seem happy. My parents never divorced but they were from an earlier generation so I won't bring them up.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

Besides, why would you want to keep someone so close to you that can do such damages when you, like all flawed human beings, become weak at times?

Do you have friends who stick by you even when you are struggling?

Can a man be a Man and still struggle?

Do the people who _truly_ care about you, abandon you during times of your own battles? Or do they try and aid through perspective and support?



Part of life is having others in it. We cannot live alone. The clothing on your skin couldn't have been made by just you, nor the thoughts in your head.

Marriage should be a choice, and I've seen several happy marriages (10+ years), along with seeing my own parents (who do seem to truly reflect caring love for one another...this has evolved in a different way beyond lust).

Through time, you might grow to understand someone so much that you'd likely do anything you could to aid them in life. You'd do everything you could to work with them, to mutually work towards a shared future.

There are happy marriages out there. Unfortunately, most people get married for the wrong reason (ie, children, female pressure, ect).

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I read the article. To me it basically just talks about being assertive and using c&f in regards to checking out other women. Honestly though not all women in this day and age are going to succumb to that. Furthermore in regards to blatantly checking out other women and then joking about it.. most women will retaliate in a similar matter.. and I certainly wouldn't want that.

Your response is founded in fear and a scarcity mentality.

The underlying, root problem most men have with regard to women, intimacy, their relationships, etc. is fear. Fear of rejection, fear of isolation, fear of missing out or ƒucking up what they've been taught should be their legitimate, socially approved desire. So pervasive is this fear that in trying to avoid the consequences of it, it trumps even the fear of death. I personally know Marines who've bravely faced real bullets shot at them, who'll manically avoid any situation they think their wives or GFs would even remotely consider leaving them for. Bullets don't scare them; the chance of losing a GF paralyzes them with fear.

In order to compensate for that fear men will devise all manner of rationales for their relations, but furthest from their mind would ever be 'experimenting' or engaging in risk taking situations with their LTR woman. So influential is that fear that they will never attempt changing their own positions no matter how beneficial it would be to both him and his partner. Guys embodying the peak of confidence in other aspects of their lives would still rather "keep the peace" in the face of a bad situation with their wives than risk that loss (of the ONE or otherwise), and be cast back into uncertain conditions where they may actually grow, but again be subject to real rejection.

The story I linked is an example of a guy who would've otherwise divorced his wife and was already in a "nothing left to lose" situation while married, so he overcame the fear and experimented. That led him to a new reframing of his relationship; one where his wife had a renewed respect for him. The possibility existed that she may have taken such offense to his behavior that she would leave him, but her leaving was already a foregone conclusion if he hadn't initiated something new.

I've been married for almost 14 years, and MRs. Tomassi and I have always enjoyed a mature, adult, mutual respect and understanding of each other's identities and how we relate to each other. I've been in LTRs where I was constantly walking on eggshells, nervous that any slight might mean the end of what was really a twisted, adolescent level relationship. You cannot live like that forever; you will break it off, or you'll commit suicide. I fearlessly check out other women and ask my wife's jokingly opinion about them. And yes, she playfully hits me back by saying some random guy is cute, but I'm confident enough to roll with it. In my line of work (liquor advertising), I'm regularly surrounded by young, beautiful women - I simply couldn't stay married to a less than supremely confident woman. And no I've never cheated. I've have so many opportunities to it's commonplace for me, but I've never had a reason to.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Women today are probably not even aware that there is such a frame. They are taught from birth to be equal or superior to their husbands in every way. The idea of being submissive, supportive, and deferential is completely foreign to them. I imagine anyone suggesting it would be met with anger.

When you guys say that the laws are completely hostile to the male, do you think this is still true if you take children out of the equation? And if so, how?

I'm not anti-marriage, but I think there is often a dangerous change that comes over a lot of woman once she gets that ring - a sense of ownership I guess.[

I agree completely. The problem with marriage and divorce is a societal and legal one. I suppose there are some women that believe that marriage means a commitment on her part and who naturally fall into their natural role despite society's negative influence. Those would be the ones to marry. The problem is they are few and far between, and will continue to be so as long as society and divorce laws are the way they are.

 

[zekko]

The problem is they are few and far between, and will continue to be so as long as society and divorce laws are the way they are.

So how would you change the laws? What SHOULD they be?

I don't really have a problem with women getting custody of the children most of the time because they are more naturally nurturers. But I don't have kids so I don't really care.

The biggest complaint you hear about divorce laws is "she'll get half". Of course on the one hand, this is only a problem if you have something. Just get rid of everything you have before you get married and it shouldn't be a problem Half is fair, really - it's splitting everything up evenly. The problem comes if you enter the marriage with a lot more than your fiance.
But look at Paul McCartney. When he divorced, his wife got a chunk, but she got nowhere near half of his money. Obviously she had not played a major hand in his earning it, so she wasn't entitled to it.

I guess the simplest solution would be marry up - marry a girl richer than you. That way you're in line to benefit if you split up, or at least won't have to worry about losing what you have.

 

[bigjohnson]

My parents, my brother, my sister, the girl from down the street, the next door neighbors, the little widow lady next to them .....

So how would you change the laws?

The concept that "each party is entitled to the lifestyle they enjoyed prior to the divorce" is fundamentally broken, and the further idea that a "lifestyle" is defined and created only via money is also incorrect.

Women today are probably not even aware that there is such a frame. They are taught from birth to be equal or superior to their husbands in every way. The idea of being submissive, supportive, and deferential is completely foreign to them. I imagine anyone suggesting it would be met with anger.

This is why I went with a woman who was raised outside the USA. She's awesome.

 

[zekko]

The concept that "each party is entitled to the lifestyle they enjoyed prior to the divorce" is fundamentally broken

I'm not sure that's a realistic concept though. People can be married for 10 years or more and over that time they will likely improve their lifestyle. Sometimes young people will be living with their parents prior to getting married - there isn't really a lifestyle to return to. If a woman quits work to raise children, she's still a partner in the marriage, and deserves compensation.

I got divorced and I didn't like giving up half either (although I thought the settlement was fair). I made more money than she did so I felt I was giving up more. But I knew what I was getting into when I got married. When you get married you become one, or at least that's the idea of it. So if you split, you split thing evenly in most cases. Honestly it sounds pretty fair. I knew the risks going in and thought I would try it once. And I wasn't ruined coming out of it either, although if there were children I'm sure it would have more difficult.

In the case of a really rich guy who marries some poor girl, and they get divorced after a year and she gets half, yeah that would be BS. But I bet in most cases she wouldn't get half in that scenario.

 

[bigjohnson]

I'm not sure that's a realistic concept though. People can be married for 10 years or more and over that time they will likely improve their lifestyle.

Prior to the divorce, not prior to the marriage. It's a rule of thumb divorce attorneys like to throw about. I know guys who where sole breadwinners in childless unions who ended up paying upwards of $200,000 in assets and support because they ex was "entitled" to a lifestyle.

I never saw their ex being forced to come over and clean that house or hand out a quick BJ though.

 

[Reyaj]

Your response is founded in fear and a scarcity mentality.

The underlying, root problem most men have with regard to women, intimacy, their relationships, etc. is fear. Fear of rejection, fear of isolation, fear of missing out or ƒucking up what they've been taught should be their legitimate, socially approved desire. So pervasive is this fear that in trying to avoid the consequences of it, it trumps even the fear of death. I personally know Marines who've bravely faced real bullets shot at them, who'll manically avoid any situation they think their wives or GFs would even remotely consider leaving them for. Bullets don't scare them; the chance of losing a GF paralyzes them with fear.

In order to compensate for that fear men will devise all manner of rationales for their relations, but furthest from their mind would ever be 'experimenting' or engaging in risk taking situations with their LTR woman. So influential is that fear that they will never attempt changing their own positions no matter how beneficial it would be to both him and his partner. Guys embodying the peak of confidence in other aspects of their lives would still rather "keep the peace" in the face of a bad situation with their wives than risk that loss (of the ONE or otherwise), and be cast back into uncertain conditions where they may actually grow, but again be subject to real rejection.

The story I linked is an example of a guy who would've otherwise divorced his wife and was already in a "nothing left to lose" situation while married, so he overcame the fear and experimented. That led him to a new reframing of his relationship; one where his wife had a renewed respect for him. The possibility existed that she may have taken such offense to his behavior that she would leave him, but her leaving was already a foregone conclusion if he hadn't initiated something new.

I've been married for almost 14 years, and MRs. Tomassi and I have always enjoyed a mature, adult, mutual respect and understanding of each other's identities and how we relate to each other. I've been in LTRs where I was constantly walking on eggshells, nervous that any slight might mean the end of what was really a twisted, adolescent level relationship. You cannot live like that forever; you will break it off, or you'll commit suicide. I fearlessly check out other women and ask my wife's jokingly opinion about them. And yes, she playfully hits me back by saying some random guy is cute, but I'm confident enough to roll with it. In my line of work (liquor advertising), I'm regularly surrounded by young, beautiful women - I simply couldn't stay married to a less than supremely confident woman. And no I've never cheated. I've have so many opportunities to it's commonplace for me, but I've never had a reason to.

Rollo sounds like you have a successful marriage. How did you and your wife meet if you don't mind me asking? How long did you date before you decided to propose? While you were dating her, did you still spin plates? If so when did you decide to stop and stay monogamous.

Sorry for the personal questions but I'm in an LTR and I want to make sure I go about it and life for that matter the right way.....