Man Vs. Monkey!!

Obsidian

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Deep Dish said:
For instance, factually demonstrate by quoting credible sources where evolutionary biologists have used typica and melanic peppered moth populations as argument for mutations rather than just an example of natural selection.
I've heard it in my biology classes. And technically there is nothing wrong with calling the moths "evolved." Evolution means the change in allele frequencies within a population. Evolution is an observed phenomenon. But saying that the entire theory has been proven (that mutations create new genetic info, and the newly superior organisms win out) is manipulative.

Nighthawk said:
There were some moths who lived in a forest somewhere. Then man-made pollution made the trees blacker and the light-coloured ones didn't blend in so well and were eaten by birds. The ones with darker-wing genes survived and thrived. Evolution.
And you already tried to equate observed evolution with unobserved macroevolution.

Deep Dish said:
One method deniers employ when creating a controversy (where none actually exists) is to take the central tenant of a premise--a singular premise and thus a singular tenant, bifercate the issue into two separate issues, and accept one, deny the other.
You were implying that the existence of observable evolution proves the entire theory. Microevolution is common sense, and it is observable. Macroevolution is quite speculative.

The closest thing to an observed example of macroevolution is when fruit flies speciate into two distinct populations. But while that's technically the creation of a new species, it certainly has nothing to do with mutations or new genetic info.

and there's no need for you to write an essay; I don't really have time to debate all the specific facts anyway. I just get annoyed at the corrupted logic and manipulation being used to prop up the theory.
 

Obsidian

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Desert Fox said:
That is exactly what I said. Can you read? Learn to read before trying to play with the big boys. Thanks.
You used Pasteur to suggest that creationism is flawed (even though creationism is not naturalistic). I used his work to suggest that abiogenesis was flawed.

And because you're such an assh0le (who needs to be banned, imo), I'm tempted not to read the rest of your post.
 

Bonhomme

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The evidence strongly supports the reality of evolution.

As for the distinction between humans and animals, I turn it the other way around, and think of it in terms of animal consciousness being undervalued.

Some large-brained animals, such as dolphins, orcas, and elephants show indications of very highly evolved consciousness and thought. Elephants are known to create art and pay respects to their dead. Many who have worked with dolphins consider them more spiritual than people, in general.

Some may say that life and consciousness cannot arise just from little bits of energy. I have a problem with the "just" in the above sentence. I think there's more to matter than we think. A couple hundred years ago nobody could explain chemical reactions middle-school kids now understand. Being unable to explain or understand something doesn't guarantee its nonexistence...
 

Aboleo

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Bonhomme said:
A couple hundred years ago nobody could explain chemical reactions middle-school kids now understand. Being unable to explain or understand something doesn't guarantee its nonexistence...

Well said. Absense of proof is not proof of absense. :up:

Oh, and Technical1 had some great points on enviromental factors and the effects that they might have on evolution. Perhaps I spoke incorrectly when I said that the "strongest and the smartest" were being favored by evolution. Charles Darwin himself once said that "It isn't the strongest or even the smartest of creatures that survive, but the one most adaptable to change."

Great thread.... let's keep it going.

Desert Fox, in your opinion where would you say that matter originated and how? It occurs to me that the probability of matter simply forming without the assistence of some kind of more subtle energy would be impossible. Einstein's famous equation, E = mc2, teaches us that matter and energy are interchangeable. Is it then possible that matter is energetic in nature?

And so I pose this question to whoever can answer... what came first, the chicken or the egg?... :p
 
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Obsidian

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Technical1 said:
Evolution doesn't require you to do anything. Be careful to distinguish between the process itself and (simplified) recommendations for behavior based on it, which may be dubious.
Technically, it doesn't require anything. Practically, it promotes a warped view of human nature which makes horish, promiscuous (and in many ways, CHUMPISH) behavior almost mandatory.

If humans are not naturally monogamous, what point is there in marriage/LTRs? If you aren't looking for a marriage/LTR, then you may as well settle for anyone who will give you a ONS. Rest assured that women will never think quite the same way; therefore you will be the desperate, needy one, and they will hold all the power.
 

Men frequently err by talking too much. They often monopolize conversations, droning on and on about topics that bore women to tears. They think they're impressing the women when, in reality, they're depressing the women.

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Obsidian

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I actually didn't see how your response was very applicable, Aboleo. You brought up ancient patriarchal times to explain how men could still be dominant despite the pursuit of sex, but the philosophy in those days had nothing to do with evolution. Back then people understood the natural order of things. Adulterers were executed. And the only people who had multiple wives were the ones who were very rich. They had to actually provide for all the wives -- and do so better than all their single competitors (otherwise the wife would just as soon mary a single guy).

Having multiple wives does allow a mild genetic extension for lusty males, but polygamy (again, limited by economics) is a far cry from modern polyamory.
 

Victory Unlimited

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<<<<<< This just in >>>>>>>


Inspired by the upcoming movie Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Archaeology Today held an amatuer "dig" contest. And the results are, that an anonymous group off the coast of California has excavated the partially, sand-covered, fossil records of some monkeys that we can ALL believe in:


...First EVER, PHOTOS!!!!! :whistle:
 

BoredDude

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Aboleo said:
Personally, I do believe in evolution. I have all the 'proof' I need when I look at the world around me, the way things grow and change. And really, that is all evolution means-- change. Nothing is static. Everything is constantly in motion, even the molecular structure of a rock never stands still. Given enough time, things can change so much that you might not recognize them anymore.

Now, I'm not saying that we came from monkeys, per se, at least not any that still exist... but it seems foolish to think that humans simply started appearing out of nowhere. After all, we humans have to eat, breath, sleep, sh!t, fvck and die like everything else on this planet. How are we really so different?

After I've said all that, I will state that I believe in the spiritual element as well. I see no reason why I couldn't have evolved from a 'simpler' life form and still have a soul. ;)

If you really believe in a god who is infinite and immortal and all knowing, why would it be such a big deal for him (or her, or 'it') just to sit and wait for the test results of his grand experiment called "life" even if it took a billion years (not that I believe thats what life is about, it's just an example to all of the bible thumpers out there in don juan land)?

Think about it.
Ha I didn't think I'd ever meet anyone with the same idea as I.
 

BoredDude

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Aboleo said:
And so I pose this question to whoever can answer... what came first, the chicken or the egg?... :p
Simpler life-forms evolved into chickens since it would be impossible for an egg to be created without a sperm interacting with an egg. So chickens and hens came first.
 

Tell her a little about yourself, but not too much. Maintain some mystery. Give her something to think about and wonder about when she's at home.

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Aboleo

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BoredDude said:
Simpler life-forms evolved into chickens since it would be impossible for an egg to be created without a sperm interacting with an egg. So chickens and hens came first.
Don't you mean c0cks and hens?

LoL.

You are correct to a certain extent, but it really is a trick question and the answer is as pointless as this discussion without acknowledging the possible metaphysical origins of life.
 

Desert Fox

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Aboleo said:
Desert Fox, in your opinion where would you say that matter originated and how? It occurs to me that the probability of matter simply forming without the assistence of some kind of more subtle energy would be impossible. Einstein's famous equation, E = mc2, teaches us that matter and energy are interchangeable. Is it then possible that matter is energetic in nature?
Aboleo, this is a great question and one that I am not knowledgable enough to answer. However, I may provide a few educated hypotheses on this matter.

The beginning of matter, I am not sure how it happened, but if I did, you would see me in Stockholm pretty soon I guarantee it :D.

I once heard a physicists speak about matter and dark-matter, which is like negative energy. Apparently, in the beginning, the universe of overlapped by dark matter and eventually the dark matter pulled away, which resulted in matter, and simple particles being formed. Like quarks and such. As we know, these small particles can combine to form elements like Hydrogen, which can form bigger elements via fusion reactions that require intense amounts of energy. I did not understand even 10% of his lecture, but that is all I know on the topic of the "creation" of matter. This is definitely a very interesting field to explore, and I would love to learn more about it through my studies.

Second, I agree perhaps something "assisted" matter, but I am convinced that assistance was not provided by an all-powerful divine being, or anything of that sort. For one, the presence of a divine creator does not answer the question at hand because it simply replaces the universe/Big Bang/anonymous energy with God/creator/etc. So the question is not answered, but rather just tweaked into "what made God/creator/etc."

This question is for creationists and evolutionists alike to delve into because neither side has adequately answered this question.

However, I support evolution because I have read and been exposed to much evidence through my studies that provides me at least some basis for what I believe in. It is grounded in evidence and fact.

MOREOVER, what separates science from creationism is that scientific FACTS are real facts because of these traits:

(A) They are applicable: you can take these facts and apply them to create something new. For example, with the evolution, we can take the facts we know, and apply them to the genomes of animals and species that are in the lineages we construct. We can apply this knowledge that is based in fact and coupled with this ....

(B) They are TESTABLE: Yes, your facts and claims must be testable by a community of experts. This is where the scientific method comes in. I don't know if everything or anything we know right now is absolutely right, but it has survived countless tests and based on statistics we must accept that it is not falsified.

An important thing I always try to remember in science is that a hypothesis is never "proved," but rather, we can at most "fail to reject" a hypothesis. When the rejection rate is extremely low, we take it to be true. This is sthe beauty of the scientific method. It is based on facts, and tests, and therefore, is liberal and open to change and eternal progress.

I cannot say the same for faith-based arguments and theories that are grounded in rhetoric and empty beliefs.

When I put these two things on a scale, it tips overwhelmingly to the side of evolution and science, and this is what I believe.

As for the matter question, check out that link I posted for Obsidian about the origins of the universe and such.
 

Desert Fox

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Obsidian said:
And because you're such an assh0le (who needs to be banned, imo), I'm tempted not to read the rest of your post.
That's what the church said about Galileo too (and I think you should be banned too, imo). I was there so here's how the trial went:

Church: Galileo man, you're such an AZZHOLE. Why are you throwing our lives off track with all this reasoning and logic?

Galileo: Because I care about the truth.

Church: Well, we're going to ban you.

Galileo: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!

Church: Retract your beliefs or you will be banished.

Galileo: Ok FINE, I retract my beliefs.

Church: Good. Take him away.

Galileo: E pur si muove (and yet it moves.)
 

belividere

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Last Man Standing said:
I'm tired of all this monkey business, darwin evolution nonsense propagated on this forum, that is misleading the young impressionable minds here, and perpetuating The Matrix of lies and deceit!!! State your stance and I will let you know the errors of your irrational thinking, if it is irrational!!

I ask that no one else respond to any premises posed by the darwin religious zealots - I'll handle it alone!!
I haven't read on yet (figuring that this thread will be closed soon anyways based on the topic and I dont want to waste my time), but as a scientist I am curious as to how human evolution would have anything to do at all with the hor matrix. Riddle me that one LMS since you started this thread. Wouldn't the hor-homo agenda have less to do with evolution as a theory then sociology, psychology, or marketing? Evolution is a theory that is fundamentally based on the changes that occur over thousands to millions of generations (i.e. extremely long periods of time) while sociological changes like womens lib are recent and more prominent in debates over the hor-home-lms agenda.

So basically (without reading further) I am quite confused as to how any part of evolution has anything to do with the matrix. Maybe you are so confused by your pre-conceived natural order of things that you fail to realize the reality of nature and society in order to convince yourself that you always right no matter the argument.

And if you want to argue the scientific basis of evolution I would ask that you provide a response to mendellian genetics, viral/bacterial polymorphisms, genetic homology, symbiotic relationships of bacteria and eukaryotes, fossil records, carbon (and several other radioisotope) dating.

The world spun on its axis long before the hor-homo agenda ever existed and will for a long time after. The scientific evidence that evolution has occured outweighs the creationist evidence. And egads there has even been substantial proof that homosexuality is genetic in nature.

So lms will you actually answer any of my arguments put forward or will you continue to dodge the answers to questions that you posed yourself?
 

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Desert Fox said:
An important thing I always try to remember in science is that a hypothesis is never "proved," but rather, we can at most "fail to reject" a hypothesis. When the rejection rate is extremely low, we take it to be true. This is the beauty of the scientific method. It is based on facts, and tests, and therefore, is liberal and open to change and eternal progress.
That is as good a synopsis of the scientific method as I've seen anytime lately.
 

Never try to read a woman's mind. It is a scary place. Ignore her confusing signals and mixed messages. Assume she is interested in you and act accordingly.

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belividere said:
And egads there has even been substantial proof that homosexuality is genetic in nature.
Not only that, present throughout nature.

It is difficult for me to see the logic in this hatred of homosexuals. Sure, on a large scale, the species would not survive if all sex acts were gay, but the % of people who are gay has not been large enough for that to be an issue anytime in recent history, at least not in a negative sense.
 

iqqi

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Last Man Standing said:
I ask that no one else respond to any premises posed by the darwin religious zealots - I'll handle it alone!!
This is my second favorite line from this thread. Hilarious!

However the news breaks brought to you by VU are awesome. This thread has it all!!! Good job, LMS.
 

Technical1

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belividere said:
....but as a scientist I am curious as to how human evolution would have anything to do at all with the hor matrix.
Theres just something about the combination of real scientific terminology, in this debate, with words coined at SoSuave to avoid its expletive filter, that I find hilarious.

I'm really curious now:
What do you guys suppose the evolutionary roots of the homo-hor matrix could be? Or if the homo-hor matrix is gods doing, why did he put us in the matrix?
 

Tao walker 2005

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evolution and creationism are not mutually exclusive... but just so you know: evolution is not a theory.. its a dead set fact. This doesn't rule out intelligent design though because evolution is just a process, not a cause a priori.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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ketostix said:
Evolutionist typically first shun the concept of intelligent design because they disagree with with the latters view of the natural order of things. Then they latch on to a theory that is hardly proven and they accept it almost as a religion to support their version of the natural order and to "disprove" the alternative version of design. All the while claiming it's more scientific.
I don't think that evolution is necessarily a debatable phenomenon. Evolution happens, deal with it. Environmental selection happens, deal with it. What is at issue is the origin of life - this is what pisses off both sides. My concern with the Intelligent Design crowd is that they bastardized what William Paley was suggesting (a watch implies a watchmaker) to be what they wanted it to be; a logical argument for a divine creator. The problem with their argument is that they slough off ID for what it was meant to be and co-opted it as a religious conviction. Creationism and Intelligent Design in it's purest form are mutually exclusive. The real question is "what intelligence was doing the designing?" It could be God, it could be an advanced race that seeded our planet millions of years ago, it could've been another race of humans who colonized this planet and simply lost track of themselves, we don't know, but the creationist force fits this ideal to his liking and calls it evidence.

And of course I can also argue the counter to this; maybe we did come from a common ancestor to monkeys, but who's to say we weren't genetically altered (either divinely or by extra-terrestrial design) at some step to actualize our full potential as humans? It's just as valid a hypothesis as creationism. Perhaps the better reasoning is, we were designed TO evolve.
 

You essentially upped your VALUE in her eyes by showing her that, if she wants you, she has to at times do things that you like to do. You are SOMETHING after all. You are NOT FREE. If she wants to hang with you, it's going to cost her something — time, effort, money.

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