Lowering standards

[Die Hard]

Slick, you're simply tapping into the Looks vs. Money/status/confidence debate, which has been done to death if u ask me...

Many guys who are a 6 in looks could easily raise their value to 7 if they work out, learn to dress well, raise their self-esteem, learn to act with confidence, learn to be ****y&funny etc.

After they achieved all that, they can absolutely get HB7's or HB7,5's (maybe even a few HB8's). Can they get HB9's after they worked on all these things? Probably not...

But if we were to give those guys YOUR advice, they would simply keep aiming at the HB6's coz that's the best they can get AT THE CURRENT TIME...

It's the same as telling a poor guy from the ghetto that he should just be happy with a job flipping burgers at McDonalds coz that's the best he can get and he would be stupid to aim higher... Yes, if he has no education at that moment, he should not aim higher AT THAT MOMENT. But if he gets himself a good education and works his azz off to get himself some papers, he can definitely aim higher than that burger job...

Guys who just discovered the Red pill, who just discovered game and all the things we teach at SoSuave... Those guys have the ability to significantly raise their chances with women who are 1 or 2 points above them in the looks department. Once they've put in all the work and have improved themselves in so many aspects, THEN it's time to determine their limit as to how far up the HB scale they can be succesful with... And AT THAT POINT they have to be realistic about that limit, indeed!

But BEFORE they put in all that work, it would be bad advice to tell them they should just accept that they can only get girls who are at the same level as them in the looks department.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[guru1000]

Die Hard with the win.

I would even go further to state that any man can add up to 4 pts on the looks scale should he desire, by attaining a lean muscular physique and augmenting facial aesthetics (discussed in the offshore women thread).

Never settle. Improve instead.

 

[Fatal Jay]

banging mud ducks on the regular is the reason why most of you dudes are married to whales with haircuts like men.

Not me ever. And I haven't been a virgin since sophomore year in highschool.

Don't let pressure lower your standards because you internalize failure. You telling yourself you can't get better.

Standards is based on integrity.

 

[Amazing]

just going to bounce few things at no one in particular.


you must have a feedback loop and observe it, and TRUST IT. if you think you can get 8's (or should), yet when you go out, you can't close 8s, but you seem to be able to close 6s continuously, you should understand what needs adjusting.

it will be easier for a guy who's getting 7s and 8s to talk to 7s and 8s and get more 7s and 8s.

Sex and love are two different things. If you simply want sex, and don't care much for her liking you, you can clean up. I've knows guys like this, threesomes with fat chicks, ****ing ok girls, etc.. just as long as they keep banging once every few days thats what they need. If you need the girl to like you, realize that, cool your jets, and recognize it's worth it to go for it, so go for it while accepting you can fail and it will suck, but you must give it a shot.

if you're above 7.5 you can have insane experiences lowering standards. But imo only a man gives energy and effort to get laid always (unless you're talking to a girl who wants to get laid bad and you're just chill), and looking back, it's better to achieve things as a man.

 

[Slickster]

Good post Die Hard. I'm just not sure how you managed to misunderstand what I have written.

I'm certainly all for self improvement and doing the best you possibly can in every pursuit. That is the DJ mindset.

I'll try and make it more clear...

Slick, you're simply tapping into the Looks vs. Money/status/confidence debate, which has been done to death if u ask me...

I did mention the fact that having money, power, fame, etc. can give a guy an extra advantage. However, I'm not sure this is the looks versus money/status/confidence thing. This is a high standards vs. lower standards debate if anything. (Notice I said "lower" and not "low". I'm not advising anyone to fvck ugly chicks here.)

Many guys who are a 6 in looks could easily raise their value to 7 if they work out, learn to dress well, raise their self-esteem, learn to act with confidence, learn to be ****y&funny etc.

Of course! The never ending path of self improvement. Love it!

After they achieved all that, they can absolutely get HB7's or HB7,5's (maybe even a few HB8's). Can they get HB9's after they worked on all these things? Probably not...

Why not HB9's? It's possible for sure. I've done it! I'm just pointing out that it's going to be rare and your success rate is going to go down the further up you reach for women on the attractiveness scale. HB9's are more rare to find and more difficult to get. If you're getting no where always going for 9's then it's time to re-evaluate.

But if we were to give those guys YOUR advice, they would simply keep aiming at the HB6's coz that's the best they can get AT THE CURRENT TIME...

No I NEVER said that guys should limit themselves to HB6's. I actually said if you are a 7 you should expect to attract similar. (ie. 6's, 7's and probably a few 8's too.) The point is to be realistic about where you stand on the scale. If you believe yourself to be a 7 and you aren't easily hooking up with other 7's then you need to realize you probably aren't a 7 (for whatever reason). You need to lower your standards (a little), experience some success, learn, and work up from there. As I said earlier there's nothing wrong with aiming higher and you should always do your best. Just be real with yourself. Not everybody is going to get a HB9 or 10 all the time.

Guys who just discovered the Red pill, who just discovered game and all the things we teach at SoSuave... Those guys have the ability to significantly raise their chances with women who are 1 or 2 points above them in the looks department. Once they've put in all the work and have improved themselves in so many aspects, THEN it's time to determine their limit as to how far up the HB scale they can be succesful with... And AT THAT POINT they have to be realistic about that limit, indeed!

Yes I agree but how many years does all that self improvement and transformation take? What does the guy do in the meantime as the years go by? When he's at a party and a HB6 wants to fvck him should the guy blow her off even though he's a 6 himself but hoping to someday be an 8?

But BEFORE they put in all that work, it would be bad advice to tell them they should just accept that they can only get girls who are at the same level as them in the looks department.

I never said that anyone should accept anything. I'm not sure where you are reading that. I said "expect". Not "accept".

The entire premise of my posts (and I believe the OPs) is that if you're not getting any action at all then you need to re-evaluate. Adjust your standards, use that experience to your advantage, and work your way up. Success breeds more success. Too much failure leads to frustration.

Just like every skill you start off at a lower level and eventually gain experience and improve. How the heck is a guy who is a 6 going to handle HB9's if he has very little experience with any other women? You don't just hop in a Ferrari and go. You need to learn how to drive first. There aren't many pursuits in life where you can just decide to read and learn and then with very little experience show up and expect to be the boss.

 

[Slickster]

Interesting....

This entire thread played itself out right in front of my eyes just last night.

I got a late invite to an after party for a friends wedding. I dragged another single friend (Al) along with the idea that there would probably be some single cuties there. We showed up after the reception and the dance floor was packed. People were partying and the vibe was great. As we walked in and greeted our friends I noticed I was getting a lot looks from some very cute women. As I looked around there was a very lopsided ratio of girls to guys. The bride and groom came over to talk to us and almost right away the bride started match-making and wanted to introduce my buddy Al to some of her single friends. Apparently there were a bunch single chicks there and only a few single guys. We've shown late to a pond full of hungry fish. Cool.

As I'm talking to a few other guys I hear "You gotta see this chick that Stu is hooking up with tonight! She's fvckin' hot!!"

My buddy Stu has recently come out of an LTR with a HB8. Stu is one of those guys who years ago managed to snag a hot babe when in his prime. I'd say at that time he was probably just slightly above average in terms of looks. Anyhow over the years Stu really let himself go. Beer gut, stopped exercising and playing sports, losing his hair and generally having age catch up to him. He's not looking so good these days and I know he's been a little down about the break-up too. His ex, the HB8 still looks great. I don't really know the details of why they split but just looking at the two of them you know she could do a lot better.

Anyhow I see Stu talking to this babe. She's definitely hot. Dolled right up and dressed super slutty. She's probably a HB8 in regular clothes and no make-up but last night she was looking like a 9 for sure. Smoking! My initial thought is good for Stu, but then as I watch over the next couple hours it's pretty obvious that this chick is an extreme attention wh0re. Sure, she's giving Stu some good signals but she's doing it to a bunch of other guys too. In fact she's working the entire room and flirting with ALL the guys. Basically whenever one of the single guys was talking to another chick she would come over and the competition was on. It didn't take long to figure out that she had my buddy Stu and two other dudes fully wrapped in her web. Dancing close with different guys, etc.

A group of us went outside at one point to smoke a joint and I met a really cute chick named Laura. A brunette with striking blue eyes and very big boobs. A total sweetheart to talk to. Very friendly and funny too. Probably a HB7.

A little while later the Daft Punk song "Get Lucky" comes on and everyone moves back inside to dance again. Laura and I are dancing with another couple and she says "This song is so true." We all laugh as she is basically hinting she wants to get laid. It's times like this I wish I was single . On the dance floor it's so easy to figure out which chicks are single just based on eye contact alone. Lot's of good energy on the dance floor.

Anyhow the next chance I get I tell my buddy Al that Laura is open for business. He takes note but he is also working another blonde cutie. I also get a chance to talk to Stu as he is staring across the room at HB9 talking to one of the other chumps. I try to be a good wing and tell him "Hey see that HB7 Laura over there? She's definitely DTF tonite." He looks and says, "Nah! I got something else going on" and motions to HB9. I say, "Ya, you really think that's going anywhere?" He says, "Oh it's on baby! I just gotta get rid of chump boy over there." I leave it at that.

As the night goes on things start getting a little sideways. Everyone is getting very drunk and the party and dance floor are starting to die down and people are leaving. Things come to a head regarding HB9. A fight almost breaks out between Stu and one of the other single guys that HB9 has been flirting with heavily. It was a real buzz kill and I felt bad for the bride and groom having an otherwise great night end on a sour note.

Shortly after I watch an entire table of girls with sad looks on their faces get up and leave and hop into a cab together. I assume most of them were single. One of the girls was the blonde cutie that Al had been gaming. Al quickly switches attention to Laura though and Stu is looking for HB9 who somehow snuck out during the commotion.

The entire place is clearing out now. People are saying good byes getting rides or waiting for cabs in the parking lot. Stu announces to everyone that they are welcome to come to his place for the after-afterparty. A bunch of us go there and keep partying late into the night. Al and Laura seem to really hit it off and they eventually disappear together. There's one other girl there who seems to be single. She's probably a HB6 dressed up as a 7 though. I'm assuming she's there for Stu because he's the only other single guy at this point. He barely acknowledges her though and continues to talk about HB9. I end up borrowing Stu's bike and riding home quite drunk and exhausted from a really fun night of partying.

The next day I talk to Al and he is happy as a clam. He had a great night with Laura and he sounds quite smitten. She seems pretty damn cool. I hope to see her around more. I went to Stu's to drop off his bike and he seems frustrated and he's still talking about HB9 who he will probably never see again.

So who has the winning recipe here gents? Al or Stu?

I can fully understand Stu's situation. He's getting great attention from this super hot babe. His recent ex girlfriend was pretty damn hot too so I'm sure in his mind he truly believes he can score more women of this caliber. I'm not buying it though. I think Stu may have to lower his standards a couple of points at this stage. Whether he will I don't know for sure. He was with his ex for quite a while and I haven't really seen single Stu in action for a long time.

Al on the other hand did great in my opinion. He chatted up HB9 for a bit too. (So did I) She was the typical hot chick who knows exactly how hot she is and doesn't have a whole lot to say. I don't know for sure Al's thought process but obviously he went for something that appeared to be more of a sure thing (the blonde). When that didn't work he lowered his standards and still found success with a very cute and cool chick.

I realize that the DJ mindset is to always be improving and striving for better. I fully agree with that ideal. However if you are setting the bar so high that you yourself can't even reach it then you do nothing but stagnate.

 

[guru1000]

So who has the winning recipe here gents? Al or Stu?

Nice story.

Stu wins. Here’s why.

Your question presumes the girl is the goal. I argue that self-improvement is the goal; the girl is the byproduct.

You mentioned Stu is aged, not taken very good care of.

Beer gut, stopped exercising and playing sports, losing his hair and generally having age catch up to him

Why did Stu fall apart physically? Because Stu was in an LTR with an 8, thus failing to setting the bar high enough for himself, as his sexual “duty” was accomplished. Isn't this why most (not all) men look like crap after 5-10 years of marriage?
So Al gets the girl, but has less reason to improve. Conversely, Stu who is single and will continue to be for some time has greater motivation to improve than Al. Sexual energy--although not the only motivator--is one of the most powerful motivators, as it is biologically hardwired.

Stu reminds me a little of me. When I was married, my looks went to crvp. I stopped working out, started balding, aging. After dumping my wife, and desiring only 9s, I had every motivation to get back on the saddle. One year and dozens of improvements later, my unrelenting desire for 9s forged my reality of 9s.

I envy Stu. I also respect him for having the balls to set his value high enough to whereas he will not settle for anything short of the 9 club. Sure, he will be welcoming lots of disappointment and rejection along the way. Such is life and a necessary component to catalyze his improving. That is, assuming if he has the testicular fortitude and resiliency to transcend the disappointments and continue improving. I have a hunch that he will.

 

[zekko]

Nice story.

Stu wins. Here’s why.

Your question presumes the girl is the goal. I argue that self-improvement is the goal; the girl is the byproduct.

I agree that it's a good story.

I disagree that Stu is the winner however, and here's why:
I think there's eminently more value in a nice, drama free HB7 with no issues than there is in an HB9 attention wh0re.

 

[guru1000]

I think there's eminently more value in a nice, drama free HB7 with no issues than there is in an HB9 attention wh0re.

Subject matter fallacy.

To make it clearer, I will type in caps and underline it:

WOMEN ARE NOT THE GOAL.

 

[zekko]

Subject matter fallacy.

To make it clearer, I will type in caps and underline it:

WOMEN ARE NOT THE GOAL.

Yeah, I got that.
I just don't see how he is "self improving" more by chasing the sleazy attention ho. You're saying he's setting his sites higher by going after the HB9, but I'm saying she's the equivalent of going after a filthy wh0re. So to my mind, he's actually setting his sites lower. Al showed more self respect by realizing her true undesirable nature.

 

[guru1000]

Yeah, I got that.
I just don't see how he is "self improving" more by chasing the sleazy attention ho. You're saying he's setting his sites higher by going after the HB9, but I'm saying she's the equivalent of going after a filthy wh0re. So to my mind, he's actually setting his sites lower. Al showed more self respect by realizing her true undesirable nature.

You look to his actions. I look to his motivations, and how those motivations will forge his future.

A filthy whvre; maybe, maybe not. We shouldn't be so quick to pass judgment. Without the HB9, he (an 8 slayer) sinks into complacency. She's an image; a tool; a stepping stone to catalyze his improving to attain the throne. The 9 has her place; the 7 has her place. They just prompt different motivations.

His rejection is a WIN, not a loss.

 

[Slickster]

WOMEN ARE NOT THE GOAL.

I don't have time to respond properly but I will say this...

For me happiness is the goal.

Fvcking a HB9 is NOT going to make me any happier than fvcking a HB7. She may turn me on more but in the end my orgasm is the same and they are both just women who eat, drink and sh!t like the rest of us.

Fvcking lots and lots of HB7's and 8's is going to make me much happier than fvcking the a once in a blue moon HB9. Obviously I'm going to fvck and enjoy any HB9 who comes along too but we all know they are rare and harder to come by.

Placing a lofty standard on yourself to only fvck 9's is nothing more than an ego trip. Possibly similar to only driving fancy cars, owning expensive houses or other materialistic pursuits. True happiness does not come from such things.

Sorry but you may say that women are not the goal but in a round about way that is exactly what you are making them out to be. A HB7's pvssy is exactly the same as a HB9's.

This is an interesting discussion and it makes me wonder if this is the reason so many guys struggle to make any progress here on Sosuave and for negative outlook on women in general. It may be the reason websites like this even exist.

 

[guru1000]

Placing a lofty standard on yourself to only fvck 9's is nothing more than an ego trip. Possibly similar to only driving fancy cars, owning expensive houses or other materialistic pursuits. True happiness does not come from such things.

I've been a rich man and I've been a poor man. And I choose rich every time.

--Jordan Belfort

Similarly, I've banged 7s and I've banged 9s. And I choose 9s every time (to fvck). For LTRs, compatibility is more important than looks.

Notwithstanding:

Don't shame men for pursuing 9s.
Don't shame men for pursuing fancy cars.
Don't shame men for pursuing expensive houses.
Don't shame men for pursuing other materialistic pursuits.

Possession of these items, alone, does not make you happy. But the thrill of the hunt, the challenge, and the win certainly do.

 

[Desdinova]

Not so long ago, I kept myself locked to certain standards when it came to what the women looked like. After that last bytch treated me like an idiot, I had to re-evaluate what I was dating as well as the importance of women in my life. I kept myself single for 7 months while doing that.

The conclusion I came to is that trashy women (which is an extremely high percentile of western women) are NOT worth the time, effort and energy to heavily pursue. Also, any woman who has a 5hit load of red flags is NOT going to offer any value to my life. If I need sex, I'm better off fvcking my hand than fvcking a drama-filled cvnt.

What I'm now looking for is a woman who actually adds value to my life. If there aren't any women out there who will add value to my life, then I shall remain single. Currently, the woman I'm with is eager to take care of me, bring me stuff, and give me massages. She's not a model, but she's not ugly either. That's good enough for me to keep around.

Instead of banging hot women to impress my friends, I just want a woman to add value to my life. It's simple, and all I really want. My time and energy is better spent elsewhere than pursuing dumb bytches who think they should own mankind.

 

[Slickster]

I've been a rich man and I've been a poor man. And I choose rich every time.

--Jordan Belfort

Similarly, I've banged 7s and I've banged 9s. And I choose 9s every time (to fvck). For LTRs, compatibility is more important than looks.

Notwithstanding:

Don't shame men for pursuing 9s.
Don't shame men for pursuing fancy cars.
Don't shame men for pursuing expensive houses.
Don't shame men for pursuing other materialistic pursuits.

Possession of these items, alone, does not make you happy. But the thrill of the hunt, the challenge, and the win certainly do.

Sorry Guru that quote is kind of silly and doesn't really fit the debate. Obviously everyone would choose to be rich rather than poor. Obviously every dude in a room full of willing women is going to choose the hottest one. That isn't the point here at all. Maybe you aren't understanding something here.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I'm picking up from those who won't lower their standards is this:

A guy (who is a 7) is in a room full of HB7's who want to fvck him. He has his choice of women here but due his high standards (will only fvck HB9's) he should just walk away.

Is this what you guys are saying?

If so can someone please explain to me how that possibly helps a guy who is learning the ropes? How is that good advice for a forum like this? What reason does a HB9 have to screw a dude who is a 7 with no skills or money/power/fame etc. There is no connection there. Your theories don't match reality.

The only reasons I've heard for maintaining such high standards is basically for bragging rights and attention. Or maybe so your self esteem doesn't suffer by being seen with someone of your own caliber. These are ego trips.

P.S. I'm not shaming anyone here. If you want a better analogy what I'm hearing from you guys is that if you can't drive a Ferrari you'd rather walk. If you can't live in a mansion you'd rather be homeless.

What was my buddy Stu supposed to do in the above example when the HB9 disappeared? Run home and do sit-ups and read a book about self improvement? The guy is probably a 5 or 6 at best himself and he had HB7's willing and ready to take home. He failed IMO.

 

[guru1000]

A guy (who is a 7) is in a room full of HB7's who want to fvck him. He has his choice of women here but due his high standards (will only fvck HB9's) he should just walk away.

Is this what you guys are saying?

Herein is what we call a straw man. You give the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced. You wouldn't have to commit such fallacy if you had strength in your position.

Let's get to the crux of the matter:

When you tell someone to lower their standards, you are essentially stating, "You are not good enough to meet the standards you seek."

1. What right do you or anyone have to tell another man to lower his standards?
   
2. Is it possible for a man who has super-high standards to improve himself to attain the standards he seeks?

 

[zekko]

Guru, you had the self discipline to reverse your decline. Maybe this Stu guy will just continue his downslide and get fatter and sloppier. Who knows? If it was easy to live up to your potential, every guy would do it.

I view attention wh0res the way a lot of guys here view BPDs - poison, toxic people who should be stayed away from.

A word about ratings:
As I've said before, I place the vast, vast majority of hot attractive women in the "7" category. I have only known TWO girls that I rated HB9s, and both of those girls were RUINED by the jaw dropping amount of male attention that they received. And I'm almost as miserly passing out "8" ratings. Very rare. I might give them a 7.8 or a 7.9 if they're really hot.

One man's 7 might be another man's 9. We've seen guys post pictures of what they call a 9 here, and the next poster will come along and say "Pfft, she's a 5 at best". Which leads me to a rule I have which takes some of the subjectivity out of it: If a woman is not attracting an unusual amount of male attention, she is either a hermit, or she is not really a 9.

I think any guy would be happy banging a nice healthy 7. If not, I would suspect their rating system works differently than mine, since as I said, I put almost every hot, attractive women in the "7" category.

 

[guru1000]

Zekko, although you bring solid ancillary points, I would like to limit the discussion to the subject matter of this thread, which is lowering one's standards.

I'm interested in your thoughts to the two questions I asked Slickster above.

 

[zekko]

1. What right do you or anyone have to tell another man to lower his standards?
None, but this is a message board so we do give our opinions.
And I don't think I've suggested anyone lower their standards. Maybe redefine them.

2. Is it possible for a man who has super-high standards to improve himself to attain the standards he seeks?
Possible, yes. How probable it is depends on the person, his attributes, his determination, and how realistic his standards are. For example, a guy may set becoming an NFL football player as his goal, or standard. It is certainly possible he will meet that goal, but then again only a small percentage succeed, so it's also entirely possible, maybe even probable that he will fail.

 

[guru1000]

1. What right do you or anyone have to tell another man to lower his standards?
None, but this is a message board so we do give our opinions.
And I don't think I've suggested anyone lower their standards. Maybe redefine them.

Good. Evaluating and defining your standards are the hallmark of a DJ.

2. Is it possible for a man who has super-high standards to improve himself to attain the standards he seeks?
Possible, yes. How probable it is depends on the person, his attributes, his determination, and how realistic his standards are. For example, a guy may set becoming an NFL football player as his goal, or standard. It is certainly possible he will meet that goal, but then again only a small percentage succeed, so it's also entirely possible, maybe even probable that he will fail.

I'm not going to go with your NFL example, as chances of securing such position I can only assume to be 1 out of 50,000 or so.

Let's revert back to Stu:

Stu is a 5/6. Stu desires 8s (his previous gf) and 9s. Stu wants to be the best Stu he can be and so makes the following capital improvements:

1) Stu is balding. So he's gets on RU/avodart/minoxidil, maybe even a hair transplant (depending on the extent of his balding).

2) Stu is out of shape. Stu proceeds to build the body of a Greek god.

3) Stu is average looking. Stu decides to invest 5K-10K into his face to improve facial aesthetics.

4) Stu secures a wardrobe fit for a king.

5) Stu gets a few facial chemical peels to even out skin tone and for youthful-looking skin.

6) Stu has slightly crooked teeth that could use slight cosmetic work. Stu gets Invisalign to straighten his teeth. Stu also professionally whitens his teeth.

What are the chances of Stu securing his desired 8/9 if he puts in enough effort now? I'd say close to 100%. What would you say?

The question is, are all the capital improvements above compensatory for the life Stu desires? That's for the individual to decide. But one thing is certain: Never tell anyone to lower their standards because they are not good enough to meet those standards (not directed at you Zekko). Instead, tell them if they wish to meet those high standards, they will need to put in the work and improve.

Rereading OP's original post: Sure, while you are making those improvements, to eradicate the scarcity dilemma, welcome all into your harem. Being abundant in plates, will bring you more and higher caliber plates.