low conversion rate after 1st dates

[MikeEdward1973]

So, I've learned a ton on this board, and put a lot of it to good use.

I go on a ton of 1st dates. A lot of that traffic is from match.com. I'd say I go on about 15 'first dates' a month, and I do the basics very well.

I'm frustrated with the number of women I end up seeing again after those first dates. A patter has emerged: We meet up at a hip/cool bar; usually talk and hang out for a couple hours; have a couple drinks; sometimes make out afterward.

But - a lot of the time, that's the last I see of her.

I do have some very good moments, and do emerge with some good options each time I go on these big dating 'binges,' so to speak. So it would not be accurate to say that it's not working for me.

With that said, I really feel like I could be doing this better. Feel like I'm missing something.

For you guys that use match.com, and do so with a high level of success, do you think I'm making a mistake spending 2 hours on a first date? Should I be capping it around 30 minutes or so?

Thanks!

 

[guru1000]

What type and frequency of communication takes place after the date? Who initiates?

 

[Colossus]

Mike-

Doesn't sound like you are doing anything wrong, I think this is just the nature of online dating. I had really similar experiences when I was doing the online thing (I used okcupid). I would easily set up tons of first dates, we would go to a cool little lounge or a park or something, chat for a couple hours, and sometimes make out. Usually that was it, but I'd say about one in 5 would go to date 2 or 3.

Now if YOU are the one initiating and calling after these dates, and your follow-up rate is low, there could be something you are doing wrong. But if it just doesn't pan out naturally; i.e. neither of you make an attempt to call each other, then it's simply a case of no mutual interest. I wouldn't take that personally.

Might help if you give us some more details about the follow-up events.

 

[MikeEdward1973]

Might help if you give us some more details about the follow-up events.

What type and frequency of communication takes place after the date? Who initiates?

Good questions.

So, the answer is that my follow-up depends on how the date goes.

If I'm attracted to her, we hang out for a couple hours, and have a couple drinks, and we make out, when we're parting ways, I'll ask her to do something. Either I'll tell her to shoot me her phone number if I don't already have it, and even if I do have it, I'll tell her to send me her regular email address, since I only have the match/eHarmony one.

The only reason I ask them to do this is to detect the level of interest. If they do this 'homework,' I'll follow up. If I follow up, I'll usually get a 2nd date about 1/3 of the time.

Now, if I have her number already, and she's really attractive, sometimes I'll call her anyway, even if she doesn't do her 'homework.' In these cases, and this is happening roughly 50% of the time, they just go silent. I only call once, leave a short, usually funny message in reference to something we talked about during the date, tell her to give me a call back. But, like I said, they rarely do.

So, to break it down, 25% of the time I'm not interested, and don't follow up;

25% of the time they do their 'home work,' of of that 25%, I'll usually get a 2nd date about 1/3 the time. I'll call them usually 3 days later.

50% of the time, and this is the part that is really frustrating me, they won't circle back to me with either email address or phone number, and if I take the initiative and follow up anyway, it's almost a given they're not going to respond.

In all of the scenarios I'm referring to above, they do fall into the category of 2 hours/2 drinks/makeout afterward, which I've learned is generally the formula for detecting sufficient interest level on the 1st date for there to be a 2nd.

 

[squirrels]

Off the Internets, I'd be going for the lay on the first "date". Or better yet, don't do "dates" at all.

Even though Internet dating has become vastly more popular, NO ONE, and NO GIRL especially, has any expectation of meeting a "Mr. Right" or dateable mate, on the Internet.

Even if you make a good first impression, even if you BLOW HER AWAY with your charm, she will always have that thought in the back of her head that you are an "Internet guy". She can't brag to her friends about an "Internet guy", because they will just shake their heads. Plus, she always has that question in the back of her mind as to "whether you're putting on a show"...and "why you haven't found a girlfriend IRL".


Each progressive encounter, a woman expects to escalate. She knows that most men expect "play" by date #3, for example, so while a first date is harmless, a second date is not-so-harmless, and a third date is practically a sexual contract. When she's thinking about whether she'll go out with you on a first date, she's thinking, "Does he seem fun enough that I won't be bored or frightened meeting him?" On date #2 and #3, she is thinking, "if I end up f**king him, will it be a good enough time for me to justify to myself being all slvtty so soon?"

There are two ways she'll answer, "yes":

1) She thinks you're "boyfriend material" and wants to lock you down, which she's likely NOT going to do on the second or third encounter. Why? Because, you're still "Internet-guy", as discussed above. She doesn't trust you enough to invest in you. So that's ruled out.

2) She has such a fun time with you, or she's so relaxed and laid back around you, or she's so p***y-dripping wet with you, that the entire experience is something she wants MORE of.



First of all, stop looking at it like a DATE. Be CASUAL when you meet women you connected with online. Most women aren't looking to "date" online guys, because it requires an INVESTMENT. Truth is, yeah, it's a "date", but they don't look at it that way. To them, it's more of, "Hey, he's cute, why not hang out with him and see if he's fun?"

That's the way YOU should be looking at it. If you make it into a DATE, you will lose out, because NOTHING you can do on the first meet-up will relieve you of "Internet-guy status". If it's not really a "date", then you avoid the pitfalls of trying to get the woman via #1 above.

Chat with them a little online, then one night, when you're "bored", ask her if she wants to come up and watch a movie/play video games. Or if she's home, ask her if she wants to hit up a bar...or a Dave & Buster's...or a strip club! (yes, women WILL do that) Don't "ask her out", just say you want to do X and tell her to come with you. "It'll be fun!"

After you've hung out with her and/or f**ked her a couple of times, then (and typically ONLY then), she will start to accept you as a "cool guy" and lift the label of "Internet guy". THEN you can start considering the boyfriend/girlfriend thing.

Failures to convert on the Internet, or any "random dating medium", is not out-of-the-ordinary, so even if you do EVERYTHING right, you're going to have some girls that just aren't that into you, and don't be surprised if you find that YOU are just not into some of the girls you meet.

But even if you're not, at least try to get in her pants.

 

[Colossus]

Good questions.

So, the answer is that my follow-up depends on how the date goes.

If I'm attracted to her, we hang out for a couple hours, and have a couple drinks, and we make out, when we're parting ways, I'll ask her to do something. Either I'll tell her to shoot me her phone number if I don't already have it, and even if I do have it, I'll tell her to send me her regular email address, since I only have the match/eHarmony one.

The only reason I ask them to do this is to detect the level of interest. If they do this 'homework,' I'll follow up. If I follow up, I'll usually get a 2nd date about 1/3 of the time.

Now, if I have her number already, and she's really attractive, sometimes I'll call her anyway, even if she doesn't do her 'homework.' In these cases, and this is happening roughly 50% of the time, they just go silent. I only call once, leave a short, usually funny message in reference to something we talked about during the date, tell her to give me a call back. But, like I said, they rarely do.

So, to break it down, 25% of the time I'm not interested, and don't follow up;

25% of the time they do their 'home work,' of of that 25%, I'll usually get a 2nd date about 1/3 the time. I'll call them usually 3 days later.

50% of the time, and this is the part that is really frustrating me, they won't circle back to me with either email address or phone number, and if I take the initiative and follow up anyway, it's almost a given they're not going to respond.

In all of the scenarios I'm referring to above, they do fall into the category of 2 hours/2 drinks/makeout afterward, which I've learned is generally the formula for detecting sufficient interest level on the 1st date for there to be a 2nd.

Ok, ok. In my opinion you are going about this a bit too eagerly.

Like squirrels said, despite the popularity of online dating, there is still a stigma attached. Girls get reallllly sketched out about guys they meet online, usually for erroneous reasons. All it takes is one of her friends telling her about so-and-so who went on a date with this guy she met online and he pulled out his pecker right there at her doorstep.

So you have to keep in mind many chicks do this with no intentions of following up. I know it doesn't make sense, they just do. Also, asking for her personal email or cell # after the date is a little too eager, I think. She should be offering this to you, usually after you mention seeing each other again sometime. It's all in the delivery, my friend. Never say you'd like to see her again, or that you'll call her. Further, DO NOT leave a message. If she doesn't pick up, hang up. Voice mails convey desperation, even if you're not.

If I at least had a cursory interest in her, I would usually end the date with this: "I had a nice time. We should do it again sometime." Then I'd walk off about my business, all with bulletproof confidence and a smile. THEN, after a couple of days I would usually hear from them via text or email, and we'd set something up. If not, I would shoot her a text or email--very brief--and if I didn't receive a response, instant next.

Because of the "stigma" factor, you cant approach it as a date. Romantic and/or sexual interest hasn't been established yet. I always just told them I was new to the city and wanted to meet some people, which was true.

Women use online dating because they are either average in looks, too inhibited to approach men, are divorced, single mothers, or just generally are a bit lonely for a man. Some think they are absolute queens and wont give anyone without the same obscure interest in Russian post-modern romantic literature the time of day. Some do it because they are in serious need of some d!ck, although they would never ever tell you that.

 

[guru1000]

I would suggest to only date women you have spoken to on the phone. One, two emails, ask for the number. If she doesn't give you a number, NEXT!

Call, chit chat 5 minutes, ask for the initial date.

First date should go as follows:

What separates you from the pack?

How will you earn a second date?

I don't have much time here, what else do you have?

This is the frame you establish on the first date. This is the rapport you develop namely by qualifying her. She NEEDS to FEEL qualified and MUST earn your future dates.

She must leave the initial date thinking "WOW".

You SHOULD receive a text, email or phone call that night. If you don't, not enough rapport was built, frame was not correctly established or she may be a tough cookie to crack. Either or you will KNOW whether she is interested.

Whenever you doubt her interest level, 90% of the time, her IL is not high enough. Do not waste your energies with women who do not merit the cardinal prerequisite, high IL.

I batted 100% online but mostly due to constant disqualifying.

 

[Unbridled_Phoenix]

Do you work in the insurance industry?

 

[MikeEdward1973]

I would suggest to only date women you have spoken to on the phone. One, two emails, ask for the number. If she doesn't give you a number, NEXT!

Call, chit chat 5 minutes, ask for the initial date.

I had been wondering about this. Right now, I'm trading a couple emails, and closing them on meeting up for a drink.

But - you're saying that speaking to them on the phone is a good disqualifier. Something like that would be invaluable, and would save me a lot of time.

What are you listening for on the phone that is telling you that meeting up would be a bad move?

 

[MikeEdward1973]

So you have to keep in mind many chicks do this with no intentions of following up. I know it doesn't make sense, they just do.

That's hard for me to hear, but it's a great point. And explains some things.

Also, asking for her personal email or cell # after the date is a little too eager, I think. She should be offering this to you, usually after you mention seeing each other again sometime. It's all in the delivery, my friend. Never say you'd like to see her again, or that you'll call her. Further, DO NOT leave a message. If she doesn't pick up, hang up. Voice mails convey desperation, even if you're not.

This is great advice. When you put it like that, my closing/pursuit is sort of childish.

If I at least had a cursory interest in her, I would usually end the date with this: "I had a nice time. We should do it again sometime." Then I'd walk off about my business, all with bulletproof confidence and a smile. THEN, after a couple of days I would usually hear from them via text or email, and we'd set something up. If not, I would shoot her a text or email--very brief--and if I didn't receive a response, instant next.

This is not totally dissimilar from what I had been doing, in that I greatly prefer that they circle back to me first. But - when taking into account that, per your earlier point, I might be selling them off me at the end, I'm going to stop giving such obvious 'buy signs' when we part.

 

[MikeEdward1973]

First date should go as follows:

What separates you from the pack?

How will you earn a second date?

I don't have much time here, what else do you have?

This is another point. I wonder if I'm killing myself with the conversations that we're having. We'll spend 2 hours talking about everything. Music. Where we went to school. Friends/family. And they seem to really be into it.

And I do the basics well - 'kino' very successfully, get a lot of positive body-language response, and like I said, we often end it with making out.

But, there have been too many cases where I'll get an email a couple days later saying 'had a great time, just don't feel any connection,' etc.

So, what you're saying is that I'm spending too much time trying to be interesting, expressing interest in them, and not enough time qualifying. And whether that's done at a coffee shop or a bar, the venue doesn't matter.

 

[st_99]

15 dates a month?!?!

Dang, I wish I had 15 dates a month. That would be fun.

I need to get my online game on.

 

[MikeEdward1973]

15 dates a month?!?!

Dang, I wish I had 15 dates a month. That would be fun.

I need to get my online game on.

Actually, it was fun at first.

Now, it's like if a date tells me she can't make it (like she's really sick), I feel like I have the night off. It's become like a 2nd job or something.

I'm not going on any dates this week, just reflecting on what I've been doing with this whole dating thing.

 

[speakeasy]

Hey Colossus, you mentioned that you should never leave a voicemail. The thing is though, everybody's phone has caller ID, so I think it looks weak to call and then hang up. Especially if it shows you called a few times. What's wrong with leaving a brief, yet confident message? "Hey this is speakeasy, thought I'd give you call and see how you're doing, hit me up later, bye...*click*." What's wrong with that?

This is another point. I wonder if I'm killing myself with the conversations that we're having. We'll spend 2 hours talking about everything. Music. Where we went to school. Friends/family. And they seem to really be into it.

And I do the basics well - 'kino' very successfully, get a lot of positive body-language response, and like I said, we often end it with making out.

But, there have been too many cases where I'll get an email a couple days later saying 'had a great time, just don't feel any connection,' etc.

So, what you're saying is that I'm spending too much time trying to be interesting, expressing interest in them, and not enough time qualifying. And whether that's done at a coffee shop or a bar, the venue doesn't matter.

I've had this problem myself. There has been a girl that is a friend of a friend that recently added me to he facebook since we'd met once. Over the past few weeks she'd been displaying a lot of IOIs on facebook. Responding to all my posts, leaving comments on my photos. A lot of emailing back and forth. She gave me her number with no hesitation and agreed to go out and do something with me. We're both into hiking and I think activity dates are a good idea. I didn't exactly tell her it was a "date" technically, for all she knows in her mind she was just meeting up with a friendly guy who shares a mutual interest and nothing more. But to me, anytime you're spending time along with a girl you don't know that well for the first time and asking each other a bunch of get to know you questions, it's a freakin' date to me. Anyway, everything seemed cool, like you, I spend a lot of time focusing on having interesting conversation. There was no kino however. Only Kino was when she first came over, she stuck her hand out to shake mine in which I just pulled her in for a hug. I also gave her hug goodbye. I got the impression she is pretty timid and wary of kino so I didn't want to push her past her comfort level. Anyway, I felt the conversation was good and that we both had a good time. Since that day, her IOIs have disappeared completely. I'm at a total lost for an explanation.

I once met a girl on match. We met up for coffee, had about a 2-3 hour conversation that was really interesting, just talking about a lot of different things. I probably screwed up in that it was a bit too friendly and didn't involve romance. It felt just like talking to a platonic female friend. As you can guess, no call back after that. It was actually too bad because she knew a lot of cute girls as it turns out when I ran into her at a club some time later. If we could've just been friends, it might have been an in with some of the cute chics she knew.

A couple years ago, when I had a myspace profile. A random girl who lives in Philadelphia(I'm in Los Angeles) sends me a message saying hi and that I have an awesome profile. I checked hers out. She was quite cute and based on her profile was pretty much my ideal personality type. She lived on the other side of the country, but what the hell. I added her and then we chatted a lot back and forth. Even talked on the phone a few times. She was awesome. As it happens, I have a lot of family that lives in Philadelphia area and told her I do go back there to visit people from time to time. Well the summer of 08, I went back there. We met up and went to some lounges to have a few drinks and talk. Conversation was instant connection. It's rare to meet up with a girl for the first time and feel like you've known her for a long time. Probably the most fun date I've ever been on. I tried to kino escalate, but for some reason it wasn't being reciprocated. I didn't bother going for the kiss because the kino wasn't going anywhere. After that, she stopped talking to me on myspace. I was bewildered. It was obvious we had a several hours of great conversation and fun. She eventually faded into obscurity and I eventually deleted her.

So I certainly know of the confusion of which you speak. Maybe I'm not hitting it out of the park with this girls, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything I could even remotely construe as a dealbreaker. Maybe I am and don't realize it, who knows. I just don't have any way of knowing. And sometimes, even getting the kino is no guarantee of anything. I once made out with a girl in a club, she told me I was cute and all this stuff, I got her number and she never called me back or responded to my texts.

 

[window]

You're investing too much time per first contact...45min tops even if going well. At the end of the date if the girl doesn't refer to the future in some way like let's do this again or here's my number or email me etc etc then bail...

 

[vitor]

Don't take this wrong way but how do you look and dress? What kind of car do you drive and how do you handle yourself? I travel so much for my work in the Military that I use online dating. Normally I wink or email and girl, write 1 or two witty comments, get her facebook acct and phone number. Call her one night and ask her out. I would say from Match I have gone on 5 dates in the last 2 months and have had repeat days on all but one.

I normally do dinner and dancing, and always have them meet me at the restaurant. We usally get a bottle of wine, get a buzz on and then goto the bar/club in my car. At the Bar I get a table get a drink or two, talk her into a shot and then drag her on the dance floor for a bit of me trying to grind on her, touch her and make out. The 2nd date is dinner at my apt which I cook an amazing meal and try to close.

I dont think two hours is bad, I am just wondering if its your or they are just flakes. Do you care to post a pic?

 

[MikeEdward1973]

Don't take this wrong way but how do you look and dress? What kind of car do you drive and how do you handle yourself? I travel so much for my work in the Military that I use online dating. Normally I wink or email and girl, write 1 or two witty comments, get her facebook acct and phone number. Call her one night and ask her out. I would say from Match I have gone on 5 dates in the last 2 months and have had repeat days on all but one.

I normally do dinner and dancing, and always have them meet me at the restaurant. We usally get a bottle of wine, get a buzz on and then goto the bar/club in my car. At the Bar I get a table get a drink or two, talk her into a shot and then drag her on the dance floor for a bit of me trying to grind on her, touch her and make out. The 2nd date is dinner at my apt which I cook an amazing meal and try to close.

I dont think two hours is bad, I am just wondering if its your or they are just flakes. Do you care to post a pic?

Since you asked...

I'll pass on the pic, but will share a bit of backround info.

I'm 6ft, 1in. caucasion male. Weight is a shade over 180, body fat is about 10%. Which is as non-arrogant a way as I can think of to say that, when compared to the general population, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say I look very good.

I live in a very large city, where not having a car isn't a big deal at all. I actually don't have a car. I can walk to work.

I guess if I had to describe my dress, think Brooks Brothers. I do think it's possible I look too metrosexual, but I don't think that's a deciding factor either way.

I'm a senior manager at a software company, and make well north of $200k. The only reason I'm mentioning this is because I can see how one might wonder if my job/career is helping or hurting my situation (like you asked about the car, how I dress, look, etc.).

Bottom line is, on paper, I'm great. Too bad this isn't translating into a lot of hooking/dating really attractive women, despite a huge number of at-bats.

The 2nd date is dinner at my apt which I cook an amazing meal and try to close.

Yep, agreed, this also is going into my repertoire going forward.

 

[MikeEdward1973]

You're investing too much time per first contact...45min tops even if going well. At the end of the date if the girl doesn't refer to the future in some way like let's do this again or here's my number or email me etc etc then bail...

As an experiment, I'm going to start capping the amount of time I spend on these dates. I'm going to try to keep it under an hour.

For any number of reasons, you're right, I can't keep investing myself this heavily this often.

 

[MikeEdward1973]

A couple years ago, when I had a myspace profile. A random girl who lives in Philadelphia(I'm in Los Angeles) sends me a message saying hi and that I have an awesome profile. I checked hers out. She was quite cute and based on her profile was pretty much my ideal personality type. She lived on the other side of the country, but what the hell. I added her and then we chatted a lot back and forth. Even talked on the phone a few times. She was awesome. As it happens, I have a lot of family that lives in Philadelphia area and told her I do go back there to visit people from time to time. Well the summer of 08, I went back there. We met up and went to some lounges to have a few drinks and talk. Conversation was instant connection. It's rare to meet up with a girl for the first time and feel like you've known her for a long time. Probably the most fun date I've ever been on. I tried to kino escalate, but for some reason it wasn't being reciprocated. I didn't bother going for the kiss because the kino wasn't going anywhere. After that, she stopped talking to me on myspace. I was bewildered. It was obvious we had a several hours of great conversation and fun. She eventually faded into obscurity and I eventually deleted her.

Well, if there is one thing I've learned, it's that if either party has to get on a plane, it's just not going to work. In fact, my rule of thumb is she has to be close enough to spontaneously be available for happy-hour after work without a huge amount of logistical pre-planning.

 

[speakeasy]

Well, if there is one thing I've learned, it's that if either party has to get on a plane, it's just not going to work. In fact, my rule of thumb is she has to be close enough to spontaneously be available for happy-hour after work without a huge amount of logistical pre-planning.

I agree. I'm not the type who really consider the long distance thing, but in this case, she hit me up first, and figured that the next time I'm back there, I might be able to get a hook up. Plus she spoke of the possibility that she might move to California at some point for career reasons. So kept the line open, just in case.