Just got off the phone with a friend....

[RangerMIke]

This guy has had really horrible luck with women... there really is nothing wrong with him, decent dude, maybe a tad on the heavy side (6' 205lbs), late 40s but he carries it well. Makes a good living, 6 figs, stable... normal... married once for 12 years (divorced 8 years ago), no kids... solid dude... really, average looks and funny as hell. Doesn't drink, loves kids (he's always doing sh1t with his nephews and nieces and they are just nuts about "Uncle David") Great guy to go to Saint's games with.

Anyway this chick he was dating for about 4 months just gave him the LJBF speech. This happens to him a lot. This chick really isn't anything special, average looks, seemed to be sane (but you can never really tell). He isn't swinging for the fences... all the women I see him with are just average chicks, not super hot or below average. I think he is well within his ball-park.

This happens to him quite a bit, and what he continues to do is ignore this advice that I have given him time and time again as he goes back and forth with one chick to another where sometimes he chases too hard... other times not enough... this one he chased too hard... the next one he will over correct and not pursue enough... where he continues to fvck up is that he is trying to figure out exactly what each women he dates wants, and tries to give them that. I gave him this advice AGAIN, and I will repeat it here.

WOMEN ARE NOT STUPID, at least sane women are not stupid. She will know with almost 90% certainty that you like her, no matter how cool you think you are playing it. At that point all you as the man need to do is figure out if she actually wants you. How you feel is not important.

You figure out if she likes you by making dates and trying to set up times to spend with her one on one. If she makes this hard, then she really doesn't like you and you move on. If you make dates and she drags friends along then she doesn't like you 'that way'.

After you have been on a few dates she has to start making an effort to connect with you... if she doesn't then you just keep dating other women.

If she is putting in effort then you know she likes you and you reward her by spending more time with her, at any time in this process you think that you two are not going work out... you dump her... Why? Because when she figures out you are not working for her she will dump you.

You should NEVER try and figure out just how much 'chasing' to do, EVER. You be who you are, and if she likes you she will be the one putting in effort.

Hope he gets the message this time... but based on past experience I doubt he will.

 

[Barrister]

This guy has had really horrible luck with women... there really is nothing wrong with him, decent dude, maybe a tad on the heavy side (6' 205lbs), late 40s but he carries it well. Makes a good living, 6 figs, stable... normal... married once for 12 years (divorced 8 years ago), no kids... solid dude... really, average looks and funny as hell. Doesn't drink, loves kids (he's always doing sh1t with his nephews and nieces and they are just nuts about "Uncle David") Great guy to go to Saint's games with.

Anyway this chick he was dating for about 4 months just gave him the LJBF speech. This happens to him a lot. This chick really isn't anything special, average looks, seemed to be sane (but you can never really tell). He isn't swinging for the fences... all the women I see him with are just average chicks, not super hot or below average. I think he is well within his ball-park.

This happens to him quite a bit, and what he continues to do is ignore this advice that I have given him time and time again as he goes back and forth with one chick to another where sometimes he chases too hard... other times not enough... this one he chased too hard... the next one he will over correct and not pursue enough... where he continues to fvck up is that he is trying to figure out exactly what each women he dates wants, and tries to give them that. I gave him this advice AGAIN, and I will repeat it here.

WOMEN ARE NOT STUPID, at least sane women are not stupid. She will know with almost 90% certainty that you like her, no matter how cool you think you are playing it. At that point all you as the man need to do is figure out if she actually wants you. How you feel is not important.

You figure out if she likes you by making dates and trying to set up times to spend with her one on one. If she makes this hard, then she really doesn't like you and you move on. If you make dates and she drags friends along then she doesn't like you 'that way'.

After you have been on a few dates she has to start making an effort to connect with you... if she doesn't then you just keep dating other women.

If she is putting in effort then you know she likes you and you reward her by spending more time with her, at any time in this process you think that you two are not going work out... you dump her... Why? Because when she figures out you are not working for her she will dump you.

You should NEVER try and figure out just how much 'chasing' to do, EVER. You be who you are, and if she likes you she will be the one putting in effort.

Hope he gets the message this time... but based on past experience I doubt he will.

I think the tricky part is that the man typically must do some pursuit in order to get the woman out of the gate. It is important to not over-pursue ("chase") but also important that once you are in a routine (plate status) or STR/LTR not to become suffocating with adorning her with attention and still live your life and take care of everything else going on in it. Don't suddenly make her the #1 priority above all else. It is easy to fall into this trap of chasing when you usually must pursue initially. Knowing when to dial it down (once you have hooked her) is the key.

 

[Robert28]

I want to add something. I’ve had women make setting dates easy, kept in constant contact but never let the conversation turn sexual or when in person they wouldn’t give you an open to escalate past kissing. These women are good at faking interest, they usually got out of a bad breakup recently but are using you to soothe their ego and get attention. Problem is you don’t always have all this info to make that determination so you think she’s really into you and things are progressing but they suddenly come to a complete stop after the 4-5 date. Usually they’ll give a vague reason as to why too and their mood suddenly changes. They go from warm and chasing you for weeks to distant and won’t talk to you suddenly. I’ve had this happen twice. One wanted to just be friends afterwards and the other just slow faded me.

 

[characternote]

I want to add something. I’ve had women make setting dates easy, kept in constant contact but never let the conversation turn sexual or when in person they wouldn’t give you an open to escalate past kissing. These women are good at faking interest, they usually got out of a bad breakup recently but are using you to soothe their ego and get attention.

just to add to that, with this new girl i'm banging whose pic I shared, it was fairly confusing. I'm used to cold approach in bars and I tend to know where I stand, but this was a work thing that i've never experienced so it was new to me.
What i realised was that she was flirty as hell in text but in person, there was a certain coldness to her.
On more than one occassion I thought to myself 'Yeah, she's not into me at all. I've missread this. She just happens to be flirty over text' or whatever. I even asked some people on a different pickup place and the general consensus was to forget her and she was teasing me or whatever and wasn't interested.
Anyway, it turns out they were wrong and she was always into me and now we're banging. She was just a bit shy in person and stuff.

 

[Don Dark Horse]

WOMEN ARE NOT STUPID, at least sane women are not stupid. She will know with almost 90% certainty that you like her, no matter how cool you think you are playing it. At that point all you as the man need to do is figure out if she actually wants you. How you feel is not important.

You figure out if she likes you by making dates and trying to set up times to spend with her one on one. If she makes this hard, then she really doesn't like you and you move on. If you make dates and she drags friends along then she doesn't like you 'that way'.

Very simple. She will make it easy for you if she likes you. If not, she'll make it difficult and that's when you next her. Overthinking and trying to find out what they want isn't going to help. Very well said, Mike. I would've said much the same to any of my friends.

 

[BeExcellent]

Great advice Mike.

It’s always supposed to be a dance. The man leads, the woman follows. If the man stops leading? The dance doesn’t flow anymore. If the woman stops following? The dance doesn’t flow any more. It takes both parties doing their appropriate part for the dance to continue.

Relationships are no different. The man’s effort is in leading; inviting; awaiting her appropriate response. If she continues to follow his lead? Then you still have something (and I agree that she should in time pick up and encourage the man’s leadership by showing him effort and interest)…if either party is suddenly in a vastly uneven effort dynamic then the relationship naturally falls apart.

What many men (and some women also) miss is the calibration and nuance this lead/follow dynamic requires. It’s a nebulous thing, varies from interaction to interaction, and can be hard to get a feel for. As you stated this is where your buddy struggles. Too hot/coming on strong in one interaction, too cool & aloof in the next. The solution in my opinion is for him to be warm but err on the side of less is more. Warm when in the interaction but leaving enough space for the women to wonder and create their own mental script for the relationship. Be wam & effusive when he’s in contact with them, in person, on the phone or (to a much lessor degree) over text. And then vanish for a little bit.

Mileage may vary based on the individual he is involved with of course, but less is more.

Absence does make the heart fonder.

 

[RangerMIke]

Its easy for us because we have that emotional deadness that comes with lots of experience. It doesnt take any effort on our part to avoid chasing, because we don't have the desire to relive the pain of failed expectations. A corollary is that of course we have observed what works and doesnt so many times.

"Experience is the most brutal of teachers but you learn, my God, do you learn." CS Lewis

It's sort of unfair really... life gives the test first.... then you learn.

 

[Zimbabwe]

Women find attraction in things that men do not. While men love a young, hard, body, women are typically attracted to strength. Whether that is physical, emotional, financial or societal, women will go for the strong man.

When men lose frame and no longer embody that, women lose all attraction. The game does not end once the relationship starts, hopefully your friend finds a better woman next time.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

It's going to be hard if you don't drink

 

[Glassguy]

"Experience is the most brutal of teachers but you learn, my God, do you learn." CS Lewis

It's sort of unfair really... life gives the test first.... then you learn.

Very true. There are no shortcuts in life that take a detour around tough life experiences. Some of them hurt. But we should learn and grow from all of them.
There is no magic pill. There is no magic line to be said.
We grow, we learn and we adapt.
As the late, great Woody Hayes said: "anything easy ain't worth a damn!".

As for your friend: it sounds like he has a bad habit of trying to win women over. He changes who he is in effort to please a woman. Never a good thing. He should be comfortable with who he is at his stage of life and be looking for women who compliment him.
I don't think it's necessarily a problem for women to know you like them but it becomes a problem when the women are your main focus and become the top priority in your life. That's when a woman knows that she has you, and then doesn't want you.

 

[eli77]

I always enjoyed your post Mike put it this way at least he didn't wife her up

 

[BadBoy89]

WOMEN ARE NOT STUPID, at least sane women are not stupid. She will know with almost 90% certainty that you like her, no matter how cool you think you are playing it. At that point all you as the man need to do is figure out if she actually wants you. How you feel is not important.

Don’t know the specifics, but would also guess he got the LJBF speech because he had no plan with her. He was just “happy” constantly being validated by just being in a relationship with her. You don’t mention if he had sex with her after 4 months.

But women need a direction, either your friend needed to get married, get her pregnant, or leave. He could have kept her as a plate but he doesn’t sound smooth enough to do it.

Women hate to constantly validate the man, through sex and the relationship, without it going anywhere. Men love it.

 

[Atom Smasher]

A lot of you guys talk about your friends being resistant and unable to change, but rarely do I see men here getting their friends to check into this SoSuave Hospital for the Criminally Brainwashed.

We should be recruiting our friends into this forum. The problem is that you are too close to your friend to have sufficient credibility with them. “A prophet has no honor in his home town”. Men need to be exposed to a consensus of men who are enlightened.

 

[Barrister]

A lot of you guys talk about your friends being resistant and unable to change, but rarely do I see men here getting their friends to check into this SoSuave Hospital for the Criminally Brainwashed.

We should be recruiting our friends into this forum. The problem is that you are too close to your friend to have sufficient credibility with them. “A prophet has no honor in his home town”. Men need to be exposed to a consensus of men who are enlightened.

I have two guy friends who are adequately red-pilled already. The other 3 close guy friends I have I think would ALL uniformly be resistant to all the ideas here and would denounce it as misogynistic drivel. They have been brainwashed their whole lives.

I think for a man to be open to taking the red pill he has to arrive there on his own. During the early days of my marriage if I had been shown SS I think I would have scoffed at most things I read here -- even though deep down I knew they were probably true. You have to find the spring on your own to be willing to drink. A friend leading you to water won't cut it if you haven't inwardly made yourself ready to drink.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I send them here all the time.
This website is too blunt and savage for most men that struggle with women. Even moreso the moderately successful men that were able to keep the blue pill dream alive for a period, they have no desire to lose the magic.

One interesting thing is that this website is also too practical and strategic for the incels and mgtows.

You make all fair points. It might be good to have a pinned thread where someone who is well established here addresses the noobs, explaining why things seem so blunt and savage to the newcomer, and why they should suspend judgment for a couple weeks in order to see if their past programming is the cause of their resistance.

 

[RangerMIke]

Then there's the quote from Citizen Kane: "You're going to need more than one lesson. And you're going to get more than one lesson."

True... I will also add "If you haven't learned and need another lesson, you will get it." Life is a b1tch, get used to it.

 

[RangerMIke]

Women hate to constantly validate the man, through sex and the relationship, without it going anywhere. Men love it.

This is so true. Nothing dries up a woman faster than constantly having to let you know they 'like' you. If you don't get the message, and fail to act on it, the window closes. Some chicks it closes fast as hell... some will give you more time to do something, but eventually if you don't take the hint... they are onto the next one. And a man that doesn't have a lot of experience with women will wonder WTF happened to the chick that was all into him one day, and the next isn't hearing back from her. What happened is the window closed, and not only that painted over and nailed shut. Any attempt to force that window back open is a waste of time.

You can't hit a fastball that is already in the catcher mitt.

 

[eli77]

This guy has had really horrible luck with women... there really is nothing wrong with him, decent dude, maybe a tad on the heavy side (6' 205lbs), late 40s but he carries it well. Makes a good living, 6 figs, stable... normal... married once for 12 years (divorced 8 years ago), no kids... solid dude... really, average looks and funny as hell. Doesn't drink, loves kids (he's always doing sh1t with his nephews and nieces and they are just nuts about "Uncle David") Great guy to go to Saint's games with.

Anyway this chick he was dating for about 4 months just gave him the LJBF speech. This happens to him a lot. This chick really isn't anything special, average looks, seemed to be sane (but you can never really tell). He isn't swinging for the fences... all the women I see him with are just average chicks, not super hot or below average. I think he is well within his ball-park.

This happens to him quite a bit, and what he continues to do is ignore this advice that I have given him time and time again as he goes back and forth with one chick to another where sometimes he chases too hard... other times not enough... this one he chased too hard... the next one he will over correct and not pursue enough... where he continues to fvck up is that he is trying to figure out exactly what each women he dates wants, and tries to give them that. I gave him this advice AGAIN, and I will repeat it here.

WOMEN ARE NOT STUPID, at least sane women are not stupid. She will know with almost 90% certainty that you like her, no matter how cool you think you are playing it. At that point all you as the man need to do is figure out if she actually wants you. How you feel is not important.

You figure out if she likes you by making dates and trying to set up times to spend with her one on one. If she makes this hard, then she really doesn't like you and you move on. If you make dates and she drags friends along then she doesn't like you 'that way'.

After you have been on a few dates she has to start making an effort to connect with you... if she doesn't then you just keep dating other women.

If she is putting in effort then you know she likes you and you reward her by spending more time with her, at any time in this process you think that you two are not going work out... you dump her... Why? Because when she figures out you are not working for her she will dump you.

You should NEVER try and figure out just how much 'chasing' to do, EVER. You be who you are, and if she likes you she will be the one putting in effort.

Hope he gets the message this time... but based on past experience I doubt he will.

You're a bigger man than I am I had to cut off a lot of friends like that

 

[RangerMIke]

You're a bigger man than I am I had to cut off a lot of friends like that

I never cut anyone off... they cut themselves off. He's my Saint's game buddy. If he stops being a fun guy going to games, or if he turns into a non-productive basket case, yeah I'd stop spending time with him. It's not like he is always whining about chicks, thinking he is just a victim, yeah that s#1t gets old, I don't put up with that. He is well aware that the problems he is having is all on him.

In his defense, he works all the time running his business, he doesn't spend too much time worrying about women, he's too busy. We'll have this talk once every few months when a chick he is seeing goes sideways... then he back on purpose. Like I said, he's actually a great guy... his biggest problem is that he WANTS a relationship... in my experience the surest way NOT to get in a relationship with a quality woman, is to actually NOT want one... let her work to lock you down. His other problem is OLD, but what else is he going to do... he is too busy to actually go out and find women and the pandemic really limits your opportunity to meet people like normal human beings.

Damaged women expect YOU the man to chase them... In case anyone here hasn't already figured this out, if a woman expects you to chase them, then THAT is a HUGH red flag. Why... because they do not have sufficient self-esteem or confidence in themselves to make an effort. The attention they get being the prize is the ego boost they need to get through the day. The problem with this is these men that chase them they don't really love... so they move through them like a storm.

 

[eli77]

I never cut anyone off... they cut themselves off. He's my Saint's game buddy. If he stops being a fun guy going to games, or if he turns into a non-productive basket case, yeah I'd stop spending time with him. It's not like he is always whining about chicks, thinking he is just a victim, yeah that s#1t gets old, I don't put up with that. He is well aware that the problems he is having is all on him.

In his defense, he works all the time running his business, he doesn't spend too much time worrying about women, he's too busy. We'll have this talk once every few months when a chick he is seeing goes sideways... then he back on purpose. Like I said, he's actually a great guy... his biggest problem is that he WANTS a relationship... in my experience the surest way NOT to get in a relationship with a quality woman, is to actually NOT want one... let her work to lock you down. His other problem is OLD, but what else is he going to do... he is too busy to actually go out and find women and the pandemic really limits your opportunity to meet people like normal human beings.

Damaged women expect YOU the man to chase them... In case anyone here hasn't already figured this out, if a woman expects you to chase them, then THAT is a HUGH red flag. Why... because they do not have sufficient self-esteem or confidence in themselves to make an effort. The attention they get being the prize is the ego boost they need to get through the day. The problem with this is these men that chase them they don't really love... so they move through them like a storm.

well said i have cut off alot of high school guys and college guys like that