It's hard for me to write this, but I need to figure it all out (VERY long, 2 posts)

[muscleman]

I'm back again. A brief history for of my relationships in life:

I got my first gf at 17. Since then I've been in 7 relationships ranging anywhere from 3 weeks to 1 year. I've slept with 10 girls. I've been a total AFC but have improved. Earlier this year I was at the top of my game - dating 2 girls at once while trying to work on adding a third. Then I dropped my other options to continue seeing this one girl.

We've been dating since late January, exclusively for about 3 months.

Things are troubling me a bit now though and I need to figure it all out.



Part 1: The Self-Imposed Trap

For the longest time I thought it was she who made the ultimatum regarding exclusive dating when in fact it was I who chose this. Here's what happened:

One night (several months ago) we were all out at a bar celebrating. I was sick at the time and the smoke was killing me so I had to leave early and go home. She stayed back with her friends and agreed to come over later that night. When she did come over (probably 2-3 hours later), we had a little convo. This is what I remember of it, loosely reconstructed:

Her: I was just wondering if we're seeing other people.
Me: Why do you ask?
Her: Well because XXX was "ready to go tonight" and I turned him down but I don't want to feel like an idiot if you're seeing other people. (XXX is an old friend of hers who used to be married but is now separated and has "always liked her")
Me: [avoiding the question but eventually, since she kept bringing it up, saying "no we're not seeing other people"]

1) Why did she not go home with me in the first place when I told her I was sick and had to leave?
2) Why would she bring up XXX? Do you think something actually did happen that night after I left or if it was going to but she really turned it down and wanted to bring this up as a means of getting the "right" answer to her question out of me?
3) Would I have really lost out on her if I said "yes we're seeing other people"? Thing is, at the time I was content seeing her and this other girl, but I liked hanging out with her more and although I never gave much thought about her seeing other people (I didn't care because I was doing it and I had no emotional attachment), at that moment I got a bit jealous like "I'm the only one who should be fvcking you".



Part 2: Relationship Evolution and Me Pushing Too Fast

I always do this. I don't know why. I always push way further than I need to. This girl practically wants to marry me now and it's all my fault. Pending my graduation I mentioned I may be moving out of state and that she can "come along", implying that she'll move in with me. Of course she started looking for jobs and getting her hopes up and what not. I know she'll follow me wherever I choose to go, but that's not the problem - I kinda put myself into a bind here, whether she had anything to do with it or not.

Even my mom tells me that I always complicate things unnecessarily and try to push way too far way too fast. Perhaps it's out of insecurity?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like I'm the one who imposed these restrictions on myself. The two main ones being: a) exclusivity out of fear of losing her/jealousy over her sleeping with someone else and b) "promise" of a life together.



Part 3: Outside Opinions, My "Screening", and Her Pros/Cons

Unfortunately I grew up without a major father figure. I love my dad, but he's far FAR from being a DJ. He had a very secluded upbringing that was beyond his control (growing up in a secret military town during WW2). He's a bit too religious and as far as teaching positive masculinity, it just wasn't there. So my mother raised me. I've come to rely on her for help in anything and everything. She was my biggest and most listened-to source of advice. Part of me thinks that's a problem.

Recently she met my GF and they've had some time together. We then had a conversation about it and here's what my mom told me about her:

1) She's very attached to me - she wants to marry me.
2) She's socially adept since she's been out in the work environment since 18. This is "good for her" and "bad for me" because we're not on the same plane. She knows how to progress up the ladder (in the words of mom "if she wants to improve her career she'll sleep with whoever she needs to go move up, she won't feel bad about it, and you'll never know about it") and how to influence people, I don't. I wonder if there's truth in what she said, especially the sleeping around part.
3) She's not that well off and I may deserve better: she doesn't have a degree (went to college but never finished it), her family isn't wealthy but not really poor, her family is more working class (parents hold semi-professional jobs), and her genetics are decent but not GREAT (i.e. she's not skinny by default, some of her family is really overweight, her mom has some condition, she has a bladder condition).

To me, a lot of this makes sense. I actually do want to meet the rest of her family sometime soon (I've met her dad but that's it) so I can see what they look like. My mom always told me to "look at a girl's mother - chances are that's what she'll look like when she's older". It definitely makes me question things though.

On the flip side, the things I like about her: she's pretty hot. Not the hottest girl I've dated, but up there. Could definitely be more in shape, but I'm thinking she just got the short end of the stick with genetics - she already eats very little but it's hard for her to lose weight. Then again she does drink a lot (about 2x/week, getting drunk usually with me). Of course I have pretty good genetics so it barely affects me.

We get along well. Perhaps she's just that good at keeping up "good relations" with people (entirely possible), but she treats me well.

She easily covers half of all of our expenses, often whipping out her card before I even have a chance to get mine.

The sex is still great. Maybe it's just my lack of experience (and all girls are like this), but we have a good sex life. She's enjoys anal, money shots, sex anywhere, sex to porn, etc. She's a pleaser.

She's ok with me following my dreams and she'll come along wherever I go. I'm not sure how to take this: either a lack of motivation or extreme dedication. It could be that she knows her time is coming (she's 24) and it's time to settle down. She knows I'm a catch.



Part 4: Things That Worry Me, Her Slip-Ups, and How Things Have Changed

I'm not sure I'm correct in using sex as a benchmark of interpersonal relationships, but I'm going to anyway. When we first started seeing each other it was BOMB. I realize a huge part of this is just the thrill of sleeping with someone for the first time, or the first few times. But there were fantasies. First off she told me she never had anal before, so we did it. We still do it. It's great. When I told her afterwards that it was my first time, she was shocked, thinking I was some sex whiz. She also told me, more than once, that it was "the best sex she ever had". Doesn't say that anymore.

She even wanted to have a threesome at one point. This is an interesting story. It was going to be me + her + her best friend who is now getting married. We entertained the idea but her friend's fiance was against it (obviously, though I'm not sure why she'd tell him though). Anyway it never happened.

One thing did bother me about this threesome idea though: when we were discussing it one day she said "well AAA (friend's fiancee) wants to have it with me and her, but not with her me and you, not even if we do both so everyone gets their threesome". The part that bothered me was that she assumed it would be ok to have a threesome with them, and then have a threesome with me.



Here's something else: at one point I just felt like I was "that good" to get a girl to sleep with me the first night, not realizing that it's not really me - it's just that if there's attraction and you get em wet, you're in. I came to this realization once when someone here pointed it out and again (seriously) when this happened:

We don't really talk about our previous relationships (I've made it a point not to since it can only bring bad news), but at one point we were having a drunk conversation and related to our topic was the fact that last year there was a dude who she met and slept with the second time they hung out. Hey that's like me sleeping with her our first night. So I guess it's not that surprising after all.

But do girls generally give it up the first night? It all kinda makes sense now too - she told me that I turned out "differently" from what she thought. She thought I was an ******* who only wanted one thing and she "didn't expect me to call her after we had sex". Yet knowing this full well, she went on the date with me anyway and gave it up anyway. I'm just not sure how to take all this.

 

[muscleman]

Part 5: Fear of "Losing Out"

Here's something that troubles me. This girl pleases me (sexually and emotionally). We get along. We share a lot of the same interests and the same ideals. I keep reading over Vulpine's post about women being just as plugged-in to the matrix as we are and how we're all fvcked up. Change a few things around (things that are in fact changeable) and I could see myself with her long term.

I read all this advocating about staying single until you're 30 or whatever. Then I see all these whining posts in the Mature section about a crappy dating pool, most of the single girls at that age either moms already or really screwed up because they're not moms and they've never been married. I see all my friends getting married or already married. But then there's the prospect of being single, bangin hot chicks at 30, being stable in your career, etc. It's such a dichotomy it drives me nuts.

I don't want to lose out. But it seems either way I'd lose out on something. If I stay single, sure I could bang XXX chicks, have fun, whatever, but I'd be missing out on companionship and possibly building a really good relationship with a great person only to regret it in the future. And I could end up with a piss poor dating pool. I don't want to be chasing co-eds all the time. The flipside to this argument should be obvious.







This is been a long rant, so let me sum it up with some final thoughts on self-analysis:

I think my problem is that I don't value myself enough. Not to brag, but I think I'm a case of "nerd turned stud", at least physically. I was always the social outcast, the skinny kid who couldn't get a chick, the boy who was too afraid of a fight. Then I took up bodybuilding/serious strength training (which IMO is still the best way to "man up" .. that testosterone does wonders), my appearance changed, girls started noticing me, I started picking up on that, I changed my style, I started reading, I started trying [some really stupid stuff but trying anyway], I failed, I succeeded, I learned, and my confidence grew. Where it took me weeks to get a girl in bed I could now do it our first night face to face, within roughly 4 hours of meeting her for the first time.

But in my mind I STILL don't think I value myself enough. I see all these mediocre guys with hot chicks. I mean SMOKIN hot. I know I'm better looking that a lot of them, my style is on par, but they obviously have something I don't. Cause I'm not landing those 9's. Then again, those 9's could be completely worthless when it comes to personality. I've dated a couple girls who were pretty hot, but were completely uninteresting. Is the grass really greener for those guys?

I want to figure this out, step by step. I need some advice, and I could use some help when making decisions that are, at this point in my life, rather important. It's really coming down to potentially settling down with 1 girl but missing out on the variety or banging a whole bunch but missing out on deeper relations.

Everything else for me is good. I know what I want to do with myself and I've been fortunate enough to figure that out at the age of 16 and have been working on it since. Everything else is, for the most part, figure out. But the relationship thing still has me puzzled. I just can't help that male drive to bang everything hot in sight.

 

[Dark Chivalry]

I read all this advocating about staying single until you're 30 or whatever. Then I see all these whining posts in the Mature section about a crappy dating pool

I've noticed this too. What I'll do is strike a balance; keep my eyes open for a good woman when I finish my training in two years, but not settle for a LTR with anything less than that. It's tragic to be the old guy with a combover trying to hook up with chicks and even more tragic to be married to a subpar woman.

 

[blueguy]

It sounds like you have the upper hand in this relationship. You know you could do better but the fear of breaking it and the possibility of not finding better is overwhelming you.

It's interesting, I can relate to a lot of the stuff you've posted here.

Regarding the dating pool when you're older, if you have a set plan and focus on that plan for the next several years, it is very likely you will do better before you're 30-35. But you have to be in a place where you'll have lots of younger options and you have to know you're going to improve.

It sounds like you haven't even been together long enough to even consider marriage.

It's your choice what you want to do. You know more about the situation than us.

Although it would hurt like a b1tch if you saw her with somebody else, THE most important thing you need to know is that you can't sweat it too much. You're going to make mistakes. The older you are, the more mistakes you will have made. You can't mature if you dwell over these mistakes.

 

[Dntueva]

Qoute: I need some advice, and I could use some help when making decisions that are, at this point in my life, rather important.

Ok I agree with that, but remember to get all the advice you can, but do what YOU think is right, Or What YOU want to do with this. Cause in the end its YOU, thats gonna be dealing with, wichever way it ends up.

And the thing about the mature section is also true, for me, cause I have had 2 ballbusters for wives and I was a TOTAL AFC
Now when im learning new ways and info on the subject its like the women for the more mature guys are mommies, divorcies,
and women that are just fed up with the whole deal.
So, it a little harder, for us.

So, thats all I can give you. Sorry, it isn't more, but we all gotta do what we all gotta do.
Good luck bro, I feel for ya!
TheDnT

 

[RAFCbearfilm]

As one of the over 30 crowd whining about the dating pool, I can tell you that it is the dumbest advice their is. Sounds like you are getting a wandering eye in an LTR but to be honest, you do not say one thing about her that sounds worth dumping her over. You are looking at other guys with their "hotter girls" yet you are smart enough to understand that the "grass is not always greener."
The only area that I read that seems to be of any concern is the sex question. She sounds like she's fantastic in bed, and you seem a little reluctant on a threesome, have you come clean on the sex issue or is she so sexual that you are going to wonder if your mom was/is right. Maybe you need to have a little sit-down and sort that issue out so you know where you guys stand.
Moms are great, but for advice on women? They will always want the best for you, but only you will know what's best for you. Is it scary to think about spending your life with someone? Only if you are going to spend that life second guessing your choice and looking at other chicks saying "if only." You want to be with someone that keeps you from looking by your choice, not hers.

 

[blueguy]

It all rolls down to your confidence.

As it seems to me - your confidence is a bit shaky.

With all due respect to the last few posters, a 30 year-old man has just as many options as a 23 year-old man does. However, if the 30 year-old man has played his cards right, he will have better options than does the 23 year old man.

The question is, how much confidence do you have in yourself?

A girl is very good at perceiving your confidence, and in fact, when you first met this girl, she indicated that she thought you had more confidence than you do right now. It was once she found out that your confidence was lower than she thought that she saw you as marriage material. Here (she thought) is a guy who has a lot of things going for himself (a catch) but is insecure enough to stay put. (I may not be correct on this, but this is what I'm judging from your post.) You became a safe choice because you would stick around.

It seems that you haven't developed a confidence about yourself and are relying upon the relationship you're in to define how valuable you are. This stems from a lack of dating experience and maturing in general. That's why you don't know whether to stay in it or not. That's why you don't know what the hell to do. You NEED to develop that confidence and understand this value before you make any major decisions. You CAN do that inside the current relationship.

You wouldn't come posting this if you weren't hesitant about this girl. So essentially the question you're asking is - can I land a better girl if I wait a bit more and keep improving? The answer is, absolutely yes! But that means that you have to leave what is comfortable and face a lot of unknowns in order to get there. If you're not confident enough, you're going to fail.

Whether you have the heart to destroy your relationship to pursue that path is up to you.

Another thing to realize is that you will change a lot from the age of 23 to the age of 30. So will she. Is that something you want to risk?

 

[muscleman]

RAFCbearfilm - thanks for the advice. I think you misunderstood the threesome issue though. I wanted to have one and we entertained the idea but eventually she decided against it. I was advised by other people not to push it further as it should be "her idea".

blueguy - I think you're right about that. I definitely had more confidence when we first started dating. The whole safe choice thing just sounds .. derogatory though. I don't want to be the "safe choice". I want to be the one she wants not because I'm safe or whatever but because I'm such a good catch. Are you saying she wouldn't have seen me as marriage potential if I kept up the confidence and wasn't so "safe"? That whole thing really bothers me - it's exactly what I didn't want.

The other thing I have a problem with is holding people's past against them. I know I shouldn't. But sometimes things come out and I can't help but wonder or get defensive. Perhaps that's just my own immaturity though.

And here's one more bit: she's almost a year older than me and at times I think she's more (emotionally) mature.

So I'm not really sure what to do about this confidence thing. I already do what I like as far as job/career goes and I'm starting to lift again.

 

[muscleman]

And here's another thing - maybe I just have trouble trusting people because I've been sh!tted on in the past. For example, is it normal for girls to be talking to other guys (via text) if they're in a relationship? Just the other day I was reading a text she wanted me to read (different convo) and I then looked for others that continued the plot, but as I start scrolling I see some names pop up of other guys and she quickly takes the phone. The two names I saw are guys I know, but I'm just saying. They seemed like "normal" texts but honestly I didn't have time to read before it was snatched out of my hand. Makes me wonder what else is there, but I don't want to be a spy and there's no way I could do it anyway. I guess that's insecure?

I asked her later "so how many people do you talk to on a daily basis, you're always texting" to which she just changes the subject. I dunno, maybe I'm just paranoid and have trust issues?

Cause on the flipside she does treat me well, she doesn't act shady/suspicious, and I know she wants to stick with me long term and move in and all this other stuff. Not that that's happening anytime soon, but yea.

It's kinda difficult though because I have been cheated on in the past (so has she) and no matter how confident I am/feel it's always in the back of my mind. Now granted if it happened that would be the end of that. I don't think she would given that she wants the above ^.

Anyone?

 

[thefemaleperspective]

She sounds like a really insecure girl. That is the overall impression I get, and I disagree about you being in control. She obviously is.

You need to take some time to get your perspective right about this girl. I think she isn't the one for you, and that it will get ugly and end ugly.

However, you seem like a good guy, and a great catch. Work on that snobby issue, and those insecurities, and you will be ripe for the pickin!

 

[blueguy]

blueguy - I think you're right about that. I definitely had more confidence when we first started dating. The whole safe choice thing just sounds .. derogatory though. I don't want to be the "safe choice". I want to be the one she wants not because I'm safe or whatever but because I'm such a good catch. Are you saying she wouldn't have seen me as marriage potential if I kept up the confidence and wasn't so "safe"? That whole thing really bothers me - it's exactly what I didn't want.

I perceived that from something you wrote that I can't find anymore. You said something like, "before she knew me, she thought I'd be more ****y and was surprised how nice I was once she got to know me." I can't find it. Maybe you didn't write it. Either way, she DOES think you're a catch, but she also perceives your insecurity. In other words, she knows you have a lot of things going for you, yet you don't realize it. That's why she wants to marry you. You're a good deal.

Not the hottest girl I've dated, but up there. Could definitely be more in shape, but I'm thinking she just got the short end of the stick with genetics - she already eats very little but it's hard for her to lose weight. Then again she does drink a lot (about 2x/week, getting drunk usually with me). Of course I have pretty good genetics so it barely affects me.

This is why I think you're in control. You feel you can do better. But you're getting pulled in over time. The relationship is flipping sides because of your perceived lack of options.

It could be that she knows her time is coming (she's 24) and it's time to settle down.

I think you're right.

We've been dating since late January, exclusively for about 3 months.

This is a huge red flag. I'm sorry. But it's expected when girls are young. Most young girls think this way. 4 months is definitely not long enough to make a decision of that magnitude. She is inexperienced in these matters, and so are you.

1) She's very attached to me - she wants to marry me.

Did you consider marriage before she mentioned it?

Pending my graduation I mentioned I may be moving out of state and that she can "come along", implying that she'll move in with me

I really think this is a bad idea, and you need to be more firm about the fact that she can move to the same city as you, but you think it's best you had your own separate places. If she moves, that indicates that you're in control of the relationship, which is a good thing. You can keep this thing going. But I highly advise against letting her move in after only 4 months!!

Here's the deal: I think she is just as worried as you about this relationship. So I would explain to her how you feel about not jumping into things so quickly. Stay in control. Make sure she knows that you want to eventually settle down but need time.

And here's my opinion: I'm 25. Only two years older than you. But I've had a few chances to do this, and let me tell you, I'm happy I didn't! I'm glad I'm still single because my dates just keep getting better, and I have lots of time and options to do what I want. My personal opinion is that 23 is way too young.

 

[muscleman]

I didn't really "consider marriage" before she brought it up and in fact she never did. It's just the way she's acting and the opinions of other people that come off as showing that she wants this. I have explored the possibility of staying with her - once you date someone exclusively for a while you do ask yourself "where is this going" and "should I continue seeing this person and if so, for what purpose". So yes, I have entertained the idea of a long term relationship briefly.

I totally agree that 4 months is way too short for anything of this magnitude, but I'm not making any decisions NOW. Given our individual situations it'll be at least a few months (if not into next year) before any kind of relocation happens. And yes things can change in that time period, but I like to think ahead.

I also do have some experience in this - I moved out with a gf several years ago and we lived together for a year. It was a very good learning experience and I feel I have a better understanding of what to expect.

As far as looks go though, I've learned that some of the hottest girls have no personality. In the long run, I think personality wins. Granted there should be physical maintenance and she's still gotta be hot, but I'd rather be with a cute/hot 7.5-8 who's got character than a smokin robotic 9.

 

[blueguy]

I agree. I'd rather have a great personality too with above average looks. That's what I was referring to catching - the overall package.

There's a trend I notice across married friends, family, etc. It seems initially or over time, they tend to settle and stop reaching for the stars. Once you're linked to an average somebody, a large chunk of your motivation for improvement drops. They/you get fat, lazy, etc. That's why I think if you make yourself a well-rounded person in so many different avenues over the next 5-10 years, you can land a better catch who is on the same level you are and has also had enough time to develop her own consistent self-improvement methods. I would say she would be 25+.

I think you know the drawbacks and benefits to it. You seem to have invested a lot emotionally in her. Only you can make the right decision about this. But just remember not to be swayed too much emotionally in the present, think logically about what's best for you in the long term as well.