It Was Just A Matter of Time...

[pLaYtHiNg]

Wondering what you gentlemen think of GM filing for bankruptcy?? Can't say I'm surprised.

 

[Hughman]

I love American muscle cars, but it just can't compete with Ford, the European automotive companies and Japan. The papers are saying it will reemerge, just a lot smaller (as it will have sold off various branches etc)

 

[Bible_Belt]

Other than making a good small-block V8 and decent full-size trucks, which they have always done, I have found pretty much every GM auto to be a piece of junk. When their cars hit 120,000 miles, they just fall apart and are worth next to nothing if resold as used cars. People will buy high-mileage Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. Those cars last twice as long. When I was 18, I wanted a truck. I almost got a Chevy S10. Instead, I got a Nissan. 250,000 miles later...I still have that truck - runs great. I bet the S10 that I didn't buy was crushed for scrap years ago.

 

[speed dawg]

The guy that was GM's CEO that became Secretary of Defense once said what's good for GM is good for America. I don't necessarily believe that anymore. It's no secret that we have to have some degree of our own manufacturing to remain strong economically but carrying a failing company is not a smart thing to do. Let it fail, and other companies, maybe even a second GM will come of it. Like another poster said, they can't compete because they've made stupid decision after stupid decision. In the modern day car business, you MUST find ways to invent new and innovative vehicles or you WILL NOT MAKE IT. GM just got lazy and complacent and entitled, as it shows through anybody who's ever worked and been overpayed by them for years.

 

[piranha45]

We will continue to keep this dead whale floating and festering. All hail the power of socialism!

 

[spider_007]

it's going to be fun - my company has 0 work right now.

 

[SmoothTalker]

It was bound to happen for a long time now, I'm just annoyed and amazed by how much money the US and Canada have dumped into this piece of **** when it was obvious that they would go down. Buying union votes, nothing more nothing less.


On a side note, it's amusing to watch the stock market these days. A few weeks ago when it was becoming clear that GM was going bankrupt but the shares were somehow more or less holding, I told a friend that the CEO of GM could publicly state the shares are worthless and they'd still go up. As of today, the management of GM, countless analysts, and Obama have clearly stated GM SHARES ARE WORTHLESS and yet the day they announce their bankruptcy the stock shoots up for most of the day. Sure some of that may be short covering (though I think it's been impossible to short GM for a while now) but for the most part it's like the financial Darwin awards.

Mindblowing.

 

[speakeasy]

Yeah, what the hell is causing the stock market and oil to be rallying like this? It makes no sense. There's no more good news out there now then there was several months ago. The economy isn't adding any jobs, we're still in deep recession with no end in sight, the housing market is still in the doldrums, WTF is causing the markets to rally??? Oil is especially pissing me off. Gas has gone up by like 50cents around here in the past month. This sh*t is getting out of control!

 

[SmoothTalker]

Just be glad you're not paying the equivalent of $4 a gallon while being a net oil exporter. Canadian dollar is almost back to par but we never see anything get cheaper, just more exporters asking for a bailout.

 

[Wiesman44]

Yeah, what the hell is causing the stock market and oil to be rallying like this? It makes no sense. There's no more good news out there now then there was several months ago. The economy isn't adding any jobs, we're still in deep recession with no end in sight, the housing market is still in the doldrums, WTF is causing the markets to rally??? Oil is especially pissing me off. Gas has gone up by like 50cents around here in the past month. This sh*t is getting out of control!

buy the rumor, sells the news, and vice versa: sell the rumor, buy the news.

In this case the rumor was 'bad news' , so you short. Now, the news is in, so you buy. classic short covering by the big players which in turn creates a rally.

Think about it, you are a large hedge fund with a heavy short position, and you're banking on GM to fail. GM fails. Now you exit, while you can which means you are 'buying' from all the little guys that are selling. This pushes up the market.

Also, your other question about gas. Economy is showing signs of promise, and when that happens, people buy oil.

 

[speakeasy]

buy the rumor, sells the news, and vice versa: sell the rumor, buy the news.

In this case the rumor was 'bad news' , so you short. Now, the news is in, so you buy. classic short covering by the big players which in turn creates a rally.

Think about it, you are a large hedge fund with a heavy short position, and you're banking on GM to fail. GM fails. Now you exit, while you can which means you are 'buying' from all the little guys that are selling. This pushes up the market.

Also, your other question about gas. Economy is showing signs of promise, and when that happens, people buy oil.

I'm not a financial guy so I don't understand all this "shorting" stuff.

What signs of promise are you seeing in the economy? Unemployment numbers are still worsening and that's what directly effects most people.

 

[WaterTiger]

Other than making a good small-block V8 and decent full-size trucks, which they have always done, I have found pretty much every GM auto to be a piece of junk. When their cars hit 120,000 miles, they just fall apart and are worth next to nothing if resold as used cars. People will buy high-mileage Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. Those cars last twice as long. When I was 18, I wanted a truck. I almost got a Chevy S10. Instead, I got a Nissan. 250,000 miles later...I still have that truck - runs great. I bet the S10 that I didn't buy was crushed for scrap years ago.

Funny you should say that! I got a call from a friend of mine last week, she was stranded out on a back road with a smoking engine. I went to get her and was laughing. She had a 4 year old Chevy with a ruined engine, I was in my 91 Ford that runs like a top!

 

[speakeasy]

Other than making a good small-block V8 and decent full-size trucks, which they have always done, I have found pretty much every GM auto to be a piece of junk. When their cars hit 120,000 miles, they just fall apart and are worth next to nothing if resold as used cars. People will buy high-mileage Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. Those cars last twice as long. When I was 18, I wanted a truck. I almost got a Chevy S10. Instead, I got a Nissan. 250,000 miles later...I still have that truck - runs great. I bet the S10 that I didn't buy was crushed for scrap years ago.

Oh brother, I can't believe in this day and age of fast and easy information that we're still here painting entire industries with such a broad brush??

There are a zillion thorough reliability reports out there for every make of car there is. Not all American brands are crap and not all Japanese brands are good. You'd be better off in a Buick than you would be in a Mazda as far as reliability. I drive a Volkswagen Jetta and I love the car, but the reliability is lower than almost every American car. American cars have improved markedly in the last few decades. But the preceptions from the 70s and 80s are still in the public conscious. Most people don't even know that American cars have fewer problems reported than European cars. They probably think that just because it's expensive and exotic, and from overseas, it must automatically be better.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/08/autos/jdpa_dependability/index.htm

Buick ranks right up there with Lexus with reliability. Cadillac and Mercury are very high up too for example. Just because the car is from an American company doesn't mean you can label it as inferior in reliability. I'd rather drive through the middle of nowhere in a Cadillac than a Suzuki or Mitsubishi anyday. Yeah, Lexus, Honda and Toyoto may be top notch, but not all Japanese cars are at the level.

 

[oakraiderz2]

Oh brother, I can't believe in this day and age of fast and easy information that we're still here painting entire industries with such a broad brush??

There are a zillion thorough reliability reports out there for every make of car there is. Not all American brands are crap and not all Japanese brands are good. You'd be better off in a Buick than you would be in a Mazda as far as reliability. I drive a Volkswagen Jetta and I love the car, but the reliability is lower than almost every American car. American cars have improved markedly in the last few decades. But the preceptions from the 70s and 80s are still in the public conscious. Most people don't even know that American cars have fewer problems reported than European cars. They probably think that just because it's expensive and exotic, and from overseas, it must automatically be better.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/08/autos/jdpa_dependability/index.htm

Buick ranks right up there with Lexus with reliability. Cadillac and Mercury are very high up too for example. Just because the car is from an American company doesn't mean you can label it as inferior in reliability. I'd rather drive through the middle of nowhere in a Cadillac than a Suzuki or Mitsubishi anyday. Yeah, Lexus, Honda and Toyoto may be top notch, but not all Japanese cars are at the level.

Only Tiger Woods, my grandma and my mom want a buick.

 

[ketostix]

Oh brother, I can't believe in this day and age of fast and easy information that we're still here painting entire industries with such a broad brush??

There are a zillion thorough reliability reports out there for every make of car there is. Not all American brands are crap and not all Japanese brands are good. You'd be better off in a Buick than you would be in a Mazda as far as reliability. I drive a Volkswagen Jetta and I love the car, but the reliability is lower than almost every American car. American cars have improved markedly in the last few decades. But the preceptions from the 70s and 80s are still in the public conscious. Most people don't even know that American cars have fewer problems reported than European cars. They probably think that just because it's expensive and exotic, and from overseas, it must automatically be better.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/08/autos/jdpa_dependability/index.htm

Buick ranks right up there with Lexus with reliability. Cadillac and Mercury are very high up too for example. Just because the car is from an American company doesn't mean you can label it as inferior in reliability. I'd rather drive through the middle of nowhere in a Cadillac than a Suzuki or Mitsubishi anyday. Yeah, Lexus, Honda and Toyoto may be top notch, but not all Japanese cars are at the level.

I totally agree. I've seen a lot of GM cars, probably more than imports, with 150K, 200K and even 300K or more miles. The junkyards are full of Japanese cars and a lot of them with not that many miles.

The truth is it wouldn't matter how well designed and made the Big 3's cars are. People are simply willing to pay even more for a Korean car or Japanese as long as they believe the workers didn't get decent pay or benefits. It's true GM has high legacy costs but the cars were not being priced higher. Instead of admitting they are motivated by jealousy, they create the huge quality gap pretext, GM cars are "junk" and Japanese cars run forever and never breakdown.

What really bankrupted GM was it losing market share to imports. Unfair trade deals was a big part of it. That's similar to what happening to all of our domestic industry. Put the blame where it belongs. Consumers did it. Apparently, people won't buy something unless it's made with lower payed labor even if it costs more. Myself, I hate to do business or buy a product from any company that takes all the profit and little goes back into the economy.

It's just another example of American industry being given up to foreigners. the way I see it, Americans are so jealous they don't want any other Americans to have a job let alone a good one. And that's what we're going to have.

 

[ketostix]

Ketostix, your post was ludicrous.

There's nothing ludricrous about my post bud. I've heard people for years make snide comments about UAW making x dollars an hour..

You seemed more motivated by anger that consumers are buying better cars from better companies.

Well people should be angry that their american standard of living is dropping continuously. The imports are not better cars and definitely not better companies.

 

[speakeasy]

I do think Japanese cars in general are of better quality than American cars, no doubt about it, I just think the gap is wildly exaggerated to the point that people think if they buy an American car, the wheels are going to fall off the second you drive off the lot. People get too caught up in the hype and stereotypes when they should be looking at the consumer reports.

 

[ketostix]

People get too caught up in the hype and stereotypes when they should be looking at the consumer reports.

the thing is you can't even give that much creedence to consumer reports. Perception is reality. There's been cars manufatured in the same plant and parts and the same assembly line and workers and the only real difference was one was branded American and the other Japanese and the difference between the consumer reports reporting high reliability to the import was more than the average between an entirely American model and one that was entirely Japanese. So obviously these reports by consumers can be very inaccurate. Once something is common perception, it doesn't matter what reality actually is. I don't get my beliefs from the media reports. I base them on extensive knowledge of how cars work and experience with cars.

Well anyway the Korean automakers and soon the chinese are going to do unto the Japanese/European like the Japanese/European did unto the US based auto industry lol. The US economy will be the one getting shafted the worst though. At least the Japanese have the good sense not to let foreigners come in and take a share of their domestic auto market, unlike us.

 

[Cloudtopsun2100]

the thing is you can't even give that much creedence to consumer reports. Perception is reality. There's been cars manufatured in the same plant and parts and the same assembly line and workers and the only real difference was one was branded American and the other Japanese and the difference between the consumer reports reporting high reliability to the import was more than the average between an entirely American model and one that was entirely Japanese. So obviously these reports by consumers can be very inaccurate. Once something is common perception, it doesn't matter what reality actually is. I don't get my beliefs from the media reports. I base them on extensive knowledge of how cars work and experience with cars.

Well anyway the Korean automakers and soon the chinese are going to do unto the Japanese/European like the Japanese/European did unto the US based auto industry lol. The US economy will be the one getting shafted the worst though. At least the Japanese have the good sense not to let foreigners come in and take a share of their domestic auto market, unlike us.

In so many ways we the USA are similar to the Roman Empire.

 

[speakeasy]

the thing is you can't even give that much creedence to consumer reports. Perception is reality. There's been cars manufatured in the same plant and parts and the same assembly line and workers and the only real difference was one was branded American and the other Japanese and the difference between the consumer reports reporting high reliability to the import was more than the average between an entirely American model and one that was entirely Japanese. So obviously these reports by consumers can be very inaccurate. Once something is common perception, it doesn't matter what reality actually is. I don't get my beliefs from the media reports. I base them on extensive knowledge of how cars work and experience with cars.

Well anyway the Korean automakers and soon the chinese are going to do unto the Japanese/European like the Japanese/European did unto the US based auto industry lol. The US economy will be the one getting shafted the worst though. At least the Japanese have the good sense not to let foreigners come in and take a share of their domestic auto market, unlike us.

There are reports that will show how many problems a given model had on average during it's first 5 years for example. That's pretty straightforward.