Is this forum anti-marriage

[sodbuster]

If the severanced was only 2 weeks pay, no problem. Unfortunately, the Divorce severance package is much higher[if you gave me a couple hundred thousand to quit my job, I'd do it tomorrow]

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Yeah I don't think most guys here are anti-marriage. Anti-marriage to the wrong types of gals and against marriage/divorce laws, yes. I think marriage to the right gal has moire pluses than minuses. The truth is most people spend the majority of their life not playing the field. There are financial advantages to being married even over the hypothetical LTR GF. The downside risk is divorce, but really if a woman was contributing during the marriage you most likely won't lose more than you gained.

Well put.

 

[STR8UP]

If the severanced was only 2 weeks pay, no problem. Unfortunately, the Divorce severance package is much higher[if you gave me a couple hundred thousand to quit my job, I'd do it tomorrow]

This is EXACTLY what men need to understand.

If they were to see marriage in such raw terms, they would understand why it is so easy for a woman to pull the trigger on them and rationalize it away like only a woman can.

Fact is, divorce is a golden parachute for women. They get on the plane and they know that parachute is always packed and ready. All they have to do is jump and pull the cord.

 

[Hemingway]

I think most of these forums are Anti-LTR, and pro-"gettin some".

Which is why I so seldom engage in the discussions... this is one of the few topics I've seen lately that interests me.

I've seldom had trouble getting a girlfriend... It is KEEPing them that I find difficult, because of the relaxation you feel when in a LTR. I find it very difficult to remain "a challenge" when I live with someone. The principals apply, but it isn't a game.

How do you remain "a challenge" in marriage? Nobody ever explained this.

 

[LoneSilver]

I come from folks who have been married for over 59 years but I live with the reality that in todays world unlike years past marriage long term isn't a given for most couples if it is it will be rare and I have chosen to remain single since the odds are stacked against us.

I have witinessed my two older brothers perfect love marriages and many friends end in divorce with kids involved and yes I say that with the most sarcasm as they were looked upon as such lovely couples and just made for each other just perfect for each other...yeah right......:crazy:

Actually I am not anti-marriage but anti present divorce court system and strongly believe this present system isn't anything new in it's unfair treatment of those with kids and toward the fathers.

Back in the 70's I experienced the loss of my uncle due to the unfair treatment toward him when my late aunt and uncle were divorcing.

My aunt had two kids from another marriage and my uncle had two with her it was his first marriage her 2nd.

During the divorce my aunts lawyer thought it OK to manipulate my aunt and play on her emotions so she could get sole custody of the kids by lying actually making up lies against my uncle and manipulating my cousins to agree with the non-sense as they were young and as most kids favor their Moms.

The judge ruled in favor of my aunt through her lawyer without investigation into the lies plus ruled in her favor to get the house, child support, alimony, new cars and the successful business my aunt and uncle worked both together to make succsessful only leaving my uncle a loving and caring man with his late model pick up truck.

My aunt realized her mistake in agreeing with this lawyers approach when she returned home and entered the master bedroom where she found my uncles lifeless bloodied body with a self inflicted gun shot wound to his heart he also left a note to his kids telling them he loved them and to please understand.

It's amazing how what I consider a legal criminal called a lawyer in my uncle case can manipulate to bring even the most caring person to end their life my uncle was made to look like the scum of the earth and the poor man's answer in his grief was to end his life.

I still have the obituary and the newspaper story of my uncles death. Even today it brings back the memories of the unfairness toward my uncle even though back then being young I wasn't clear on all the details. I guess this is another reason I support Alex Baldwins cause not so much about buying his book it's about the unfairness in the court system and it's more then him being just another bitter divorced man it's bigger then this it's only a warning to what can happen the man is doing us a favor.

If my uncle was given equal custody of his kids my cousins and the fairness owned him he properly would still be alive today and I would properly be on the lake fishin' with him having a wonderful time what a shame.

As far as being a challenge in a long term relationship in todays world thats the million dollar question it will actually take two selfless individuals to make it work finding her will be a gift but the possibilities of each changing over time is the challenge and adjusting to those changes are not always to our likeing and advantage.

LoneSilver

 

[Hooligan Harry]

I'm all for marriage with the right gal. One who works hard, and contributes, instead of being a burden.

Not too easy to find these days. Most women today want you to carry their lazy asses... pay for everything, while they slack off.

At least that's been my experience. I'm still hoping I will find a woman who will contribute, I view marriage as a team effort.

And the marriage/divorce laws usually end up hurting the man much worse than the woman, financially and emotionally - e.g. taking half your sh*t, custody of children, etc This is why many men are avoiding marriage.

To me this is the problem right here. For some reason, people seem to think that women who dont contribute financially are contributing less. If you cannot support a family on your pay check alone then you should not have a family. Where are the days when a man worked and the wife tended to the home and kids? The days when the divorce rate was next to nothing, families were more stable and juvenile delinquency was lower then it is now despite lower standards of living in the past?

Modern day marriages fail for a few reasons but one of the major reasons is that women put careers ahead of their families. Anyone who works with career women will know that they pour a ton of emotion into their work and expect attention for their achievements. That places a tremendous amount of strain on a family.

I wont marry unless I know that she has

a) passed my own tests over time and shown her worth as a long time mate
b) wants to have kids
c) will give up career to raise kids

If she is prepared to gamble with her career and make the home her primary concern then I have no problems providing financial guarantees that she will be looked after if things went tits up. She gambles as much as I do. If she wants to continue working and stick the kids in daycare? Then what the **** does she need to get married for? Why the need for financial support and protection?

Besides. Women are **** at making money anyway, unless they dance or **** for it. Their contributions as a result are pretty worthless. Her contributions would be better if she stayed at home at raised children.

 

[Jeffst1980]

All this aside, I find it striking that for as much as we pin the blame for the crumbling institution of marriage on feminism, it is feminism we have to thank for making women sexually available prior to marriage. I suppose it's a double edged sword.

Personally, I think a lot of the perceived anti-marriage sentiment comes from the fact that many on this forum have been through nasty divorces. You cant really have a mature man's forum without discussing divorce, and I think it's beneficial to have these viewpoints.

I think the message isn't to skip out of marriage altogether, but rather to get married for the right reasons...not because you've been with your girlfriend for a few years and her biological clock is ticking.

I feel that marriage is essential if and when you want to have kids, as children benefit from a stable, strong family. Studies seem to indicate that married men are happier and live longer, too. Still, I can't help but view marriage as a great risk. The idea of being bound to a woman for life is a harrowing thought; as the majority of men go down this road relatively early in their lives, it's impossible to take into account the personality changes that we all undergo as we age. A man who decides to marry at 24 can only rely on the minimal wisdom he has acquired up until then to make that decision, which is arguably the most important decision in his life. It seems to me that a much wiser decision is to wait 10 years or more--for one thing, you will be in much better shape financially, and ideally, you'll have a stronger sense of identity and will be ready for such a commitment.

I won't deny, however, that there are a great number of couples that married young and are enormously happy. I think that in the end, it's pointless to operate with the mindset that you need to find your "best possible option," all things considered. Realize that there are only "good" mates and "bad" mates, and that, no matter what, you WILL second guess yourself and feel attraction for other women and wonder if you've made a mistake...but these are just natural feelings that come as a response to the somewhat unnatural practice of monogamy and nothing to freak out about.

If I look back over my dating history, I could see myself being happily married to at least 5-6 of the girls I've seriously dated. The rest would DEFINITELY have been mistakes. There's not a whole lot of gray area here. This is proof enough for me that there's no rush to find a wife. Don't marry because the girl is "the one"---marry because you're truly READY to get married.

 

[sodbuster]

In some ways, it's easier if you get married early.You've had your parents telling you what to do,teachers,boss..... easy step to having a wife. Once you are older and have enjoyed some of the freedoms, it's a little harder to get used to the idea of "consulting' another person about your life. Of course you would have better taste in women as you age.

 

[Mr.Positive]

Fact is, divorce is a golden parachute for women. They get on the plane and they know that parachute is always packed and ready. All they have to do is jump and pull the cord.

I like this quote. I'll remember this one, it's an excellent way to put it. Add the fact that women KNOW about the golden parachute, makes marriage even tougher of a decision these days.

I wouldn't say I'm anti-marriage, I would say I'm anti-divorce, and I'm anti all the feminist divorce laws protecting women, but hanging men out to dry.

To my knowledge, there isn't one divorce law that protects men. The courts are always favoring women. Even case that are so obviously wrong, like dna proving the child was not the man's, yet he has to pay child support, etc. Women can even take a guy's pension away from him, 20 years down the road.

It's quite comical to me at this point how it's so blatant that women can take men to the cleaners with our current system.

There's no hiding it these days, with the internet.

Our society almost encourages people to not want to marry anymore...that's the funny thing. Any guy with half a brain knows the cards are stacked against him the day he says "I do".

I'm all for successful happy marriages, but unfortunately it's not a fair institution for men anymore. Most marriages are not about religion or love anymore, it's about pressure for men to "man up" and enter a financial agreement where women can legally take his balls away from him.

Men need to be very very careful with marriage.

Until the divorce laws are updated for our current century. Women can work hard and get jobs, just like men can, they don't need alimony. Don't marry unless you have been with the same gal for years, and she's passed all your tests. IE, you know she's quality.

 

[Jitterbug]

Studies seem to indicate that married men are happier and live longer, too.

I had a close look at such studies once, because it doesn't seem to reflect what I've seen from modern married men. What I found was that (and I should've guessed it right from the "live longer" part) those married men are the much older ones, from the time when women weren't this crazy.

 

[jophil28]

I had a close look at such studies once, because it doesn't seem to reflect what I've seen from modern married men. What I found was that (and I should've guessed it right from the "live longer" part) those married men are the much older ones, from the time when women weren't this crazy.

I have seen this shift in women's thinking and behavior since the late 1970's.

UP to about 1978,a woman typically regarded getting married as the fulfilment of her life dream . She was GRATEFUL to have been chosen and she saw her marriage as her life path. These women made good wives because they also followed their mother's example of CONTRIBUTING in many complimentary ways. To them, marriage was a life committment...

In 2008 women seem to believe that they are entitled to a tall, wealthy model handsome husband who is willing to provide for her every whim and is willing to act like her servant/personal assistant/ and junior emplotyee combined. She regards her contribution as giving him occasional access to her gold lined pvssy . If he asks for her to contibute in a some way, he is accused of being "domineering and controlling ". If he expects her to be courteous and respectful to him by calling him if she is coming home late, then he is "possessive and jealous"..
All the while she is aware of her rights and entitlements via Family Law, and acts as if her marriage is a conditional arrangement of convenience which is revokable when or if things get a bit sticky.

THis is the "magic carpet ride" mentality of modern women .
Women who think this way ,even mildly ,are not fit to be in the business of marriage.

Try this next time you want to flush out a woman's real attitude to men and relationships....
IN the course of a conversation, drop in this phrase and watch her facial reaction. " A wife's devotion to her husband " ....

I feel for you younger guys who have two choices in marriage these days - alligators or crocodiles.

 

[Hooligan Harry]

All this aside, I find it striking that for as much as we pin the blame for the crumbling institution of marriage on feminism, it is feminism we have to thank for making women sexually available prior to marriage. I suppose it's a double edged sword.

This is so far off the mark its not funny. Again, its bull**** propaganda that we have been fed for years and its been drummed into us so much we have started to believe it as fact

1) The Kinsey Report proved that people have ALWAYS been promiscuous. They were just more discreet about. Society is to blame. Girls idolize women like Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian now. *****s. Compare that to people like Elizabeth Taylor. (How many men did she ****?) Marilyn Monroe (how many men did she ****?) Most women are not having more sex. But they do act like *****s. Huge difference

2) Go to Catholic and Orthodox countries and tell me the women are reserved. Try Eastern Europe, South America, Spain, Portugal, The Med, Turkey...these are countries where feminism never really took hold but the women LOVE sex. No ****ing you because they need something or ****ing you because she feels its her duty. Just outright plain loves ****.

 

[Andy_Dufresne]

I am divorced. And a divorced person is the LAST person you would want to seek advice on marriage.

That being said, the long term marriages I've seen that are actually HAPPY: the man is the man, the woman is the woman in the relationship, and it stays that way.

There are any number of psychological pervisions to the above theory, but the basis is true.

If any relationship ends against your will - you should never blame the other person; you need only self-reflect.

 

[Jitterbug]

I have seen this shift in women's thinking and behavior since the late 1970's.

UP to about 1978,a woman typically regarded getting married as the fulfilment of her life dream . She was GRATEFUL to have been chosen and she saw her marriage as her life path. These women made good wives because they also followed their mother's example of CONTRIBUTING in many complimentary ways. To them, marriage was a life committment...

....

In 2008 women seem to believe that they are entitled to a tall, wealthy model handsome husband who is willing to provide for her every whim and is willing to act like her servant/personal assistant/ and junior emplotyee combined. She regards her contribution as giving him occasional access to her gold lined pvssy . If he asks for her to contibute in a some way, he is accused of being "domineering and controlling ". If he expects her to be courteous and respectful to him by calling him if she is coming home late, then he is "possessive and jealous"..
All the while she is aware of her rights and entitlements via Family Law, and acts as if her marriage is a conditional arrangement of convenience which is revokable when or if things get a bit sticky.

I heard this story from a woman who's now in her early 40s. When she was in her early 20s, about 20 years ago, she was in a relationship with a tall, handsome, intelligent gentleman who treated her like a queen. He proposed to her. She thought that there would be plenty of those men around and didn't want to miss out on life experiences, so she broke up with him and broke his heart. A couple of years later, he married someone else, while she hopped from one relationship to another. Twenty years on, one day, out of the blue, she decided to look up his name to find out what he's up to. It turned out that he's still married to his wife and they're now multi-millionaires.

Isn't that women's greatest fear: missing out on the great catch?

I feel for you younger guys who have two choices in marriage these days - alligators or crocodiles.

We young ones still have a couple of decades to fight this. There is still hope.

 

[Jeffst1980]

This is so far off the mark its not funny. Again, its bull**** propaganda that we have been fed for years and its been drummed into us so much we have started to believe it as fact

1) The Kinsey Report proved that people have ALWAYS been promiscuous. They were just more discreet about. Society is to blame. Girls idolize women like Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian now. *****s. Compare that to people like Elizabeth Taylor. (How many men did she ****?) Marilyn Monroe (how many men did she ****?) Most women are not having more sex. But they do act like *****s. Huge difference

2) Go to Catholic and Orthodox countries and tell me the women are reserved. Try Eastern Europe, South America, Spain, Portugal, The Med, Turkey...these are countries where feminism never really took hold but the women LOVE sex. No ****ing you because they need something or ****ing you because she feels its her duty. Just outright plain loves ****.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. Before the 50's, a woman's social value was determined largely by her chastity. Premarital sex for women didn't even become the norm until the 70's. Do you honestly believe that you could go out and have consensual sex on a second date with an attractive girl that wasn't a prostitute in 1950 the way you can today? Or call an FB up for a booty call? Forget discretion--no self-respecting young woman would risk the ostricization that would follow such acts. One simply can not deny the impact of culture on human sexuality--in fact, I think that's the whole point of this forum.

As for Eastern European women etc., I can't comment on that because I haven't lived over there. I'll take you at your word. However, I suspect that such countries did not have any NEED for a sexual revolution because they weren't founded on Puritan principles that persisted for centuries, as in our country.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I think that if this forum comes off as anti-marriage it's because it draws attention to the fundamentals of what the "marriage arrangement" has evolved into. As I stated prior, I'm not anti-marriage, nor do I think that it's inherently bad - it's just been perverted, misdirected and capitalized on.

But you see, the social convention is such that even in questioning it, drawing attention to it and deconstructing it, it becomes synonymous with being "anti-marriage". It's a similar dynamic when Men critically think about intergender relationships and then point out inconsistencies, double standards exclusive to their own gender and other "raw deals", only to labeled a "misogynist" for pointing them out.

The more relevant questions are why do you feel that the forum is anti-marriage for critically analyzing marriage from a male point of view? Why would there be a need to inhibit this kind of analysis through the use of a shaming social convention? Is your estimate of this forum's being "anti-marriage" the result of seeing marriage in a romanticized perspective?

Some things to chew on,..

 

[squirrels]

The problem with marriage is that men with poor game look at it as a way OUT of the game. I.e. once you're married you no longer have to keep your woman happy because she's "locked down".

That crap worked back in the day when marriage was a commitment under GOD and women who cheated, got divorced, or had problems "homemaking" were ostracized by other women.

Women are "liberated" now. If she's NOT happy, she will up-out and find SOME way to blame it on you, without even thinking twice. That's the problem with marriage today from a male perspective. At some point, women changed the rules on us, and we men are SELECTIVELY IGNORANT of that rule-change.

There are only two GOOD reasons to get married:

1) You want to start a family with this woman
2) You're with a woman who makes you happy just by being herself, and you make her happy just by being YOURself.

"Game" is about picking up women and f*cking them. Make no mistake about it. If you want to marry a woman you obtained via "game", then it better be your NATURAL game, because otherwise, sooner or later, your facade will fall apart and she WILL up-out, ring on her finger or no. Unless she likes you for WHO YOU ARE.

 

[Jeffst1980]

I agree with squirrels.
It used to be in a man's best interest to get married when he found the "right girl." In those days, a woman who left a marriage (or was left herself) was blacklisted socially. Divorce was not an option on the table for a young couple, for better or for worse.

Nowadays, it's in man's best interest to stay single until he decides he wants to raise a family, even if you're a guy that craves monogamy. If you marry a girl just because you don't want her to "get away," she may just end up "getting away" regardless.

It's nearly as easy nowadays to get out of a marriage as it is to end a relationship. A woman with a low interest level will leave a marriage just as she would leave a relationship. Marriage counseling is such cases is notoriously ineffective, primarily because there's no incentive for a woman to stay. In fact, she'll likely leave a much wealthier woman.

So, really, the correct countermeasure is to not play the game at all. However, I think that the "us vs. them" mentality is misplaced. Women as a collective are not to blame; they're just doing what's in their best interest in modern western society. If the shoe was on the other foot and the courts and public opinion favored men unconditionally in divorce settlements, we'd be doing the same. This is why I believe that personal values and character strength are the most important qualities for evaluating a potential mate. Of course, until you're ready to settle down, those traits are easily overlooked. We all love hot chicks. However, marrying a girl just because she's hot is pointless because, no matter how hot she is, you WILL get tired of banging her.

You know how girls say that there are guys that they marry and guys that they fvck? The problem for men today is that too often we marry the girls we fvck.

 

[jophil28]

The problem with marriage is that men with poor game look at it as a way OUT of the game. I.e. once you're married you no longer have to keep your woman happy because she's "locked down".

I think you are right, quite correct and also spot on.

I have known more that a few men who saw "getting married" as the end game - like finally landing a good job with a decent salary .
Finally, they were successful in securing a permanent position. No more 'interviews ' or job applications.( no more dating ) and NO more uncertain paychecks ( no more unpredictable sex )
A job with a salary guaranteed regular income - a marriage to a woman guaranteed regular sex ( or so he believed at the time. )


I womnder how many of those marriages matched those men's expectations,

 

[jophil28]

Women as a collective are not to blame; they're just doing what's in their best interest in modern western society. If the shoe was on the other foot and the courts and public opinion favored men unconditionally in divorce settlements, we'd be doing the same.

I disagree with this in a few ways.. There is no social force at work for men (like feminism) which constantly promotes the "entitlement" philosophy which women have .

Secondly ,we also do not have a "victim" mentality ( it is all HER fault )

Thirdly, we have not been brainwashed into believing that our marriage partner is "the enemy" in times of disagreement and we do not have the social networks which support and reinforce these notions .

You are saying that women do what they do "because they can "
To say that women are merely acting in ways which are permitted and encouraged by the court sytem misses these points. There are several powerful (and destructive ) forces at work which push them toward divorce as a FIRST CHOICE in the first place. The court system finally 'rubber stamps' what she has been manipulated into believing are her "rights".

Marriage.as a positive social stabilizing structure is in deep shyte.