Is this forum anti-marriage

[Ballie]

Has this forum become anti-marriage? I think so - many of you youngsters will miss out so much on the initial joys of marriage. But most importantly on the joys of having children. I have seen a co worker transformed by the joy of having his first child and I remember when I had mine and was willing to stop my wild jolling days.

Most of you will say. Well it was OK in your days so I consulted da Great Pook and he said:

"I think it is becoming clear that marriage and children is a natural longing in not just women but men as well. Nature did not intend gender avoidance. I believe generally everyone is repelled by the negative pessimistic tone found on MGTOW (sosauve?). However, people return consistently for a dose of the poison to ease the existential pain (caused by the natural longing of wife and children which is found in every culture and time). Once convinced by the rantings that women are more painful than pleasurable, the male goes off semi-satisfied. But, alas, the natural longing creeps up again causing the male to return.

why, it must be requited. I hear how I am censured:
they say I will bear myself proudly, if I perceive
the love come from her; they say too that she will
rather die than give any sign of affection. I did
never think to marry: I must not seem proud: happy
are they that hear their detractions and can put
them to mending. They say the lady is fair; 'tis a
truth, I can bear them witness; and virtuous; 'tis
so, I cannot reprove it; and wise, but for loving
me; by my troth, it is no addition to her wit, nor
no great argument of her folly, for I will be
horribly in love with her. I may chance have some
odd quirks and remnants of wit broken on me,
because I have railed so long against marriage: but
doth not the appetite alter? a man loves the meat
in his youth that he cannot endure in his age.
Shall quips and sentences and these paper bullets of
the brain awe a man from the career of his humour?
No, the world must be peopled. When I said I would
die a bachelor, I did not think I should live till I
were married.

-"Much Ado About Nothing", Shakespeare"


dapook.blogspot.com

Well?

 

[( . )( . )]

many of you youngsters will miss out so much on the initial joys of marriage.

From what I've seen the "initial" joys of marriage is about right.

But seriously, and I hate how cliche this sounds but whats in it for me? What cant I get without marriage? and I'm not taking the piss either, let me know because I cant think of anything.
In all honesty I would hope the majority and not the minority of the posters here are "anti-marriage". This place is supposed to have some sort of enlightened tone to it.

Btw you have some really sexy women there in South Africa.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

If an individual chooses to NOT get married, that's their call. If any individual chooses to DO or NOT DO anything, that's their call, so long as they aren't hurting anybody else.

Unfortunately, it becomes an issue when some folks, instead of realizing that their choice, based on their OPINION, is just that, a personal choice based on an opinion, somehow feel a need to do more than just share their opinion, and their choice, with everyone else.

They feel a need to persuade others to believe the same things they believe. As if they have discovered some secret, behind the the curtain workings of reality, and feel a need to "unplug" people.

Personally, I beleive that marrage can be a wonderful thing, with benefits far outweighing the alternative, providing you bring to it a

Solid Sense of Self,

AND

you have Sufficient Skills to

1) Know exactly what you want
2) Sort through the available options
3) CHOOSE The right mate.

However, it can be life's hardest mission to develop your sense of self, and develop these sorting/qualifying/choosing skills.

It's far easier to convince yourself that you have sock solid self confidence and wicked mad air-tight game. That way you can easily blame a world filled with AW's and flakes and BP's and super secret conspiracies to de-masculinize the species.

 

[jophil28]

A friend of mine said , " Yes, love is blind, but marriage will rapidly restore your sight."

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

She loves you when she takes you for granted. That sounds odd I know, but it's when she's not fawning all over you and you're in your 10th year of marriage and it's just part of everyday conversation. "OK, love you, bye" is at the end of every phone call. You're not thinking about it, because you don't need to. If you're asking the question "how do you know when she loves you?" You're not in it. It's when that familiarity and regular comfort is removed that she can appreciate it. Once the commonness of love is established women will only rarely express it overtly - in fact the expression will be what's expected of you - so you have to look for it covertly.

All the flowery crap you read in your Hallmark card on Valentines Day or your Anniversary was written by someone else. And while it's nice to have these gestures of appreciation occasionally, it's more important to see the forest for the trees. It's not individual acts of affection or appreciation so much as it is the whole of what you both do on a regular day-to-day basis. It's what you and she are all about after your three hundredth bowl of oatmeal together on a Saturday morning and your kids are fighting for control of the TV remote while you're sitting across the breakfast table discussing which bills need to be paid first this month and how bad the lawn needs mowing that defines love.

This is what marriage is; not necessarily boring per se (although it certainly can be more often than not), but ordinary. It's normal, common, or becomes so. That's the real test of marriage that no one who hasn't experienced it can really relate in any meaningful sense. The happy Oprah-ized idea is that you have to "keep it fresh", but even after a night of freshening it up and the cheap lingerie is in the clothes hamper, and you pick up the kids from spending the night at your sisters house the morning after, you go back to the day-to-day marriage you've always had.

This is the sh!t no one tells you about when you're be sold on the Marriage Goal - the "now what?" that comes directly after you've found the ONE you've been looking for, or "did the right thing" with and married because she suddenly rediscovered religion AFTER you'd had marathon sex with her for 3 months straight and wouldn't abort the pregnancy.

People seem to get the impression that I'm "anti-marriage", I'm not. I'm anti- uninformed, pollyanna, shoulda saw it coming, ONEitis fueled, shame induced, bound for bankruptcy, marriage.

 

[Colossus]

There is a lot of anti-marriage undertones here. I cant speak for the other parts of sosuave because I mostly post in the MM forum, but we certainly have posters who are outright opposed to marriage--period.

I think you'll find that most of the 'regulars' here, the veterans I guess, have sort of mixed opinions on marriage. I think guys here are just more cognizant of the myriad ways things can and have gone wrong for men in most western marriages. It is undoubtedly one of the most impotant decisions you will ever make, and it should be approached as such.

I wont get started on the American women thing, but these days you HAVE to make an astute decision about who and what you are getting into. It's not just a "DJ" thing; it's being sensible and wise about your future. We have to learn from the mistakes of our fathers and friends.

I have set a personal boundary for myself that I will not get married or even consider marrying a woman until I am over 30 and established in my career. There is no rush. I also agree with Pook that having a wife and children is a natural longing of almost all men; it is not just women who want these things. Kids I'm not sold on, but who knows, I could change my mind.

 

[KontrollerX]

Its not at all beneficial to men in today's world so why would it be promoted on a forum for men?

And its not that the forum is necessarily anti marriage the question is more like T!ttyman already said...

Whats in it for men that they can't get without it?

The answer is there is nothing.

Men can get the same benefits from a long term girlfriend as they could get from having a wife and just having the girlfriend is more beneficial because if things turn to sh!t you can get rid of her without having to lose half your lifetime earnings nor do you waste precious years of your life battling in divorce court to keep as much of yours as is possible.

You can raise a child with a longterm girlfriend, you can live together with a longterm girlfriend, you can have a celebration of your relationship with friends and family like a wedding if you want.

You can do all that without getting married.

 

[SoCalMike]

I'm all for marriage with the right gal. One who works hard, and contributes, instead of being a burden.

Not too easy to find these days. Most women today want you to carry their lazy asses... pay for everything, while they slack off.

At least that's been my experience. I'm still hoping I will find a woman who will contribute, I view marriage as a team effort.

And the marriage/divorce laws usually end up hurting the man much worse than the woman, financially and emotionally - e.g. taking half your sh*t, custody of children, etc This is why many men are avoiding marriage.

 

[ketostix]

I'm all for marriage with the right gal. One who works hard, and contributes, instead of being a burden.

Not too easy to find these days. Most women today want you to carry their lazy asses... pay for everything, while they slack off.

At least that's been my experience. I'm still hoping I will find a woman who will contribute, I view marriage as a team effort.

And the marriage/divorce laws usually end up hurting the man much worse than the woman, financially and emotionally - e.g. taking half your sh*t, custody of children, etc This is why many men are avoiding marriage.

Yeah I don't think most guys here are anti-marriage. Anti-marriage to the wrong types of gals and against marriage/divorce laws, yes. I think marriage to the right gal has moire pluses than minuses. The truth is most people spend the majority of their life not playing the field. There are financial advantages to being married even over the hypothetical LTR GF. The downside risk is divorce, but really if a woman was contributing during the marriage you most likely won't lose more than you gained.

 

[NewMan]

I am not anti marrage - but I am pro protection.

I have to many friends that are married to a nasty, demanding, unapreciated woman. One who limits sex and even openly would rather their husbands take matters into their own hands, than satisfy their man.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all women are like this - but my guess would be - if 50% of marrages end in divorce - 80%+ are unhappy.

So what to do?

If you hired someone to install tile in your home - and 50%+ of the time, they did a crappy job or left an unfinished job - do you think the government would allow this kind of contract? yet marrage is allowed....

In this day and age, men need to protect themselves - they have to much to lose and to little protection.

 

[Luveno]

In today's current legal and social climate, marriage presents more dangers to the man than advantages.

Marriage primarily benefits a woman: she can have children and thus fulfill her maternal duty, and be supported by a male protector. If she tires of said male protector, she can have the marriage revoked yet still secure half or more of the assets of the male. It's essentially a win-win situation for the woman.

Due to this protection policy, it is not uncommon for a woman to "let herself go" once the vows are made. She knows the law is protecting her from any recourse on the male's part. Plus, it is extremely rare to see "becoming morbidly obese" or "no longer has interest in sex" as the male's carte blanche on annulling the vows. Unless she does something crazy like murder or fraud, divorce is a fiscally losing situation for the male.

As for raising children, it seems that marriages main function is to keep the man around to support kids. The laws inflict severe penalties on men who abandon children, or seek divorce. Thus, most guys would rather suffer in silence than sever the ties.

As it stands, there exists no objective benefit for the male to be married. All of the benefits are incurred by the female and the children.

 

[Colossus]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, but most of the legal and financial woes that result from a failed marriage can be averted if you do NOT sign a marriage license.

When you sign a marriage license your marriage becomes a jurisdiction of the state. An exerpt from wikipedia:

Black's Law Dictionary defines "license" as, "The permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission [...] would be illegal." The authority to license implies the power to prohibit . A license by definition "confers a privilege" to do something. By allowing the state to exercise control over marriage, it is implied that we do not have a right to marry; marriage is a privilege. Those born in the US receive a birth certificate, not a birth license. Most would object to a birth license as it would imply that people must gain permission to be born. Following that same logic, many refuse to accept a marriage license and exercise their right to marry without obtaining permission from the state.[1]

Some groups believe that the requirement to obtain a marriage licence is unnecessary or immoral. The Libertarian Party, for instance, believes that all marriages should be civil, not requiring sanction from the state.[2] Some Christian groups also argue that a marriage is a contract between two people and God, so that no authorization from the state is required.[3]

In 1993, parents in Wisconsin became upset because a test was being administered to their children in the government schools which was very invasive of the family’s privacy. When parents complained, they were shocked by the school bureaucrats who informed them that their children were required to take the test by law and that they would have to take the test because they (the government school) had jurisdiction over their children. When parents asked the bureaucrats what gave them jurisdiction, the bureaucrats answered, "your marriage license and their birth certificates."[4] Judicially, and in increasing fashion, practically, a state marriage license has far-reaching implications.

LEGALLY the government will not recognize your marriage without a marriage license. That means you cannot file joint taxes, be on the same insurance plan, or collect survivor's benefits and have other legal "access" that legally married couples have.

That does not mean that if you dont get one you are breaking the law. If you have at least 2 witnesses and a signed certificate from the church or where ever you got married, you can prove you have a wife---but it's more of a private contract between families. The state cannot enforce this.

Just some food for thought.

 

[LoneSilver]

Actor Alex Baldwin has a book out A promise To Ourselves and thinking about buying it where he talks about the present court system and how it treats fathers...http://us.macmillan.com/apromisetoourselves

I have seen many on TV make fun of Alex because of this book and the recorded message that was released to the public with his daughter only to try and discredit him...but any man that has balls of sense and even women can see what Alex Baldwin is trying to accomplish is good and positive and will benefit any future divorce that a court handles and that making it more fair for both mother and fathers.

It's my opinion and I'm one that has never married or am I even a father but even me and every man should get behind Alex Baldwin's cause as this should be looked at as a brotherhood that effects us all in some way.

Also check http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raoul-felder/alec-baldwins-ia-promise_b_127546.html

LoneSilver

 

[sodbuster]

I'm not anti marriage as such, more anti-ignorant marriage. If I do it again, I'll have a pre-nup[the best way to keep her honest]. But as far as the popular view of marriage and the way it works-not interested.

 

[( . )( . )]

Actor Alex Baldwin has a book out A promise To Ourselves and thinking about buying it where he talks about the present court system and how it treats fathers...http://us.macmillan.com/apromisetoourselves

I have seen many on TV make fun of Alex because of this book and the recorded message that was released to the public with his daughter only to try and discredit him...but any man that has balls of sense and even women can see what Alex Baldwin is trying to accomplish is good and positive and will benefit any future divorce that a court handles and that making it more fair for both mother and fathers.

It's my opinion and I'm one that has never married or am I even a father but even me and every man should get behind Alex Baldwin's cause as this should be looked at as a brotherhood that effects us all in some way.

Also check http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raoul-felder/alec-baldwins-ia-promise_b_127546.html

LoneSilver

Good stuff.

 

[STR8UP]

I'm not anti marriage as such, more anti-ignorant marriage. If I do it again, I'll have a pre-nup[the best way to keep her honest]. But as far as the popular view of marriage and the way it works-not interested.

I've never been married, but I feel the same way.

Most guys go into marriage due to societal pressure. They have NO IDEA what they are getting themselves into. They think that it's simply "the right thing to do". The g/f keeps nagging them to make it official, and before you know it they give in.

Any guy with his eyes open knows the odds going in. Are guys ignorant? Dumb?

I dunno, but if someone tried to get me to invest in a business venture that had no benefit to me over my current situation, and upon researching I realized that there was more than a 50% chance of me losing half of my life savings, and another 25% chance that I would not lose my life savings but would be chained to a business that I didn't particularly care for and didn't gain much satisfaction from, but I had to stick with it until I die "for the sake of the employees" I'm sure I would be DYING to sign those papers.....

If you had a camera you would get a great shot of my ass running away as fast as possible.

 

[MatureDJ]

Actually, I don't have a problem with the idea of division of property and perhaps even alimony - it is simply the severance package or pension for being in the marriage. Just as an employer should only hire someone full-time if she weer the perfect candidate for the job, so should a man only marry such a perfect woman for him. Otherwise, a man should just hire temps (i.e., have a girlfriend, not wife.)

The more I think about it, the more I want to wait until I am retired before getting married. It would only be at that time that I would be able to support a woman and children even if we were to get divorced.

 

[Ballie]

I started this thread to discuss marriage as such. In the old days it worked - my father and mother were very happy together and were an excellent example to emulate. As you guys know, mine failed after 20 years and I'm still coming to terms with that, but da Pook and others have helped a lot. Here in SA, the youngsters are still getting married and are happy especially the Afrikaaners and the Indians. It is sad that the Western youngsters yearn for something that is perfectly natural - especially the joy of raising kids in a protective enviroment that a good marriage provides. The failure rate is far too high, but some like Rollo know how to make it work and he is lucky. I think we here at SS are not woman haters - no DJ is and we have enough material available to know we have to choose a quality woman and qualify her and importantly have a pre-nup before we take that final step.

The problem of not having taken the step once - even say being engaged is that at the age of 50 you will feel the loneliness of not having someone to love unconditionally like children and also miss
out on grandchildren. You have betrayed your purpose in life and that is to procreat - why are we here after all? Also your game will suffer because they will think something is wrong with you. First qualifying question "Why are you still single?". "Recently got divorced" OK cool!

 

[slaog]

I started this thread to discuss marriage as such. In the old days it worked

Yes it did. Thats because people were not as brainwashed as they are now. Always looking for more more more and never satisified. Men who have a great wife will still go off and fvck other women when they can get away with it and some women are as bad.

Real men are few these days. Real women are few too. Everybody is more negative and that spreads like a disease. People are brainwashed into thinking material things are good for them. Companies don't spend billions in advertising for nothing.


In nature some animals have a mate for life like swans etc. So it's not unnatural to meet somebody and marry them and have a successful marraige.

 

[STR8UP]

Actually, I don't have a problem with the idea of division of property and perhaps even alimony - it is simply the severance package or pension for being in the marriage. Just as an employer should only hire someone full-time if she weer the perfect candidate for the job, so should a man only marry such a perfect woman for him. Otherwise, a man should just hire temps (i.e., have a girlfriend, not wife.).

I don't have a problem with the idea of it either, and if you could count on an equitable split, there would be no problem, but we all know that isn't the case in the US.

As for the employee analogy....

I have seen one too many "good" girls turn into witches during a breakup. They will go to the ends of the earth to justify cheating, or any other inappropriate behavior. Anything to avoid accepting responsibility. I shudder to think of how that would be if there was a marriage and kids involved.

Until I am able to get my hands on a functional crystal ball, I will be very hesitant to "hire an employee" I will probably have to pay a severance to. 1099 all the way baby!