Is real estate still a good investment?

STR8UP

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Originally posted by sapphire
What is your secret or rather how do you make real estate work for you? Do you buy and sell, hold on, etc.? I am quite curious.
I started out buying and holding, which over the years built me enough equity to be able to get the ball really rolling.

At this point the strategy is to ride out the downtown revitalization boom for the next year or so, then jump into primarily commercial property.

We have a few units which we intend to flip for some quick cash, but other than that we just play everything by ear. We have a restaurant property that we initially intended to lease out and hold, but it looks like we might just hold out for a buyer and move on to a different project.

I guess what I am saying is that there is no set game plan. Whatever helps to acheive the long term goal, that's the direction we go.
 

djbr

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Originally posted by STR8UP
As tempted as I am to get lured into a pissing match with you, I would rather save my responses for something constructive. To my knowledge the only thing that you have ever had to contribute to any of the numerous wealth building threads is "Don't get your advice from people on the internet".
Hehe. If we follow this "don't get your advice from internet people", let's all go back to AFCism cause it's where most people were before this forum. And oops, this is an internet forum isn't it?

Oh oh...
 

STR8UP

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Originally posted by djbr
Hehe. If we follow this "don't get your advice from internet people", let's all go back to AFCism cause it's where most people were before this forum. And oops, this is an internet forum isn't it?

Oh oh...
Yea, anyone who has a DSL line and a computer couldn't possibly know what they are talking about!

Stupid internet users.
 

STR8UP

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Originally posted by Docs
That's the thing though. "Anyone"
Gotta pick and choose your information carefully there, bud. Doesn't just apply to investment advice either.

The problem is, usually only someone who has progressed to a higher level can recognize good info.

For newbies it's a little more difficult because everyone is used to hearing the same old B.S. from well intentioned (and usually poor or middle class) friends and relatives who are simply repeating what THEY grew up hearing.

It's just funny to me to hear people who have little or no experience automatically dispel any kind of knowledge, education, wisdom, or information that goes contrary to what they THINK they know. Basically, if you can't tell someone the right way to do something, you have no business preaching what you believe to be the wrong way.
 

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djbr

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STR8UP, I'm totally with you.

My dad don't even finished elementary school and managed to have an awesome amount of assets. His downfall came exactly when he started to hear people whose education were "better" than his (college graduates, high school graduates). They had the education but not the financial education.

...and here I am, trying to save the assets he left from being eaten by the debts. :)
 

A-Unit

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Re:

Regarding "is it a good investment."

As long as the Fed can expand and contract the money supply at its own will and raise rates or lower them at their own whim, TANGIBLE, PHYSICAL, unmanipulatable assets WILL retain their value.

Gold, centuries ago, would have bought a man a suit, belt, and a nice pair of shoes.

Gold, today, would buy the same, given it's $500/oz price tag.

However, $1 dollar bill of fake paper money NOT backed by anything, will always lose its value over time. So it's foolish NOT to convert DOLLARS into assets that RISE against this ever-coming tide.

Stocks only have staying power IF the underlying company does well. But companies are MORE subject to what the gov. arbitrarily does, as they are more subject to the international markets, too.

I could go on. Sure, you might not find the quick bucks like you would have 10, 20, 30 years ago, but what if you HAD not bought R/E long ago and continued renting, or only owning your 1 home, where would you be?



A-Unit


Ps. The Fed is the biggest scam going, when you consider they create cash from NOTHING, no backing, THEN charge interest to US the consumer/borrower. Moreover, the gov. should only be using what tax revenue they have at their fingertips. Instead, the Fed can print endless money, wage war, fund immediate projects they desire, all at the bequest of congress. Paper money is a sham.
 

sapphire

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Well, I just got the news that new housing starts rose a whopping 33% for the quarter meaning that the supposed new housing start meltdown is jujst a myth. But it looks like, the Fed will continue to raise rates. :(
 

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Re:

Their raise in rates is only to fvck with the American public.

Money made from nothing, which has no inherent value, is still hit with interest.

Rate rises MIGHT be bad for those seeking to get more house for the buck, but overall, it's not bad for the consumers who over by, borrow equity, or are using interest only loans beyond their financial position, with no advanced knowledge of what they're doing.

Frankly, the gov CANNOT manipulate the economy. That much was learned by those who took ECON 101. Furthermore, the ECONOMY begin its REAL boom/bust cycles WHEN the Fed was introduced....

Think, Great Depression. Think, Multiple Recessions. Think, Black Friday. All of the GREAT expand/contract cycles occurred POST Fed creation, which in fact was a contrived experiment to SHIFT power from central new york city, wall street, and enable the gov. to indebt America into world banking, by printing money as they see fit.

If we didn't have the tax receipts for Operation Mine Oil over in the middle east, we COULD NOT GO, without SOME real creativity by the gov, and a tax hike that the American public would agree upon (remember when military taxes were institued only temporarily and the gov had to BEG in order to fund it?).

But I digress, I'm off topic.

All the times it was suspected the gov would influence markets, it didn't happen. And all the times it was thought they couldn't, THEY did. Not only are credit card borrowers subject to 2% repayment, instead of 1%, their rates are rising, as are student loans. MOST kids will come out in the next few years with repayment schedules FAR higher than expected, with even LESS jobs paying LESS than expected.

You realize the scam going on, when a long-term mortage highlights the fact you pay MORE in funding the house, or any purchase, than the actual cost of it. And the fact such money is from NOWHERE, is what we call USORY.

Yes, I'm passionate, but BY GOD, I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!



A_Unit
 

DrMetallica

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Re: Re:

Originally posted by A-Unit
Their raise in rates is only to fvck with the American public.

Money made from nothing, which has no inherent value, is still hit with interest.

Rate rises MIGHT be bad for those seeking to get more house for the buck, but overall, it's not bad for the consumers who over by, borrow equity, or are using interest only loans beyond their financial position, with no advanced knowledge of what they're doing.

Frankly, the gov CANNOT manipulate the economy. That much was learned by those who took ECON 101. Furthermore, the ECONOMY begin its REAL boom/bust cycles WHEN the Fed was introduced....

Think, Great Depression. Think, Multiple Recessions. Think, Black Friday. All of the GREAT expand/contract cycles occurred POST Fed creation, which in fact was a contrived experiment to SHIFT power from central new york city, wall street, and enable the gov. to indebt America into world banking, by printing money as they see fit.

If we didn't have the tax receipts for Operation Mine Oil over in the middle east, we COULD NOT GO, without SOME real creativity by the gov, and a tax hike that the American public would agree upon (remember when military taxes were institued only temporarily and the gov had to BEG in order to fund it?).

But I digress, I'm off topic.

All the times it was suspected the gov would influence markets, it didn't happen. And all the times it was thought they couldn't, THEY did. Not only are credit card borrowers subject to 2% repayment, instead of 1%, their rates are rising, as are student loans. MOST kids will come out in the next few years with repayment schedules FAR higher than expected, with even LESS jobs paying LESS than expected.

You realize the scam going on, when a long-term mortage highlights the fact you pay MORE in funding the house, or any purchase, than the actual cost of it. And the fact such money is from NOWHERE, is what we call USORY.

Yes, I'm passionate, but BY GOD, I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!



A_Unit
I admire your spirit A unit, but what ****e
 

A-Unit

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Re:

Forgive me, what word is bleeped out that ends in an -E- ?


A-Unit
 

Page

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At this point, I'm not sure when the housing bubble in so cal will burst, so I'm just biding my time. Right now, properties are overvalued by about half, and if I jump in now (even if I could), I'll lose my shirt when prices fall.


When the market falls, I'll be ready b/c i'll have good credit and proof of income by then.
 

djbr

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Re: Re:

Originally posted by A-Unit
Their raise in rates is only to fvck with the American public.

Money made from nothing, which has no inherent value, is still hit with interest.

Rate rises MIGHT be bad for those seeking to get more house for the buck, but overall, it's not bad for the consumers who over by, borrow equity, or are using interest only loans beyond their financial position, with no advanced knowledge of what they're doing.

Frankly, the gov CANNOT manipulate the economy. That much was learned by those who took ECON 101. Furthermore, the ECONOMY begin its REAL boom/bust cycles WHEN the Fed was introduced....

Think, Great Depression. Think, Multiple Recessions. Think, Black Friday. All of the GREAT expand/contract cycles occurred POST Fed creation, which in fact was a contrived experiment to SHIFT power from central new york city, wall street, and enable the gov. to indebt America into world banking, by printing money as they see fit.

If we didn't have the tax receipts for Operation Mine Oil over in the middle east, we COULD NOT GO, without SOME real creativity by the gov, and a tax hike that the American public would agree upon (remember when military taxes were institued only temporarily and the gov had to BEG in order to fund it?).

But I digress, I'm off topic.

All the times it was suspected the gov would influence markets, it didn't happen. And all the times it was thought they couldn't, THEY did. Not only are credit card borrowers subject to 2% repayment, instead of 1%, their rates are rising, as are student loans. MOST kids will come out in the next few years with repayment schedules FAR higher than expected, with even LESS jobs paying LESS than expected.

You realize the scam going on, when a long-term mortage highlights the fact you pay MORE in funding the house, or any purchase, than the actual cost of it. And the fact such money is from NOWHERE, is what we call USORY.

Yes, I'm passionate, but BY GOD, I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!



A_Unit
You mean 2% PER MONTH?

Dude, that's so cheap. :D

Credit card interest around here goes around 11,9% per month.

If you want to invest in another country, try us! My government RAPE us with this shyt! :(

Here money is the deal. If you get in debt, you're ****ed. Unpaid debt gets doubled in just one year, sometimes even less.
 

al77

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Re: Re:

Originally posted by A-Unit
The Fed is the biggest scam going, when you consider they create cash from NOTHING, no backing, THEN charge interest to US the consumer/borrower.
While it is true...what do you suggest? No Feds? Better Feds?
As far as I know they are one of the best Feds in the World if we are talking about doing bussiness, investing etc.

For example, in some Eastern Europena countries you can do nothing and get about %12-15 interest on your money you put ina bank. Mutual funds are doing way better 80% profit per year is not uncommon. But hey, when you go there, you will figure out their "Feds" are much worse, and you don't want to deal with them even if the bank will pay you 100% interest.

We just have to compare what we have with what we could have...
 

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A-Unit

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Re:

True enough, al77.

But, the "we have it the best of the worst" attitude isn't cutting it in America.

How the Fed works.

1) Originally, banking was fractionalized. Money was backed by gold. So the only budget that could be spent, was that collected by taxes, and to add another tax for another "special project", Congress needed the support of "taxpayers."

2) The Wealthiest Men in the world got together, including Paul Warburg and Senator Aldrich. The meeting was held on Jekyll Island, in such secrecy, all parties traveled separately. The intention: decentralize power from Wall St, where it was humming along, and usurp money, interest, and taxes via the invisible creation of money.

3) The Federal Reserve Act was passed through Democrats, wealthy one's, as it would have been shot down if only done by Republicans under the guise of a Central banking system.

4) Once instituted 12 fed banks were created that hold NOTHING. They issue and clear checks, that's it, and anyone that has taken fin. courses, KNOWS, the money creation process. It's as follows.

A] Big Brother opens his check book for whatever monies are required, getting paper money ready to print. The check, drawn on Federal Reserve credit, is then deposited, $1,000,000,000 magically appears in the banks. As such, ALL outstanding monies decline in value with each issuance of new money.

The alternate route is to OFFER treasury securities and bonds, BRINGING dollars in, in exchange for these "securities" (which are considered as good as gold since it's Government-related). The cash is brought IN HOUSE, and then spent on special projects, such as war, or social security.

Who pays the interest on the debt?

Us, the taxpayers.

WE pay ourselves back through taxes. Problem is, ONCE you release more cash into the stream of flow, the dollars are less, so it takes MORE tax dollars to meet the obligations of interest from what we owe.

So a few things happen...
1. Debt accrues
2. We funnel money from other projects to service the debt
3. We print money like crazy, causing hyperinflation, much like you see the world around, devaluing dollars like mad to just pay off the debt.

B] Once new money is available, it is deposited in commerical banks. Since we have what's known as a FRACTIONAL RESERVE system, a bank only has to hold a % of the actual deposits. It ranges around 10-50% (I don't know the actual number as of now, but they RARELY change it). Let's say it's 10%. 90% can now be loaned out.

"Hey people, we have money to loan! And because there's a surplus, interest rates are low! Just 4% for home loans!"

And bam, $900,000,000 is readily available at 4%. This money is then borrow by debtor, and summarily HIS/HER money is deposited into ANOTHER bank at some point, wherein, 90% is available AGAIN for borrowing. It continues this way infinatem, until the GOV realizes it went a little nutty, and has to JACK up the rates on the money THEY loan commercial banks, which inturn HITS everybody else, SLOWING down the velocity of money.

Think of it LIKE carbs hitting your body. Normally, if carbs are ingested w/out any fats or protein, they spike GI like crazy. But in the presence of protein/fats, its a slow absorption. Same with cash. If cash is readily available in an evironment that wants it, BAM, it circulates like crazy.

That's why, when the market was tanking, and the economy was heading down, the FED tanked rates, in the hopes it could spawn commerce amongst people, businesses, and investors, through the borrowing of low interest money.

In turn, the hope is by the Gov, that people will, borrow, spend and stimulate. In most cases though, all you did was spawn a real estate boom, that resulted in people getting more house for the buck, since each 1/4% can mean THOUSANDS in more or less money available for a home, car, or school loan, based on credit worthiness.

--------------------------------------------

But where did the original money come from?

NOWHERE. Just the powers that were granted by the Federal Reserve act and a few wealthy businessman who wanted to usurp power through the banking system.

They use the power we gave them, borrow fake money, plug it into the system, and let the taxpayers pay the bills, while debt surges, our trade balance grows more imbalanced, and our dollar declines because we're offering money like crazy all the time and we have mounting debts. Not to mention, you're paying interest on nothing. NOTHING. It was fake money, never real, never backed.

Since the Fed is more related to the problems of what has happened in the last 60-70 years, including the depression, financing wars, black monday, exhaustive interest rates, and so on, I ask, is it really the devil we want, since it benefits only a FEW people in the country?



A-Unit
 

diplomatic_lies

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At least in the USA:

-You don't need to spend 3 years doing paperwork to start a business (Brazil boy might know something about this)
-Organised crime isn't as worse as 3rd world countries
-The economy is stable that there isn't a crash every decade
-There's no war
-You don't get 50% of your income taxed like the Europeans

Be happy for that.
 

djbr

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Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
At least in the USA:

-You don't need to spend 3 years doing paperwork to start a business (Brazil boy might know something about this)
No. Anyone here can start a business, and the paperwork is the easy part. The hard part is making it work. Taxes everywhere takes all the profit you may have, and if you need to borrow some cash, well, you're fvcked. Interest here is so high, I think there's just one country that has it (even) bigger than we do.

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
-Organised crime isn't as worse as 3rd world countries
That's for sure. The crime here is serious stuff.

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
-The economy is stable that there isn't a crash every decade
We're better now than in the past, but there's a lot that must be done yet.

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
-There's no war
The war we have here is the organized crime one. It's hellish. :(

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
-You don't get 50% of your income taxed like the Europeans
Taxes in Brazil are just plain RAPE.

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
Be happy for that.
You should. I would like to know USA, it seems to have a lot of good things. But it's nice, especially for us 3rd country people, to know it's not the HEAVEN the movies make us think it is.
 

al77

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Re: Re:

Originally posted by A-Unit
True enough, al77.

But, the "we have it the best of the worst" attitude isn't cutting it in America.

But where did the original money come from?

NOWHERE. Just the powers that were granted by the Federal Reserve act and a few wealthy businessman who wanted to usurp power through the banking system.

They use the power we gave them, borrow fake money, plug it into the system, and let the taxpayers pay the bills, while debt surges, our trade balance grows more imbalanced, and our dollar declines because we're offering money like crazy all the time and we have mounting debts. Not to mention, you're paying interest on nothing. NOTHING. It was fake money, never real, never backed.

Since the Fed is more related to the problems of what has happened in the last 60-70 years, including the depression, financing wars, black monday, exhaustive interest rates, and so on, I ask, is it really the devil we want, since it benefits only a FEW people in the country?
I am amazed a bit. You are dig into so wide range of details... which is obvious good. I am also amazed you don't offer some sort of solutions...

I'd like to point out some facts that might be useful here:

1. What goverment, the Fed etc do benefits only a certain limited group of people. Sometimes just a few. Usually friends, ceratin parties etc. So IMHO everything they do benefits only a FEW people.

2. While inflation is not a good thing, but _historically_ the Feds delt with it very successfully in this country. There were time when inflation was much higher and they managed to curb it very well. Again "very well" is relative to how it would be managed in other countries. There is no perfect Feds or a perfect country.

Lets now anayze the situation: I suggest we have to look at what causes the inflation we have now. My guess would the two largest expenses: huge military spending and enormous spending on health care. If we take it further and look what has been done to "fix" the situation.. well, it seems they are going in the opposite direction: increasing military spending and still increasing health care expenses (but not to that extent).
Taking into account 1) we can conclude it is all about current politics, which we should nto discuss here.

2) It gives us a surprisingly good conclusion: we should not worry about inflation at all. It is the devil, but it can be and will be curbed. In fact the worst economic situation in the last century was causes by deflation which is the opposite in inflation.

We just got a new, fresh, young main Fed, stock market is going up..the inflation is high but not roaring.. it does not sound too bad at this particular moment? It could, but we certainly didn't reach that state yet.
 

A-Unit

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Investments are ALWAYS Good.

Buffett/Graham used to say..."A rising tide floats all boats."

A rising stock market, when it's public HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. That means, much of the REAL MONEY has been made. When it's public, sure, you can make 10, 20, 30%, but there are WISE investors already in, finding deals, making upwards of 100%! THAT is investing. It isn't about "hearing" what's good or bad...it's about discovering for yourself what seems valuable.

In mutual funds, index funds, ETF's, and anything that is actively/passively managed, you'll ride the coaster, to one degree or another of how the market does. That, however, does not mean some stocks are not flying high, you just don't own them, or don't know of them.

When I hear "is the market good now", I hear...

-someone trying to make a buck now.
-someone now committed to a long-term plan of saving/investing.
-someone who isn't aware that opportunity ALWAYS exists.

In investing with mutual funds, while the US large cap growth/value sector might be underperforming historical averages, small caps, mid caps, and international MIGHT be. THAT is diversification. In mutual fund investing, if you're not actively persuing the market, then go truly diversified. When the market tanked off in 00, 01, and 02, bonds flew well. They propped up many falling portfolios with 5, 7, and even 15% returns. Diversification DOES work with the market, especially if it's your "SAFE" retirement plan.

I'd say the same applies to Real Estate, because it's NOT about the property, IT's ALL about the OWNERSHIP. Location matters, but you have to find WILLING sellers/buyers to make deals. You might find perfect locations, but no one is selling. Markets do impact to 1 degree or another, the amount of availability on either side. For instance, the glut of interest only mortages combined with the TRUE floundering economy, will result in increased foreclosures, leading the proactive investors to find numerous deals.

I went through the same thing with stock investing. For years, I studied stocks, read, even took numerous courses in college. I could evaluate, talk the lingo, and even build great plans, but I never actually put to work my own information. Useless. Utterly useless. However, I finally took action, made deposits, made some stock plays, and never looked back. It's fun. You learn and grow. JUST JUMP IN, both feet.

--------------------------------------

All that economics touted on the news are near 100% WRONG. They're used to keep consumers OVERBUYING, to induce market cycles, and manipulate money. Back when we were about to go off the Gold Standard, FDR told all his cronies that Gold would be re-priced from $20 per ounce, to $35 per ounce, or the effective holdings would be multipled by 1.5. This happened behind the scenes, without the general public knowing. All holders of paper money lost out, while all holders of gold WON.

Moreover, the jobs being CREATED aren't necessarily WEALTH creation jobs. Not that many of us want to be saddled to the "man" for life, BUT, it's useful to know what statistics are true and what are false. Jobs being created are minimum wage, or ones CLOSE to min. wage, such as restaurantes, admin, and low wage employees. Manufacturing goes over seas, mostly to China and India, along with much of our tele-centers. A global economy lowers the effective wages of the wealthy countries TRANSFERRING wealth to the poorer nations, sort of. The wealth really flows up, to shareholders and owners, because manufacturers in the new country aren't going to pay the market rate of the world. Instead, they pay as minimal as they can, like 3cents per hour in most of these countries. And while cost of living is lower in other countries, 3cents/hour isn't enough to live on, or build any future value. It's dubious as to whether this helps or hurts the country.

MOST economics professors, teachers, and doctors will tell you the CPI (inflation) basic DISCOUNTS the major inflationary devices. These include, housing, fuels, and healthcare. Housing has risen, and with rising home values, taxes rise, as does the governments imposition of NEW taxes to pay for this war, and future obligations of social security/medicare. As far as fuel goes, that isn't likely to come down as long as we use the long-forgotten model of FOSSIL fuels being LIMITED and FINITE. They're not. And they're proving this to be true. I've met with many elderly and soon-to-be retirees and their biggest worries are...

-Rising costs of gas.
-Rising costs of Prescription drugs.
-Rising costs of healthcare and nursing homes.
-Rising costs of home price and retirement homes.

Clothes don't necessarily RISE in price, because you can go to wal-mart, HOWEVER, Jeans are ON AVERAGE more than they were years ago. So the MAJOR components to life have risen at near exponential rates. Whereas non-basic items have risen by the CPI standard. Yeah, computers are cheaper, but given the amount of viruses, spyware, storage, and performance required by web pages, the price hasn't been a DRAMATIC drop. You get MORE for $1000, and computers aren't near the 2000, nor are the laptops that HIGH, but technological change has only imposed GREATER demands for increased performance and capability.

Lastly, inflation is the hidden tax. Most citizens already give up 10-15% of their income at the minimum, and more likely the average is 20%, leaving the average wages of $50,000 with $40,000 of disposable income. If you spent every dollar, your sales tax, real estate taxes, car taxes, gas taxes, alcohol taxes, tobacco taxes, capital gains taxes, and even taxes on taxes incurred during the process of producing whatever you buy, you can see that taxes themselves fleece the population of nearly 50% of what they make AND more!!!

If you're fine with that, FINE, but I'm not, and my dollars are the last voting right we have.

Inflation is a manipulation of money depending on what the Fed wants to do, and normally that is dependent on whatever their agenda is.

Is it war?
Is it savings?
Tax cutting?
Is it social programs?
Is it spending?

And dollars ARE NOT a store of value. Investments exists AS A STORE of value, to produce income, or to stay constant throughout your life. Gold is the first store. Real estate, the second, though more cumbersome. Stocks can be, if you know what you're doing, as can other currencies, too. However, people NEED to be enlightened to the fleecing they incur EVERYDAY, and stop watching American Idol in the process. GET OUT, GET ACTIVE, and remember the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights was written to PROTECT people from Government, BOTTOM LINE, and at NO point in history should we forget. At not point should we feel like they're a BENEVOLENT father. In fact, they're a conniving, jealous mother, that will manipulate you into getting what they want.

That's the bottom line.

A-Unit
 

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