Is PUA TACTICS better than DJ TACTICS for learning?

[Zero Hero]

I'll be honest...it seems like most of the people on this board fall into the self improvement trap and don't actually improve with women. They get built up, get a life, make some improvements, but they can't get rid of APPROACH ANXIETY (see Jayer). This board is so THEORETICAL I don't know if it is helping a lot of people. I have made so much more ground with the worst ****ing approaches in the world than I have from anything I've read here. I suggest people start doing some PUA and I'm gonna switch to PUA myself for the time being...yes it is PHONY, but it brings results and then you switch over to NATURAL. I think 95% of the people here would benefit by doing this. At the least, just go in the field and stop posting theoretical bullcrap.

 

[Sean O]

Overcoming approach anxiety is different from using PUA tactics. You overcome approach anxiety by approaching and getting rejected (usually by getting rejected, that is), but you don't have to use PUA tactics to approach, yeah?

Anyway, there is a problem with your question: DJs don't use "tactics". Their game is all natural. It comes from the core of their character. In other words, they have inner game. Having said that, I disagree that PUA tactics are better than inner game. Sure, they can work sometimes, but using PUA tactics doesn't really help you deal with the problems that were holding you back the first place; they just act as a crutch. Developing inner game, however, will not only increase your success with women, but the newfound strength of character you get will branch out to benefit you in other areas of your life, as well. And also, believe me, it's SO much more relaxed and comfortable to pick up chicks by being your natural, strong, inner-game rich self than it is to pick up chicks by memorizing petty techniques and lines, and constantly strategizing on how and when to apply them.

 

[Zero Hero]

I agree with you....what I am saying is that a lot of people NEED the crutch...I'm tired of people like Jayer who spend 2 years approaching no chick cause they need the perfect line. If they did PUA they'd have a handful of canned lines to use, then when they get comfortable they can revert to NATURAL game. Inner game is great, but it often doesn't work you see on this forum.

 

[I love Hyori Lee]

You need both. Both sides.

Don't be that guy who just focuses on one thing and gets bitter. People like Bvbidd think that self-improvement is lame, but he just focused on one side and assumed things from his own personal failure.

And he's a fool for that.

Because you need more than just self-improvement and self-affirmation. You need the rest of the package.

Don't be bitter over your own failures and assume it applies to everything.

Don't be like Bvbidd.

He was a fool for saying self-improvement is lame. But he wasn't looking at both sides. And his own failures with women prompted him to believe that.

Don't be that bitter fool.

You need both sides.

One side focuses on your self-improvement.

The other side focuses on your ability to speak.

You need both.

 

[Sean O]

Okay, I see what you're saying. PUA tactics can indeed help one get his foot in the door if his approach anxiety is enormous, and as long as he doesn't continue to rely on the tactics, and strives to develop his inner game once he's no longer so uncomfortable with approaching, everything's good.

 

[Sean O]

The other side focuses on your ability to speak.

You have a point. PUA tactics can provide a sort of "template" for how to have interesting conversations with women. The problem is that many people adhere to these templates too rigidly, and because of that, they don't really learn to "go with the flow". That's my biggest complaint with the conversation section of the DJ Bible, and why I always say it sucks: it looks at conversation as being too predictable. I always tell people to read the blogs on www.charismaarts.com instead, simply because the advice found there is much more down-to-earth, much more easily applicable, and also more free-flowing and laid back. In other words, it's just plain more effective.

 

[I love Hyori Lee]

And one thing I've come to realize is the philosophy of self-improvement.

People are all different and are born with certain gifts and attributes.

I'm a car fanatic.

The average player who reads these tips and improves upon himself may be like a Honda Civic that gets modifications and adjustments to improve on the engine, etc.

But the world is filled with all kinds of cars. Ferraris, Mercedes, BMWS, Pintos, Chevy Impalas, Dodge Neons, Geo Metros, etc.

That's how they were built and born. Self-improvement can only bring you so far. A completely modded up piece of **** car is still a piece of **** car. And a Ferrari without self-improvement is still a Ferrari. Some of us were born like Ferraris. Some of us were born like F150 trucks. But you see, we're all different. And a common myth that most people have is that self-improvement will get you everything. But you see. A suped up Honda Civic isn't the same as a "stock" Rolls Royce.

And a suped up Ferrari...that's a player who was born with the looks, body, money and is currently reading this website.

People who complain about self-improvement. They are the Pintos that are getting suped up....but they're still Pintos.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...People who complain about self-improvement. They are the Pintos that are getting suped up....but they're still Pintos.

Interesting analogy. I see the guys who forgo self improvement as guys who are putting their success with women ahead of their internal, self provided happiness. It's as if they need to get their validation from their success rate with women. I wouldn't base my happiness on something as volatile and ambiguous as women. Besides, I see more guys who are genuinely happy with themselves being pretty successful with women as a byproduct of their well lived lives.

 

[L777]

And one thing I've come to realize is the philosophy of self-improvement.

People are all different and are born with certain gifts and attributes.

I'm a car fanatic.

The average player who reads these tips and improves upon himself may be like a Honda Civic that gets modifications and adjustments to improve on the engine, etc.

But the world is filled with all kinds of cars. Ferraris, Mercedes, BMWS, Pintos, Chevy Impalas, Dodge Neons, Geo Metros, etc.

That's how they were built and born. Self-improvement can only bring you so far. A completely modded up piece of **** car is still a piece of **** car. And a Ferrari without self-improvement is still a Ferrari. Some of us were born like Ferraris. Some of us were born like F150 trucks. But you see, we're all different. And a common myth that most people have is that self-improvement will get you everything. But you see. A suped up Honda Civic isn't the same as a "stock" Rolls Royce.

And a suped up Ferrari...that's a player who was born with the looks, body, money and is currently reading this website.

People who complain about self-improvement. They are the Pintos that are getting suped up....but they're still Pintos.

I'm sorry this is complete bollocks. Its so clearly bollocks that I'm not gonna bother explaining why. It just is.

 

[abcd_z]

Yeah, I'm with L777 on this one. To claim that, no matter what you do, you can't improve, is an incredibly limiting belief. I mean, just look at Neil Strauss' improvement in The Game. If he had believed that he just wasn't a Ferarri, or whatever, then he never would have tried, and would have "proved" his own inability to improve. Looks, money, and body aren't really necessary, either. I mean, come on. Have you ever actually seen a picture of Neil?

And to respond to Zero Hero: The DJ bible is definitely useful for improving inner game (attitudes and mindsets), just as a strong PUA toolbox is useful for outer game (what's actually said and done during the approaches).

 

[Demon]

I'm sorry this is complete bollocks. Its so clearly bollocks that I'm not gonna bother explaining why. It just is.

I agree. The problem with the car analogy is that Pintos cannot transform into Ferraris. People can change. They can adapt. Adaptation is the ability that has fueled our species' survival through the ages. Fatalism is an ancient view of the world, and is no longer accepted by any serious philosopher.

There's no such thing as destiny. We determine our own path. We make our own fate. Nobody is a born loser or a born winner. We enter this world into an environment that we cannot immediately change; however, we are free to do as we please once we have the intelligence and willingness to create the world in our vision.

 

[Brutus]

First of all, there's no such thing as "self-improvement trap". The essence of self-improvement is not about reading stuff, it's about doing stuff in the real world. Reading on and on and on is "paralysis of analysis trap", and this is the trap that Jayer guy is actually in. I know this trap very well, I'm not completely out of it yet.

The trap consists of belief that you have to learn everything in theory before you start applying in the real world. The idea is that this way you'll minimize mistakes and thus, failures. So, behind paralysis of analysis is fear of failure, simple as that. It was said 10000 times here: you don't get over your fear by avoidance or procrastination, you get over it by consistently confronting it.

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. NO PHILOSOPHER, INTELLECTUAL, SCIENTIST OR ANY OTHER GENIUS IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND HAVEN'T FIND THE OTHER WAY, BUT THESE GUYS THINK THEY WILL.

THEY STILL WANT TO PULL THIS STUFF RISK-FREE.
THEY STILL HAVEN'T PUT ASIDE THEIR EGO.
THEY STILL AVOID PAIN.
THEY STILL THINK THEY WILL DIE OF EMBARRASEMENT IF TINY GIRL LAUGHS TO THEIR FACE AND CALL THEM LOSER.
THEY STILL FEAR FAILURE ALTHOUGH IT WAS SAID MILLION TIMES THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS FAILURE.

THEY STILL WANT THEIR MOM DO IT FOR THEM.

You know what? This is a slap in the face to all those fine men in the DJ Bible who took their time and made an effort to post here TO HELP US. THEY FIGURED IT OUT, GAVE US A DETAILED MAP TO GOLDEN TREASURE BUT WE'RE STILL LOOKING FOR BETTER WAY.

IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!! AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!

OK, got little pissed there (at myself too). Look, I was reading Book Of Pook lately. This is the guy who figured it out. I know here are some people who bash him and say that he's talking crap, he didn't post field reports so he can't be the real deal. But you know what? His posts - they're written the way they can't be fake (unless you're David Blane or whatshisname). You don't figure out all that sh!t by seating on your a$$ and reading books.

And he told us, forget lines, tecniques and go natural. I believe he was telling this so that we wouldn't waste time with PUA stuff. So that we would skip a phase, because is useless. And then, ZERO HERO SAYS LETS GO PUA WAY ANYWAY. JESUS FVCKIN CHRIST!!!

Look, here's what I'll do. This month, I'll sift through posts in DJ Bible, Don Juan Gold Tip Album and Sosuave Hall Of Fame. I'll organize them into nice sections, edit them a little bit (because some look like they were written by a 10 year old - but the info is gold) and compile a book out of them. I already did some pre-work, it will be around 700-800 (!) pages.

Then I'm done looking for more information because I DON'T NEED MORE THEORY. That will be my reference guide so that when I stumble upon an obstacle, when I feel down or unmotivated etc., I'll read relevant posts and get back on track. Everything I need theorywise will be there.

When I say everything I don't mean a tactic for every single situation, but I don't need a tactic for every single situation. I just need RIGHT MINDSET AND OVERALL STRATEGY. Besides, you can't prepare in advance for every possible thing that can come up.

It pisses me off when I come to this site, and as soon as I see titles of threads I KNOW posters didn't read the Bible, otherwise they wouldn't ask those questions. Goddamn quick fix mentality.

Think about it guys - 800 pages. YOU DON'T THINK IT'S MORE THAN ENOUGH? And I know I could probably shrink it to half of that size, because there are the same points over and over, but I think it's OK to read the same points many times so they really sink... Plus people have different styles and points of view and I think it's good to look at the same thing from different perspectives.

OK, I'm out.

 

[Sean O]

First of all, there's no such thing as "self-improvement trap". The essence of self-improvement is not about reading stuff, it's about doing stuff in the real world. Reading on and on and on is "paralysis of analysis trap", and this is the trap that Jayer guy is actually in. I know this trap very well, I'm not completely out of it yet.

The trap consists of belief that you have to learn everything in theory before you start applying in the real world. The idea is that this way you'll minimize mistakes and thus, failures. So, behind paralysis of analysis is fear of failure, simple as that. It was said 10000 times here: you don't get over your fear by avoidance or procrastination, you get over it by consistently confronting it.

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. NO PHILOSOPHER, INTELLECTUAL, SCIENTIST OR ANY OTHER GENIUS IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND HAVEN'T FIND THE OTHER WAY, BUT THESE GUYS THINK THEY WILL.

THEY STILL WANT TO PULL THIS STUFF RISK-FREE.
THEY STILL HAVEN'T PUT ASIDE THEIR EGO.
THEY STILL AVOID PAIN.
THEY STILL THINK THEY WILL DIE OF EMBARRASEMENT IF TINY GIRL LAUGHS TO THEIR FACE AND CALL THEM LOSER.
THEY STILL FEAR FAILURE ALTHOUGH IT WAS SAID MILLION TIMES THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS FAILURE.

THEY STILL WANT THEIR MOM DO IT FOR THEM.

You know what? This is a slap in the face to all those fine men in the DJ Bible who took their time and made an effort to post here TO HELP US. THEY FIGURED IT OUT, GAVE US A DETAILED MAP TO GOLDEN TREASURE BUT WE'RE STILL LOOKING FOR BETTER WAY.

IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!! AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!

OK, got little pissed there (at myself too). Look, I was reading Book Of Pook lately. This is the guy who figured it out. I know here are some people who bash him and say that he's talking crap, he didn't post field reports so he can't be the real deal. But you know what? His posts - they're written the way they can't be fake (unless you're David Blane or whatshisname). You don't figure out all that sh!t by seating on your a$$ and reading books.

And he told us, forget lines, tecniques and go natural. I believe he was telling this so that we wouldn't waste time with PUA stuff. So that we would skip a phase, because is useless. And then, ZERO HERO SAYS LETS GO PUA WAY ANYWAY. JESUS FVCKIN CHRIST!!!

You speak the truth. This part of your post is excellent.

Look, here's what I'll do. This month, I'll sift through posts in DJ Bible, Don Juan Gold Tip Album and Sosuave Hall Of Fame. I'll organize them into nice sections, edit them a little bit (because some look like they were written by a 10 year old - but the info is gold) and compile a book out of them. I already did some pre-work, it will be around 700-800 (!) pages.

Then I'm done looking for more information because I DON'T NEED MORE THEORY. That will be my reference guide so that when I stumble upon an obstacle, when I feel down or unmotivated etc., I'll read relevant posts and get back on track. Everything I need theorywise will be there.

When I say everything I don't mean a tactic for every single situation, but I don't need a tactic for every single situation. I just need RIGHT MINDSET AND OVERALL STRATEGY. Besides, you can't prepare in advance for every possible thing that can come up.

It pisses me off when I come to this site, and as soon as I see titles of threads I KNOW posters didn't read the Bible, otherwise they wouldn't ask those questions. Goddamn quick fix mentality.

Think about it guys - 800 pages. YOU DON'T THINK IT'S MORE THAN ENOUGH? And I know I could probably shrink it to half of that size, because there are the same points over and over, but I think it's OK to read the same points many times so they really sink... Plus people have different styles and points of view and I think it's good to look at the same thing from different perspectives.

You don't need that much theory, man. 800 pages? That's approaching being an encyclopedia! Do you really want to absorb an entire encyclopedia's worth of theory? Especially if that encyclopedia is filled with contradictions and opposing trains of thought! You'll just make things unnecessarily hard on yourself.

Take your own advice and just LET GO OF THE THEORY!!! Theory in a book is no different than theory on a website. Besides, you said yourself that you just need the right mindset and overall strategy. I agree with that, but 800 pages of theory is NOT the right way to do it. Remember, all of the theory on this site was written by people with different lives, different mindsets, different styles, different EVERYTHING. There's no way to combine all that theory into some "Super DJ Bible" and make it work, simply because there will be too many disagreements, too many confusions.

Spare yourself the time and energy needed to write that thing, man. Use that time instead to do what you advocated in the first half of your post: go get some real world experience! That way, you won't need to read up on and adopt the mindset and styles of others; you'll discover one on your own, one that comes works well for you and also comes naturally.

 

[cyp6]

You need both. Both sides.

Don't be that guy who just focuses on one thing and gets bitter. People like Bvbidd think that self-improvement is lame, but he just focused on one side and assumed things from his own personal failure.

And he's a fool for that.

Because you need more than just self-improvement and self-affirmation. You need the rest of the package.

Don't be bitter over your own failures and assume it applies to everything.

Don't be like Bvbidd.

He was a fool for saying self-improvement is lame. But he wasn't looking at both sides. And his own failures with women prompted him to believe that.

Don't be that bitter fool.

You need both sides.

One side focuses on your self-improvement.

The other side focuses on your ability to speak.

You need both.

yes!!!!!!!!!! I practiced pau's before i beacame more dj status.... as a pau i had alot of sucess geting numbers and sh1t but no actual success with women.. but because i got a lot of numbers and rejections too i became more adapt to approch and slowly switch to becoming a dj... INNER GAME IS WHERE THE TRUE HAPPYNESS IS DIREIVED.

 

[Call_Me_Daddy]

YOU DON'T NEED EITHER.


What you fellas need is to grab your balls and just BE MEN. You don't need tactics to pick up women. You don't need "DJ" either.

What you need to do is just act like a fvcking man. Be like your childhood heroes if you fellas ever had some.

Did they use DJ or PUA?

Hell no. Thef didn't need any of that. They already had it in them.

Men have been fvcking women since Adam and Eve. That's how you came to exist today. They didn't use PUA or DJ.

Adam was not a PUA OR a DJ. He was a man. And so was his son and so was his son's son.... what ever happened to that? What ever happened to being a REAL man? Like the Billions BEFORE you?


Go to the gym. Play some Rugby or Football or something or chop down a tree or something and be like a man.

Do manly things. DJ is for pvssies and PUA is for dweebs. Real men already have everything they need. (mental stuff.)

Real men have sex. And real men GET REAL WOMEN. (Spread the word.)




Find a real man in your neighbourhood/town and ask him to be your mentor. He'll give you better instruction than a bunch of text on a page. Don't you think?

 

[JesterX]

^^^ One word Balls you got that and your set but these so called Balls grow larger and larger as you gain more experience. Start with small Balls and keep em' growing don't ever miss out on a chance for experience.

 

[Brutus]

You don't need that much theory, man. 800 pages? That's approaching being an encyclopedia! Do you really want to absorb an entire encyclopedia's worth of theory? Especially if that encyclopedia is filled with contradictions and opposing trains of thought! You'll just make things unnecessarily hard on yourself.

Take your own advice and just LET GO OF THE THEORY!!! Theory in a book is no different than theory on a website. Besides, you said yourself that you just need the right mindset and overall strategy. I agree with that, but 800 pages of theory is NOT the right way to do it. Remember, all of the theory on this site was written by people with different lives, different mindsets, different styles, different EVERYTHING. There's no way to combine all that theory into some "Super DJ Bible" and make it work, simply because there will be too many disagreements, too many confusions.

Spare yourself the time and energy needed to write that thing, man. Use that time instead to do what you advocated in the first half of your post: go get some real world experience! That way, you won't need to read up on and adopt the mindset and styles of others; you'll discover one on your own, one that comes works well for you and also comes naturally.

You're right... Thanks to this site, I pin-pointed my problems - basically it's lack of confidence, attachment to the outcome, taking things too seriously (these three are actually interconnected, they all come down to FEAR) and lack of excitement/sexuality.

I don't need a collection of 20 articles for each of these things. I just need 3-4 for each. I still have to skim through Bible again to find the relevant ones though... Oh, I'm hopeless :crackup:

 

[Sean O]

Well, you clearly have the desire to overcome your problems, and that's the most important thing of all. Take it at whatever pace you feel comfortable with. Start with a couple of articles for each of the things you mentioned, and as the important material in those articles becomes second nature to you, you can let go of them, one by one, until you're completely self-sufficient. And if you ever feel yourself tempted to dive into more theory, just remember what you posted before:

First of all, there's no such thing as "self-improvement trap". The essence of self-improvement is not about reading stuff, it's about doing stuff in the real world. Reading on and on and on is "paralysis of analysis trap", and this is the trap that Jayer guy is actually in. I know this trap very well, I'm not completely out of it yet.

The trap consists of belief that you have to learn everything in theory before you start applying in the real world. The idea is that this way you'll minimize mistakes and thus, failures. So, behind paralysis of analysis is fear of failure, simple as that. It was said 10000 times here: you don't get over your fear by avoidance or procrastination, you get over it by consistently confronting it.

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. NO PHILOSOPHER, INTELLECTUAL, SCIENTIST OR ANY OTHER GENIUS IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND HAVEN'T FIND THE OTHER WAY, BUT THESE GUYS THINK THEY WILL.

THEY STILL WANT TO PULL THIS STUFF RISK-FREE.
THEY STILL HAVEN'T PUT ASIDE THEIR EGO.
THEY STILL AVOID PAIN.
THEY STILL THINK THEY WILL DIE OF EMBARRASEMENT IF TINY GIRL LAUGHS TO THEIR FACE AND CALL THEM LOSER.
THEY STILL FEAR FAILURE ALTHOUGH IT WAS SAID MILLION TIMES THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS FAILURE.

THEY STILL WANT THEIR MOM DO IT FOR THEM.

You know what? This is a slap in the face to all those fine men in the DJ Bible who took their time and made an effort to post here TO HELP US. THEY FIGURED IT OUT, GAVE US A DETAILED MAP TO GOLDEN TREASURE BUT WE'RE STILL LOOKING FOR BETTER WAY.

IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!!! AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!

OK, got little pissed there (at myself too). Look, I was reading Book Of Pook lately. This is the guy who figured it out. I know here are some people who bash him and say that he's talking crap, he didn't post field reports so he can't be the real deal. But you know what? His posts - they're written the way they can't be fake (unless you're David Blane or whatshisname). You don't figure out all that sh!t by seating on your a$$ and reading books.

And he told us, forget lines, tecniques and go natural. I believe he was telling this so that we wouldn't waste time with PUA stuff. So that we would skip a phase, because is useless. And then, ZERO HERO SAYS LETS GO PUA WAY ANYWAY. JESUS FVCKIN CHRIST!!!

Those words of wisdom came out of YOU, bro. That's proof enough that you have it in you to succeed, and that's why I have no doubt that you'll come out on top in the end.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Adam was not a PUA OR a DJ. He was a man.

You're right. He wasn't a PUA nor a DJ. He was the very first AFC. He had a perfect life until he listened to Eve and fvcked up his whole world. Given he was the first Noob too but for his first fvck-up it was a big one.

Men don't go through life changing directions by reacting to their experiences aimlessly like a ball in a pinball machine. The successful ones are sailors reading the seas and the direction of the wind. The make the necessary adjustments and not only make progress sailing into the elements, they use those very elements to their advantage; deliberately, purposely and authentically.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

The trap consists of belief that you have to learn everything in theory before you start applying in the real world. The idea is that this way you'll minimize mistakes and thus, failures. So, behind paralysis of analysis is fear of failure, simple as that. It was said 10000 times here: you don't get over your fear by avoidance or procrastination, you get over it by consistently confronting it...

Good point. They attempt to use the information as a stop by stop roadmap of for every woman and every experience they could possibly encounter instead of understanding the premise behind the information and making it work for them based on their personality and the situation they are in. But like you said, it would mean that they would need to get out and perfect their craft themselves instead of hoping that another guy's experiences will protect them from their own unsuccessful outcomes.