Is it worth taking martial arts, if you dont learn the whole system?

[ScrewIt]

Anyway there's this martial arts center near my campus, i really do want to learn it.

I just got back from there after asking the instructor some questions.

I asked him how long it takes to learn the whole system of eagle claw kung fu. He said average 10-20 years. I was in shock yes, but i was expecting that kind of answer.

So the class sessions are 3x a week = $140 a month.
I told him my situation and that with my schedule i can only make it 1x a week. he said the best he could do is probably do 50% off = $70/month.

So anyway i would like to learn the whole system. But i doubt that's ever gonna happen, becaue of time investment and money in the future.

I know for a fact my bro's taken Aikido briefly during his college years, and he knows a good amount for self-defense. And can kick my arse any time.

Question: Is it worth taking up martial arts if you dont learn the whole system? For those of you who has taken it up before and havent learn the whole system, was it worthwhile?

 

[CrizzleGA]

something is always better than nothing... not that complicated.

 

[WORKEROUTER]

You got it all wrong buddy.

Stay away from the "Eagle Claw" school. What a joke. First off, there's no confined, set, "system" when it comes to fighting.

You either learn to fight, or you don't. You can ALWAYS grow and improve as a fighter. I suggest spending all that money on one of the following:

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Kali/Escrima
Muay Thai Kickboxing
Greco-Roman Wrestling
Judo

In general stay away from Kung Fu schools. There's plenty of vids on the web displaying "masters" getting their asses seriously beat by other practioners.

 

[Jay-X]

Originally posted by WORKEROUTER
You got it all wrong buddy.

Stay away from the "Eagle Claw" school. What a joke. First off, there's no confined, set, "system" when it comes to fighting.

You either learn to fight, or you don't. You can ALWAYS grow and improve as a fighter. I suggest spending all that money on one of the following:

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Kali/Escrima
Muay Thai Kickboxing
Greco-Roman Wrestling
Judo

In general stay away from Kung Fu schools. There's plenty of vids on the web displaying "masters" getting their asses seriously beat by other practioners.

really good advice worker
in my opinion, the ones that are more useful in the real world are:

1. brazilian jiu-jitsu
2. muay thai
3. shoot-boxing
4. K1-style kickboxing
5. boxe
6. greco-roman wrestling

 

[Chillisauce]

Just to repeat what the others have said: Kung Fu is the sucks!

I take Kyokushin Karate (the only decent karate, rest are dancing classes) and boxing.

I also did BJJ for a year or so but found it pretty useless. My advice is take up Muay Thai or boxing, will give you a solid, realistic view of what it feels like to be punched in the face.

 

[ScrewIt]

Apparently you guys have never heard of Eagle Claw kung fu!
it focuses on locks, pressure points, choking, cutting off blood flow and even your air too...which are differnet forms of grappling. There are also several death techniques (not that im interested in killing anyone, but it can get lethal too)

Yes i know what your'e gonna say, BJJ is similar in every aspect of eagle claw and that most fights that dont end in 15 mins end up on the ground...true perhaps.

Oh and BTW, that vidoe of gracie vs that kung fu guy...well it had certain circumstances. Cuz usually in tournaments, the fighters are never allowed to use anything that's close to a lethal move.
If it was a different circumstance the kung fu guy may have won.

Anyway the way i see it, BJJ has a flaw, as do all martial arts. BJJ is great for 1v1. But lets say you're faced with multiple oponents, the guy that knows other martial arts, judo, karate, kungfu, muay thai, aikido...etc would probably fare off better tahn the BJJ who can only really handle 1 person at a time.

IMO, Bjj is way overrated, as was karate.

i quote Clint Eastwood:
"Most martial artists don't know how to fight and that is the only reason that a lot of fights turn into wrestling matches. The Gracies and Muchados both admit to this fact. They both say they are scared of running into a fighter who truly knows how to fight. Why? Because they know they will end up unconscious or dead before they grab such a fighter. But, they're not too scared because they know most contact fighters don't have a clue about how to really fight."

from this thread: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30114&highlight=eagle+claw

 

[WORKEROUTER]

Originally posted by ScrewIt
Apparently you guys have never heard of Eagle Claw kung fu!
it focuses on locks, pressure points, choking, cutting off blood flow and even your air too...which are differnet forms of grappling. There are also several death techniques (not that im interested in killing anyone, but it can get lethal too)

Yes i know what your'e gonna say, BJJ is similar in every aspect of eagle claw and that most fights that dont end in 15 mins end up on the ground...true perhaps.

Oh and BTW, that vidoe of gracie vs that kung fu guy...well it had certain circumstances. Cuz usually in tournaments, the fighters are never allowed to use anything that's close to a lethal move.
If it was a different circumstance the kung fu guy may have won.

Anyway the way i see it, BJJ has a flaw, as do all martial arts. BJJ is great for 1v1. But lets say you're faced with multiple oponents, the guy that knows other martial arts, judo, karate, kungfu, muay thai, aikido...etc would probably fare off better tahn the BJJ who can only really handle 1 person at a time.

IMO, Bjj is way overrated, as was karate.

i quote Clint Eastwood:
"Most martial artists don't know how to fight and that is the only reason that a lot of fights turn into wrestling matches. The Gracies and Muchados both admit to this fact. They both say they are scared of running into a fighter who truly knows how to fight. Why? Because they know they will end up unconscious or dead before they grab such a fighter. But, they're not too scared because they know most contact fighters don't have a clue about how to really fight."

from this thread: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30114&highlight=eagle+claw

Your ignorant, man, but at least your being true.

First off, Eagle Claw is Bullsh(t. All the "joint locks" and pressure point moves and worst of all, the "death strikes" are complete bullsh)t.

BJJ is overrated? Okay, I tell you what, why don't you go and step inside a BJJ school in your area and ask to spar or roll. Once you evade getting your ass choked out, come back and enlighten us.

Oh and about the video. That kung fu guy would have never won. Are you saying that in the street, he would have been able to use his secret "death strikes" which would have instantly killed the guy? Ya, that's what they tell you. Too bad you never see those same guys in the UFC or pride rings. I guess they're all just too f*cking dangerous!!

And you quote Clint Eastwood? This guy has a lot of f*cking false balls to say that.

Let's go back to the old days of UFC, when the Gracies were dominating, taking down top level strikers. Are you telling me that these opponents didn't know how to fight? Maybe Clint needs to say this to one of those guys' faces and see how long he lasts.

Now listen. I'm not saying that kung fu is totally bad. No, it can be really cool. It can definately LOOK cool. But all I'm saying is this. If you try to pull a flying dragon kick or the deadly "dum-mak" on a BJJ or muay thai fighter, you're going to end up hurt. I had a friend who studied a little kung fu and was eager to show me his new pressure locks. Long story short, he ended up being taken down and submitted pretty quickly

Oh ya, and about the multiple opponent thing. If you REALLY think that you're going to be able to take down several opponents, you're dead wrong, and you've seen too many Van-Damme/Norris/Lee/Chan movies. It doesn't matter if you're a thai figther, a wrestler, or a boxer. In fact, these guys have admitted this. MAYBE being talented in escrima/kali and having the weapons with you would help, but in general, you're just better off not in this kind of situation.

 

[The Cooler King]

Originally posted by ScrewIt
Apparently you guys have never heard of Eagle Claw kung fu!
it focuses on locks, pressure points, choking, cutting off blood flow and even your air too...which are differnet forms of grappling. There are also several death techniques (not that im interested in killing anyone, but it can get lethal too)

Yes i know what your'e gonna say, BJJ is similar in every aspect of eagle claw and that most fights that dont end in 15 mins end up on the ground...true perhaps.

Oh and BTW, that vidoe of gracie vs that kung fu guy...well it had certain circumstances. Cuz usually in tournaments, the fighters are never allowed to use anything that's close to a lethal move.
If it was a different circumstance the kung fu guy may have won.

Anyway the way i see it, BJJ has a flaw, as do all martial arts. BJJ is great for 1v1. But lets say you're faced with multiple oponents, the guy that knows other martial arts, judo, karate, kungfu, muay thai, aikido...etc would probably fare off better tahn the BJJ who can only really handle 1 person at a time.

IMO, Bjj is way overrated, as was karate.

i quote Clint Eastwood:
"Most martial artists don't know how to fight and that is the only reason that a lot of fights turn into wrestling matches. The Gracies and Muchados both admit to this fact. They both say they are scared of running into a fighter who truly knows how to fight. Why? Because they know they will end up unconscious or dead before they grab such a fighter. But, they're not too scared because they know most contact fighters don't have a clue about how to really fight."

from this thread: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30114&highlight=eagle+claw

Thanks man.

I have friends that take Eagle claw.

One of them sparred in a tourny which was all arts allowed.
Yet it was mostly Karate from Canada.

His first fight lasted 4 seconds (I counted).
The guy did a flying jump kick or whatever and right when he came down his front leg was a perfect target. So my friend kicked him there and a second later he couldn't walk.

Yes, gung fu is best with more than one fighter.

 

[ScrewIt]

Now listen. I'm not saying that kung fu is totally bad. No, it can be really cool. It can definately LOOK cool. But all I'm saying is this. If you try to pull a flying dragon kick or the deadly "dum-mak" on a BJJ or muay thai fighter, you're going to end up hurt. I had a friend who studied a little kung fu and was eager to show me his new pressure locks. Long story short, he ended up being taken down and submitted pretty quickly

bullsh!t!. Just cuz you know a little BJJ, you're going to put down every other martial arts? You're going to base the power of BJJ on a guy who just learned a little kung fu? First off even if you know a little basics of bjj, it's easy to tackle down anyone and win. i know cuz my friend knows the basics and then some.

And second of all, learning martial arts is about discipline and mastering the forms. If you dont have both of those, then you shouldnt even be bother with martial arts in the first place.

And again, your post obviously proves Clint Eastwood's post correct. Besides to fully Master an Art takes average probably 10 years, so dont argue how crappy any other martial arts are until you do the research.

My final statement: all martial arts has good points and flaws, there is no perfect one martial arts, so a hybrid is the best bet.

 

[bullmoose]

Most fights are over in less than five seconds; you usually don't have time to even hit a stance before the fur starts flying.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but if you really want to learn how to defend yourself, go to the head bouncer at the roughest joint in your town. Offer him $50 to spend his night off teaching you 2-3 moves -- no more -- that will put a guy away every time. Explain that you don't want to be a badass; you just want to be able to get out of harm's way. Chances are good he'll show you some savage $#!+ that will waste any martial-arts practicioner in an actual fight -- unless the martial artist in question resorts to the same stuff himself.

Case in point: I once was scrapping with a guy who knew either BJJ or one of the more esoteric grappling arts. As he was crawling around me, moving from hold to hold and jockeying for "just the right position" to put me away (which he would've done in another few seconds or so) , I managed to get my hand down the front of his jeans and yanked his nuts up to his nipples. Who do you think walked away from that one?

 

[bullmoose]

And for the record, I agree with Chilisauce. A few boxing classes will do wonders for your self-confidence. Ever see a boxer walking around? Head up, shoulders back, hands relaxed, afraid of nothing. Why? Because he's been hit in the face and he can handle it. Chicks are able to see that kind of confidence a mile away.

 

[Jay-X]

Originally posted by bullmoose
Chances are good he'll show you some savage $#!+ that will waste any martial-arts practicioner in an actual fight -- unless the martial artist in question resorts to the same stuff himself.

are you saying that if i ask a bouncer to show me 2-3 moves, after JUST ONE NIGHT i'll be able to bring to the ground somebody who has been in muay thai or brazilian jiu-jitsu for the last, say, 3 years? if you introduce me to this kind of bouncer, i will pay 500$, not only 50$, plus something extra for you, man...

 

[C00L]

bouncers are usually like 300lbs

 

[bullmoose]

Paying attention to details will also save your @$$ in a fight.

I said the head bouncer.

The $10/hr grunt bouncers are big; they're usually not the well-trained ones. The head bouncer is usually smaller, and wilier, and the guy who goes in to handle things when the 300-pounders can't keep it under control.

 

[bullmoose]

Originally posted by Jay-X
are you saying that if i ask a bouncer to show me 2-3 moves, after JUST ONE NIGHT i'll be able to bring to the ground somebody who has been in muay thai or brazilian jiu-jitsu for the last, say, 3 years?

Yes and no.

I'm talking about fighting, now; not a ring match. With those aforementioned 2-3 moves, you wouldn't be able to take a jiu-jitsu or muay thai fighter in the ring, or even if (s)he gets a chance to square off on you and drop into a stance. But in an actual fight in a bar or on the street -- where things happen faster than you can imagine; I'm not kidding: five seconds is typical for a scrap and ten seconds is a LONG fight -- you'd be far better off a lot sooner with a handful of crippling dirty tricks than you'd be if you started learning a martial arts sport tomorrow.

All the flying jump kicks in the world won't do you any good when someone sucker-punches you and proceeds to stomp your nuts through your @sshole.

Your odds of being attacked by a guy who has had several years' training in martial arts is slim to none. Most people who've devoted themselves to a martial art to that degree don't go around picking fights. The person you need to defend yourself against is the sucker-puncher, the drunken bully, the skilled streetfighter / professional hoodlum, and the idiot who's had a couple years (or months) of muay thai or boxing classes and wants to "show off his $#!+." Those guys, yes, you can learn to take down in an evening.

EDIT: The reason for learning only two or three moves is so that you can practice them until they become automatic. If you have to think about them when you need them, you'll be dead before they can do you any good.

 

[Jay-X]

Originally posted by bullmoose
Yes and no.

I'm talking about fighting, now; not a ring match. With those aforementioned 2-3 moves, you wouldn't be able to take a jiu-jitsu or muay thai fighter in the ring, or even if (s)he gets a chance to square off on you and drop into a stance. But in an actual fight in a bar or on the street -- where things happen faster than you can imagine; I'm not kidding: five seconds is typical for a scrap and ten seconds is a LONG fight -- you'd be far better off a lot sooner with a handful of crippling dirty tricks than you'd be if you started learning a martial arts sport tomorrow.

All the flying jump kicks in the world won't do you any good when someone sucker-punches you and proceeds to stomp your nuts through your @sshole.

Your odds of being attacked by a guy who has had several years' training in martial arts is slim to none. Most people who've devoted themselves to a martial art to that degree don't go around picking fights. The person you need to defend yourself against is the sucker-puncher, the drunken bully, the skilled streetfighter / professional hoodlum, and the idiot who's had a couple years (or months) of muay thai or boxing classes and wants to "show off his $#!+." Those guys, yes, you can learn to take down in an evening.

man, i know some guys who have been in muay thai for 2 years and you can be sure that nobody whose only training has been with a bouncer for a night, will be bringing them down. if you're talking about karate, kung fu and even judo, i can give you credit. but muay thai and brazilian jiu-jitsu don't have fancy techinques or stuff. you simply get to KO or to submission another guy.

it's like putting in a street fight someone who's been boxing for 2 years and someone who has been taught to defend himself over JUST ONE NIGHT... do you really think the latter will win?

 

[bullmoose]

True, but I think he'd be better off than if he takes up Crouching Monkey Gong-Fu or whatever. Or if, in the original poster's case, he can only make one class per week. If he's not going to apply himself, it could take years for him to get skilled enough to count on his training, if ever.

In your examples, you're talking about guys who've studied a martial art for years -- martial arts that teach, by your admission, simple ways to KO or force submission. Self-defense is not complicated. It's not that hard to clobber a guy into submission or throw him through a wall. You can learn how to do it in an evening and practice it for a couple of months and have some confidence that you're no longer a walking target. Are you a martial artist at that point? No. Are you a badass? Not remotely.

I'm not dissing on martial arts, and I'm not going to postulate that there isn't a street-practical martial art out there.

The original poster's issue was that he couldn't make all the classes, and he wanted to learn how to defend himself anyway. He wants a quick and easy way; I'm offering him one.

Of course, quick and easy paths lead to The Dark Side. . . .

 

[diplomatic_lies]

Man you guys are like kids argueing which Power Ranger is cooler.

Wanna know how to win ANY fight? Strap eough explosives to your body to level a city block. Who's gonna challenge you then, huh?

 

[manuva]

Originally posted by diplomatic_lies
Man you guys are like kids argueing which Power Ranger is cooler.

Wanna know how to win ANY fight? Strap eough explosives to your body to level a city block. Who's gonna challenge you then, huh?

How constructive.

Bullmoose knows his drills.

In a real fight - and JayX you still don't seem to understand what a real fight involves - there is no time to adopt styles and techniques. You either inflict maximum pain in minimum time, or you receive maximum pain in minimum time.

Yes, there are some aggressive martial arts out there. Whoopee. There seems to be a general consensus on this board that Muay Thai and BJJ will make you invincible. Newsflash, it won't.

Most of the guys here seem to base their arguments on "their friend who did 2 years of Muay Thai and bashed some guy who did some other fight style". Great. In that specific set of circumstances, some guy was able to utilise one style to better effect than another. Hooray. That doesn't mean it applies across the board.

I've been bashed, and I've done some bashing. It's all good. What I'm saying - and what bullmoose is saying - is that streetfights don't follow rules, and so learning to fight to a specific set of rules and formulas is not going to save your arse. Yeah, Muay Thai is pretty good once you get into stance and face your opponent. What if he comes from behind? What if there's more than one? What if your opponent comes at you with pure, unadulterated aggression that you've never previously encountered? What if?

For fast answers, and fast stopping power, consulting the head bouncer is a great idea. With 2 or 3 brutal moves in your trick bag, and pure raw aggression, you stand a very good chance of dropping guys who insist on trying to fight in the style they've 'learnt'.

I'm sure submission holds are great. I've never tried one. Either the situation demands you break his arms, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, why are you fighting? I'm sure your muay thai defence is fantastic, but I bet it'll fall to pieces after I've bitten your nose off and mashed your eyeball to pulp with my thumb.

That is the reality of streetfighting. And believe me, bullmoose knows his streetfighting drills. The soldier in him stands out a mile away, and you can tell he speaks from experience. You wanna know anything about fighting JayX, bullmoose here is the guy to ask. And if he decides to speak, shut up and listen. Don't piss him off with "yeah but my friend blah blah blah". Just shut up and listen. Because you're talking to someone who knows.

And Jayx, your friends who've done whatever art for 2 years aren't invincible. Yes they can be brought down. Because they've done some basic training in technique doesn't mean they've learnt speed, aggression or surprise. I served with some guys who considered those three attributes their lifeline to survival, and they are often the difference between surviving and succumbing. If things went nasty in a club or similar social setting, I guarantee I could tear your friends trachea (throat) or pop some ribs before they could assume an effective fight stance. And no, its not hard to learn.

Listen to bullmoose, he's a seasoned digger who knows his drills.

 

[manuva]

Opps, double.