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joekerr31

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SmoothTalker said:
That's a HELL of a lot smaller than the half million you're expecting. Add to that 28 years of inflation, and you barely come out ahead. Sorry man, that's not how people become rich, or how the rich become richer (unless you consider people that have managed to save up 1 million by the time they retire (including 600,000 in home equity) rich.
nowadays owning your home and having 1 million in the bank is rich. if you can afford not to work and still live an upper middle class existence you are rich.

now geography matters. in california you probably need to own your home nad have 2 million in the bank or something.

but in terms of making 10 million, 99% of folks won't do it from the stock market. you need to have a business or a good job etc.

which is why i said #1 thing is to get a good education.
 

SmoothTalker

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You have some valid points. My main concern was that the returns you for 7% were overstated, which really added up and I felt changed the picture. And I still maintain that when you consider such a long time horizon, like 30 years, the picture will be a lot less rosy once you factor in inflation.


It's definitely true that short term trading expenses can add up quickly and eat up any profits you earn. If you only have $1000, short term trading is probably a waste of money. Discount brokers can help though.

As for what inflation figures leave out? Well I don't have anything specific, but do you honestly think it reflects reality? Consider these Canadian figures:

Apparently over the last year food prices have gone up 1.1%.. Well I don't buy too much food, but I know the price of the same bread I've been buying for years jumped from $1.64 to $2.02, that's more like 20%. Other products are creeping up to, maybe not 20% a year, but definitely more than 1%.

Clothing and footwear have gotten -0.6% cheaper? Where is this? I use to buy boxer shorts for 2 for $12 at this store. Now they're 1 for $15. And yeah there's some dirt cheap shoes, but the only ones I could find that actually fit somewhat comfortably are now all over $100.

Recreation, education and reading up only 1.5%? Well granted book prices have stayed pretty constant ( though they should have dropped about 30% with the rise of the Canadian dollar, but my tuition has increased almost by$1000 a term in a year. That's about a 20% increase.

Transportation up only 3.5%? Well.. gas is expensive as hell up here (>$4 a gallon). Bus tickets have gone up 15% last year and going to go up another 15% next year. I haven't noticed any significant drop in the price of cars.

Seriously makes me wonder where they pull these numbers out of.

I think some of this can be attributed to the Walmart effect. With the growth of foreign sweatshop crap flooding our stores, yeah you can find products cheap. But if you get those, you get what you pay for, and you'll make up for the low price by buying replacements when it breaks/rips. If you get some quality, it'll cost you.

Inflation figures just don't add up.
 

iqqi

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I think this is a great thread so far, and I like the differences in opinions, it means us readers actually have to THINK. Keep it up!

Thanks Joekerr, I am glad you contributed, I hope you keep checking in and guiding us in the right direction. besides, I am curious as to what you have to say to the inflation thing brought up.
 

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joekerr31 said:
oh and by the way, no one ever talks about the cost of trading stocks.

lets say you buy a thousand bucks of a stock. typically it will cost you about 30 bucks to buy and sell the stock.

haha, that $30 does not include spread, slippage in fast markets, illiquidity costs, and bad fills that most people get from on-line brokers due to paid-for order flow arrangements. Those are what erode the profits of the frequent trader. People obsess over commission, but tend to be clueless about fills. They really think that $5 Ameritrade order only costs five bucks. It's not that simple. Investors say that fills don't matter, because they are in for the "long term," but it is still money. Over the course of many trades, it adds up.

For anyone doing more than a trade or two a month, it would help them to understand the mechanics of placing orders on ECNs, how to not get raped on fills and spreads, and to learn exactly what happens to your order after you hit the buy and sell buttons.
 

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cool thread, I never knew about fills before. so what stocks have you guys been holding long term?
 

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TooColdUlrick

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Danger said:
Joekerr31 is absolutely right on the CPI.

You have several things going on here,



One is the substitution effect, where as the price of one good goes up, people buy a cheaper alternative good instead.

The result? The Government changes the basket of goods to reflect the new cheaper good as opposed to the now more expensive good. So inflation is now not quite so high and you have a lower standard of living.



Another item is the Hedonistic measurement, where a new pc isn't really the same product as an old pc, as you have more memory, better processor, bigger drive, newer DVD drive, etc,....

The result? The government "indexes" the cost of this item, declaring that you got a better item at the same price as the originaly inferior item, artificially lowering the inflation number.

If you ever really want to know what the true inflation rate is or should be, check out M2 or M3 growth rates (M3 isn't calculated anymore however some parties are deriving the number through methods I'm not familiar with). That's a better indication of what inflation is or will be.
he's absolutely wrong. so are you actually.

could you elaborate on how looking at the supply of money alone will tell you anything about inflation...the quantity theory of money notwithstanding. i need to update my models. thanks.

i think the monetary base and M1 might be a little better, however, as a metric for inflation. and...i dunno...perhaps a metric for the DEMAND for money as well.

few economists look at CPI these days because you cannot adjust for prices based on quality differences, perceived or real. we look at PPI and Core. at the producer level, steel, lumber, corn, oil, etc. there are little differences in quality that can account for prices changes, as opposed to the consumer level, which also has advertising capitalized into prices (when is the last time you saw an advertisement for wheat?).

Core subtracts food and energy from PPI because of seasonal factors, which are not permanent structural changes. some including myself subtract out tabacco products because the price increases from it are mainly due to taxes.

does anyone even know who calculates CPI? it's the Bureau of Labor Statistics. they track over 25,000 goods and services in 100 metro areas (which covers 80% of the population). and yes, this includes food, energy, and housing. they collect data from over 50,000 landlords, including mega multi-residential landlords. it's comprehensive data, folks. backed up independently by at least 100 major institutions.

knee surgeries and heart surgeries are better on a cost adjusted basis. plasmas and LCD's, phones, electronics, computers, etc. you can get a 25% better flat panel today for the same price you could get last year. that's a 25% real price REDUCTION. health care is going up on the whole, so is university education, so is fuel.

add the online shopping factor into the mix. it's almost impossible for the government to deal with all of the killer deals you can get online, with coupon codes, sales, etc. this is chopping inflation off at the knees. i just bought a 50' plasma for $1,600 including no tax and white glove delivery. last year, it would have cost $3,000. that's about a 50% price reduction, because it's the exact same tv i was looking at last year.

on the whole, most economists put CPI at 2 percentage points ABOVE what the actual real inflation rate is. my personal professional opinion is that we've been at 0 inflation for the last decade (at the consumer level). when you ***** and moan about high gas prices, also remember how f'in cheap (and good quality) the furniture is that you buy from China.

there is also tremendous political pressure to OVERSTATE the CPI because seniors want their cost of living increases (and they vote). that's fine, because they have a disproportionate amount of expense due to health care, which is rising in cost for them in particular. i say do away with SS, but that's another story.

you also have to factor into the mix, productivity (labor and capital). if business resource costs (producer level, PPI) rise by 3%, but at the same time they become 3% more productive, they do not have to raise their prices (at the consumer level, CPI) to maintain their margins. this is what's been happening over the last decade. producer prices rising at about a 3% clip, but business productivity washing it out due to price competition. expect more of the same for the next decade.

people internalize and project onto the world their personal experience. you might think prices are rising for YOU, but that doesn't mean that they are for the economy as a whole. and i say "think" because they may not be rising at all for YOU. it just might be that you are actually spending more on the whole, buying various stuff, and at the end of the month, the ends don't meet. your conclusion is that things are expensive, when in fact you are living beyond your means.

it's amazing but true...the President's and Congress's approval rating, going back to Kennedy, is directly inversely proportional to the PRICE OF GAS. gas prices go up, and the approval rating goes down. gas prices go down, and the approval rating goes up. so Joe Schmuck is at the pump with his gas guzzling suv, watching it drain his bank account, and at the same time saying I HATE BUSH...I HATE BUSH...this economy sucks. his brother loses his job and now we are in an economic disaster.

then Hillary comes along and says if she is elected President, she will personally see to it that gas prices will fall under HER administration.

---

on the diversification issue; you can be about 75% diversified by owning just one stock. that stock would be General Electric. they don't just sell light bulbs in the US. add two more diversified multinational conglomerates and you will be asymtotically diversified. what your returns will be is anyone's guess. but for the sake of diversification itself, that will do it.

to answer the OPs question. dump 40% in SPX and 40% in QQQQ and forget about it. you are fully diversified, with a beta of a little greater than 1, and no overhead or trading costs per se.

use the remaining 20% to play around with. focus on no more than FIVE stocks. not 10, not 20. that is silly. to find 20 good stocks that you think are trading at a discount, or will be excellent long term plays, you will have to evaluate at least 100. good luck bro, you might as well throw darts. (which isn't a half-bad strategy as a matter of fact).

read A Random Walk Down Wall Street. that will put you in the right frame of mind on what investing is and is not.

never take a stock tip from your Uncle Jim. never take the advice of an analyst. never....EVER....take the advice of a stock broker, unless you think used car salesmen know a lot about cars.

never take financial advice from anyone on sosuave.

the best companies in the fastest growing industries as a long term play. go from there.
 
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TooColdUlrick

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Danger said:
It is a simple matter of logic. There is a supply and demand for goods and services, there is also a supply and demand for "money". As the supply of anything increases, the supply curve will shift to the right lowering the price of the good. This includes "money".

Of course, one has to take into account the velocity of money, however the supply is a good indicator.

All you need to do is look around, if you really think the CPI is running under 3% then you aren't paying attention.

As for just picking GE as a good indicator, that may be true for specific periods of time, however if you understand cycles you can do much better. As a General rule during down cycles such as now you will be much better invested in Commodities and "things" as opposed to manufacturers and such.

Such cycles tend to run ~20 years in length. The latest cycle started in 2000-2001, the very time that commodities were considered a horrible place to invest, and gold investors were laughed at.....hell, they still are, but look at the returns they have so far since 2000, and you won't be laughing.
i have a phd in economics bro. i pay attention to more than you can possibly imagine. but with your simple logic, you are assuming that the demand curve of yours remains static. it doesn't--not for goods and services, and not for money.

the "simple" logic is that inflation is created when the supply of money grows at a faster rate than the demand for money. you also must define what "money" actually is. the definition of money is changing due to technology. is the $100 gift card you got for xmas money? is your reloadable Visa card money? credits and coupons from online? debit cards? how do you deal with paypal? and a whole lot more.

these new forms of 'money' are denominated in local currency (US dollars) and they are nearly as liquid as currency.

the reason why the Fed did away with M3 is not because of a vast Last Man Standing conspiracy, it's because M3 is obsolete.

you must be a Ron Paul fan.

All you need to do is look around, if you really think the CPI is running under 3% then you aren't paying attention.
you are proving one of my points. just "looking around" doesn't mean jack squat about the economy's overall price level. you are taking your own personal obvservations (which are likely to be very wrong even within your own small world), and projecting them onto the economy as a whole, and making sweeping conclusions that you cannot substantiate.

just because YOU cannot afford things, doesn't mean there's inflation. just because YOU think there's high inflation doesn't mean it's true.

now, if you can come up with some solid numbers as to why CPI UNDERSTATES inflation, rather than OVERSTATES it, i am all ears.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpiovrvw.htm#item3

As a means for adjusting income payments. Over 2 million workers are covered by collective bargaining agreements which tie wages to the CPI. The index affects the income of almost 80 million people as a result of statutory action: 47.8 million Social Security beneficiaries, about 4.1 million military and Federal Civil Service retirees and survivors, and about 22.4 million food stamp recipients. Changes in the CPI also affect the cost of lunches for the 26.7 million children who eat lunch at school. Some private firms and individuals use the CPI to keep rents, royalties, alimony payments and child support payments in line with changing prices. Since 1985, the CPI has been used to adjust the Federal income tax structure to prevent inflation-induced increases in taxes.

in light of THAT, do you honestly think the government has a DOWNWARD bias on inflation? if the government started reporting ACTUAL inflation properly (e.g. zero or negative), these people would be rioting in the streets because they're not getting their "cost of living" adjustments even though there's zero inflation. in other words, they want their money. can you imagine these people getting a 2% LOWER payment?

as good of a job as BLS does, the fact is the CPI figures will stay at about 2-3% annual rate forever, regardless of what the actual inflation rate is.

this in large part is why economists don't use it. CPI is designed to make senior citizens, welfare recipients, veterans (which should get more), happy.

technology (amazon, ebay, buy.com, etc), everything online is driving consumer prices DOWN. how easy is it to search on Froogle and find the lowest price? BLS can't keep track of this stuff, and hence CPI is overstated for this reason alone (in addition to the other reasons).

you completely missed my point on GE. i was talking about diversification, not returns, nor cycles.
 

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So TooCold, where do you beleive is the best investment currently? Obviously not property, you think in American shares or abroad?

If internationally, which index do you think is the best? (as far as stability and solid long-run returns).
 

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Not trying to be disrespectful, but there is so much jargon in this post I don't know where to start.

Tell me a time in history when a war is being fought and there is no inflation.

Remember that inflation can also take years for the full effects to set in.

But before I get into anything... TooColdUlrick, are you arguing that the US economy is doing well? That's the first impression I got, but after rereading your stuff it seems like you're just focusing on a small part of the economy. I don't want to jump to conclusions. Can you clarify?
 

Peace and Quiet

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Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

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I love how people get into all these metrics to try and prove obvious common sense points. Inflation happens every year and that's that.

It boils down to Corporations running the economy.

People expect raises every year. In order to compensate those raises Corporations have to raise prices on their items for their consumers. Thus things go up.

K I S S
 

TooColdUlrick

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Danger said:
Ok Buddy, you don't need to validate yourself to me. I don't care what degree you have or where it's from. There is no need for your flavor of condescension.

I only have two things for you....

1) I did point out the ways that CPI isn't a true measure of inflation.
2) The old definition of inflation can be found here http://www.inflationdata.com/Inflation/Articles/Definitions.asp. You seem to be focused on the new definition. Stick with the Austrian school, you will be all the better for it.
1. no you didn't.
2. please enlighten us on what the "new" definition of inflation is, and why the Austrian School's viewpoint is new rather than "old".

here is the definition of inflation... old, new, borrowed, and blue:

the loss of purchasing power due to an increase in the general price level.

so please, tell us all what the new definition is.

nevermind :moon:
 

TooColdUlrick

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Jayer said:
I love how people get into all these metrics to try and prove obvious common sense points. Inflation happens every year and that's that.

It boils down to Corporations running the economy.

People expect raises every year. In order to compensate those raises Corporations have to raise prices on their items for their consumers. Thus things go up.

K I S S
wrong. consumers run the economy.

if corporations can increase their productivity, they do not have to raise prices to maintain their margins. the more productive businesses (and thus the economy) become, the more DOWNWARD pressure there is on consumer prices, and they can still raise wages. add to it that fact that technology is enabling businesses to become more productive AND consumers can bargain shop for the best prices with little search costs, you have DOWNWARD pressure on consumer prices.

for 20 years US productivity was averaging 1%. since the late 1990s, we're pulling about 4%. is it a coincidence that this productivity boom has coincided with a technology boom, along with low and stable inflation? nope.

explain to us how Walmart, Target, Sears, Office Max, Circuit City, General Motors, Amazon, Buy.com, Sony, Dell, furniture manufacturers, clothing manufacturers, etc, can raise their prices without losing market share. a good deal of the consulting i do is regarding how companies can REDUCE their prices!

why do you think CompUSA went bankrupt? they tried to be price competitive, but simply could not maintain their margins with productivity gains, and thus their balance sheet evaporated. Circuit City? same thing.

how much does music cost? its free, unless you're an iTunes slave who actually pays for music.
movie rentals? 14.99 per mo, nearly unlimited rentals. Blockbuster is raising its prices. it's not going to fly, so watch them disappear within two years.

it is becoming increasingly difficult for the government to track "prices" at the consumer level, given that retailing is rotating ever more into an online environment with greater competition and lower prices. in other words, this fact is becoming less and less evident in the CPI figures, and thus CPI over estimates what the actual inflation rate is.

you cannot un-ring the technology bell. the world is entering a disinflation (not deflationary) environment, driven by technology, driven by productivity, driven by price competition at the retail level. even if commodities (inputs) rise in price, you will see the competition erase it at the consumer level.

--

tell japan about how inflation happens every year and "that's that". they've been deflationary for a decade. they've been desperately trying to INFLATE the economy, but to no avail.
 
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TooColdUlrick

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wutangfinancial said:
Uh, a plasma screen TV is a discretionary good, facing an elastic demand curve.

Fuel, housing, food-these all face inelastic demand. Oil, food, and housing have all accelerated at far greater than 3%, but they're not part of core CPI because they're "too volatile"-uh, no crap!

For the rich, with lots of disposable income, times are good, because their inelastic purchases are only a small % of their consumption. For the lower middle class and poor, times suck.

Economists all to often fit their analysis to match some esoteric model that only exists as an academic construct, in the process giving up any relevance to the real world.
there is no such thing as "Core CPI", you have no clue what you're talking about. there is CPI, PPI, and Core. PPI is PRODUCER PRICES (commodities). Core is PPI less food and energy. it has nothing to do with CPI and you have made sweeping conclusions based upon that misinformation.

CPI includes fuel, housing and food my friend, and as about as comprehensively has it comes. yes, those items have risen, i never said they didn't. but many, many other items are falling in price.

if the marjority of your income is spent on fuel, housing and food, then you are screwed, because your personal situation shows rising prices. you are not screwed because of inflation, you are screwed because you don't have a decent job, and thus spend a disproportionate amount of your income on things that are rising, and thus can't make ends meet. most likely your real wages are falling because you don't have the skills to keep up, and command a higher wage.

you are blaming "inflation" when you should be blaming yourself. welcome to the real reason why 90% of all people, in every country, throughout history, live their lives paycheck to paycheck.

Economists all to often fit their analysis to match some esoteric model that only exists as an academic construct, in the process giving up any relevance to the real world.
i would say that you have done exactly that.
 

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TooColdUlrick said:
there is no such thing as "Core CPI", you have no clue what you're talking about. there is CPI, PPI, and Core. PPI is PRODUCER PRICES (commodities). Core is PPI less food and energy. it has nothing to do with CPI and you have made sweeping conclusions based upon that misinformation.
It has nothing to do with the CPI?! Where are you getting this information?

http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/core_inflation.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_inflation
http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/inflation/us-inflation/cpi.cfm
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/coreinflation.asp

Core inflation is most often calculated by taking the Consumer Price Index and excluding certain items from the index, usually energy and food products. Other methods of calculations include the outliers method, which removes the products that have had the largest price changes.
Everywhere says pretty much the same thing. Google 'Core CPI' and you will find the term is used in many legitimate websites.
 

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

Celadus

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Sign up at Everbank for an account and keep an eye on the Iceland Krona exchange rate. When it comes a little more favorable in its range, get a 12% Icelandic CD. Maybe when it hits 61.50 or 62.00.They only offer 3 month terms right now but its better than what you can get in the US. Looks like rates might keep being lowered.

http://www.everbank.com/001WorldCurrencyCD.aspx

In the meantime start reading some books if you want to learn the market.

Don't buy into all that Warren Buffet BS. His followers are sheep, looking for an idol. He made the bulk of his returns when information was very asymmetric. His main edge was getting company to send him paper prospecii (S/P?) and annual reports and actually reading them (About 30 a day). Something most people did not do in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Now anyone can log onto yahoo and read the same stuff for free in summarized form. Now he makes money because he has a ton of cash and companies bend over for him.

ETFs are a good option if you want to invest, but don't want to put in the time. The main thing to remember is, you don't make a lot of money doing what everyone is doing.
 

TooColdUlrick

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Falcon said:
It has nothing to do with the CPI?! Where are you getting this information?

http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/core_inflation.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_inflation
http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/inflation/us-inflation/cpi.cfm
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/coreinflation.asp



Everywhere says pretty much the same thing. Google 'Core CPI' and you will find the term is used in many legitimate websites.
i get my information from the the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the entity that actually calculates and reports it and makes it available for download...

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm

now read through it as they talk extensively about food, energy, and fuel that is contained in CPI.

then browse on over here...

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm

and you will see that productivity is outpacing CPI by a very nice clip.

back to the original poster...i couldn't care less what other web sites say about economics any more than i care what Motley Fool has to say about investing, and less still about what an analyst says about a particular stock.
 

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TooColdUlrick, explain this to me.

How are these technology costs calculated? You mentioned how plasma tvs are much cheaper now for the same size. Okay.

What about computers? Last years model is worth less than half it's original price now. From the official inflationary viewpoint, does that mean that computers are now half as expensive?

If it does, that's bull****, because last years computer isn't going to cut it soon.. I mean even if all you do is surf the web and check your email, pretty soon all PC's will only come with Vista, and an old computer simply won't run it. Then really computers aren't any cheaper, as you pretty much HAVE to get a new (equally or more expensive) computer.
 

SmoothTalker

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Also, how do you explain the great quality of life in the 50's and 60's? Sure we have a few more modern conveniences eating up our paychecks now, but you must admit, it'd be pretty hard for a single income family today to live like they did back then.
 

Gaucho

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Gaucho said:
So TooCold, where do you beleive is the best investment currently? Obviously not property, you think in American shares or abroad?

If internationally, which index do you think is the best? (as far as stability and solid long-run returns).
You dont invest, just in funds or something TooCold?

Also, I would stop argueing with these kids. Your wasting your time.

Obviously, most only know the very basics of economics.
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

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