Internet Dating

[bukowski_merit]

You can probably send pure gibberish to 40 women and find two that will bang you

I don't really deal in "probably". If you want to try it out - try it out. I deal with what works for me. You could "probably" get a decent response rate by sending out gibberish first messages; mostly "what?" but you'll still have to have actual conversation eventually. Your words do mean something.

Also note: I'm screening women as I talk to them. I'm mostly screening out boring women that want to have twitter conversations. I'm looking for investment on their part; and openness. If i do not get this - I move on to the next one. Not doing this could increase your %; but i don't want a boring woman in my bed.

i dont see anything particularly novel or effective about this approach.

If what we're talking about is getting laid - it's effective. It's more effective for me than going on dates. It's also more fun (for me).

I agree, It's not really novel. It's old school 1999 yahoo chat room style. And that's where I first used it with effectiveness. Back then, you just a/s/l a woman who was in a local chat room, exchanged a few pics, sparked up a dirty conversation, and then met up and banged. To this day - I do essentially the same thing with just more experience and knowledge backing my words. My main goal is to establish sexual rapport and transition that to a meet up asap.

I agree that going to your house or out to eat doesnt make much of a difference, attraction is attraction.

Yup. And for the most part - the woman who will bang me at my place would also come home with me and bang me if I went on a date with her. The ones who come over and exit without a bang, would have been just the same on a date. All I'm doing is cutting a corner.

The impossibility of an LTR with "modern woman" is bs though,

At this point - this isn't relevant to this conversation. If you want to make an argument that dating women from online is fine - make it.

 

[bukowski_merit]

It is direct and most chicks don't go for it--but there's no formula that guarantees 100% success anyway. The reality is, a few chicks will LOVE being asked out directly. Others will despise it. I have no control over their reactions. But I CAN control how hard I'm willing to work to get a few responses. And that's all that matters to me.

What you can take from this.

Is me and Espi have VERY different online game. But we do our thing and don't much worry about the women who don't "bite". We focus on the ones who do.

As he says: that's all that matters.

 

[Mirage]

I told myself I wouldn’t start debating concepts because I think it’s necessary here.

To say that Online Dating is a numbers game is to say that dating is all about statistics. This, to me, is axiomatic from the get go. I mean, the success or failure of a determined action always depends on stats. That’s true not only for dating but for just about anything.

This where the notion of choice comes into play. We choose certain actions over others because we consider that the outcome is more likely to be what we want by doing this or that certain things. Everyone would agree with that.
Basically, the idea is that the more you try, the more you are likely to succeed.

Now that this is out of the way, does that mean that we should just randomly try things and cross our finger that we’ll be lucky?

Not in my opinion. Certain approaches are more likely to succeed than others when it comes to Online Dating. Again, this is my opinion.

Everyone will have different approaches tinted with their personalities and their conception of the world and their own respective cultures. Again, that’s a given.

This, however, doesn’t exclude that certain attitudes, wordings and so on are generally more potent than others. Sure, the way those attitudes are conveyed will vary from individual to individual but the essence, the core of those actions will remain more or less similar.

If you don’t agree with the above statement, that’s cool. I’m cool with that. The goal of the thread, however, is not to convince others but to share our own respective approaches which can then be adapted on a case-by-case basis.

This is why I created the thread in the first place and my objective in doing so. I agree with some things and disagree with others but can already see how I can adapt certain ideas to my own “style” so to speak (I don’t like saying “style”, it sounds lame but you know what I mean).

This girl, for one thing, has pictures of dogs in her profile. She also mentions how much she loves animals and how they’re like, her kids. Now, I like dogs too, I really do.

I’d be tempted to agree with the previous approach which mentioned that we should avoid saying something like: “Hey, I like dogs too” (that would be bukowski_merit's approach (can I use bm or something shorter for your nickname?).

@Espi: would you focus on this, like: ''I think it's really great that you like dogs as I like dogs too.'' Sounds silly writing this but dogs really do matter a lot to that woman apparently.

 

[Mirage]

Oh, I’m sure they all do.

Here’s the thing. I live in the north of Canada. The girls on the dating website (yes, there’s really a single, decent one) trickle by. And by trickle I mean that 60% of them are not my type, let’s put it this way.

So when there’s a new one that’s sort of decent, I want to make sure I’m not going to mess up by being too forward or whatnot.

She mentions how much she loves animals and that the guy she dates should like animals too. Otherwise I probably wouldn’t have mentioned anything about it but it seems very important to her.

EDIT: Forget it, she’s already deleted her profile. ****. Will have to react faster next time. Ah goddammit.

The other one is 100km away, don’t really think it’s worth bothering.

Will have to be faster on the trigger next time for sure.

EDIT2: Nah, she's still there. I messed up my search function.

Basically she says:
I want someone who isn't allergic to animals 'cause I got two dogs. I don't want someone with kids. I'm close to my family, I'm a quiet person. I'm curious. I'm looking for someone with a good situation. During the winter I snow-shoe and walk.

That's the gist of it.

I was thinking of something like:

"I'm not allergic to dogs and I'm also not allergic to girls who want to buy me a drink."
I think it's funny and light.

Don't know about the rest... maybe comment her appearance... unsure.

 

[jurry]

Jesus haha time to pack up and relocate man.

 

[Mirage]

I'd rather not, just bought my own place and all.

I tried the following :
“I’m not allergic to dogs or to women who want to buy me a drink.
I like that cowgirl outfit. Pretty.

I have a job, my own place and I’m physically active. I’ll write up the rest of my biography next time.

(my name)''

No reply. Maybe it was too short. I don’t know.
I’ve been thinking and I honestly believe that brute forcing messages like this is not the best option. I’m thinking an invitation to chat might actually end up being more effective. There has to be a better way.

 

[jurry]

Id maybe have left out the second part about having a job etc. you dont want to sound like youre selling yourself to her. The bigger issue is that online dating like any other dating is a numbers game. I take a quick look at their profile, make some reference to it and ask her to meet for a drink by third message or so.. Sometimes first message whatever feels natural i guess. So with you being from a smaller area and not a lot of people, maybe you do have to spend more time with each person but that seems like a royal pain in the ass from my experience. I might send out 10 messages and get nothing back. Then you might send out 10 more and get 5 answers.. Impossible to know whats goin on with other person or if they even read it so dont take no response personally.

 

[Mirage]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I appreciate it, as usual. Really nice to talk about other dudes about this.

So with you being from a smaller area and not a lot of people, maybe you do have to spend more time with each person but that seems like a royal pain in the ass from my experience. So with you being from a smaller area and not a lot of people, maybe you do have to spend more time with each person but that seems like a royal pain in the ass from my experience.

It is.

Id maybe have left out the second part about having a job etc. you dont want to sound like youre selling yourself to her.

When I wrote the message, I was thinking that the more I display my… say… successes the more that would make me a good “candidate” so to speak. I guess maybe it can be interpreted as being needy however. Not sure.
She said she was looking for someone who had a situation (difficult to translate that term in English) so I thought it would be a good idea to reassure her that I wasn’t homeless and jobless. It seemed like the logical choice to me.

I’m not saying I was “right” in doing so mind you but I made sense to me.
Ok, well, I’ll skip “selling” myself next time. See what happens. Can’t hurt to try.

You are enough. You don't need humor or jokes or ****y and funny or negs or whatever. Don't even try to entertain them at this point. Instead, make them open you up and see what's beneath. Make her curious about you by appearing average. CONFIDENT yes--but average. Keep the written profile ordinary. No need to stand out. Your photos will do most of the talking.

Well, I have to say you have a very different approach than what I’ve read so far. It’s interesting to read. I am enough, the trouble is getting the idea across to the person that I am enough (if that makes sense). Are you saying that you dismiss humor, jokes etc… in general or only during the initial contact phase.

I’m puzzled about the appearing average thing. It’s new to me. I’ll think about that.

And I'm not trying to flame you, but emailing her an invite to buy you a drink is not something I would even joke about.

Hmm… I disagree about this (and I know you’re not trying to flame me, don’t worry). I’m not very serious in person and I want a girl who can take a joke and won’t take things to seriously. I think it’s was pretty mundane as far as comments go and nothing to freak about. I mean, I'd rather miss a sexual encounter than having to be dismiss this side of me. Just my 2 cents.

Stop complicating things and dare to just be normal--just be "you." I know that might sound like a cliché but just try it. Don't focus on being someone "special." You are enough.

Well, being me is exactly what saying that joke is all about. I feel like toning down things too hard and being average I wouldn’t be “me”.

 

[jurry]

It is definitely very helpful to have guys you can talk to about this, big disadvantage for men that it is considered weak or gay (ironically enough) to bring up women or dating strategy to your friends, at least it is where i come from.

I like Espi's approach and with the uncertainty and flakiness of online dating, short and sweet is the way to go. I think he is on to something too because many times ive asked girls out on first message and more attractive girls seem to favor that, no one wants to waste time with the back and forth getting to know you that is going to happen on the date anyways. So keep it simple, conserve your energy, dont invest a whole conversation trying to get them to meet you. Once you're on the date that is of course different, and i think that was addressed earlier in the thread..

 

[bukowski_merit]

The biggest problem is that you seem to be investing too much in one woman's response.

That's going to lead you to quick discouragment.

If your area is lacking many women you'd bang - you might want to try a different website (OKC & Tinder are the next 2 best free sites imo.) If your area is still lacking - you might want to give up on online dating as an outlet. I'm blessed to be within 100 miles of DC, Baltimore and Phildelphia; there's also tons of universities around here. So I'm never short on prospects.


Bottom line though: You're going to have to email mass women to get any kind of feel for what will work for you. One woman not being attracted enough to respond is not data. Find 30-40 women on there and bomb away.

If you still get little to no response: Work on your pictures.

 

[Mirage]

I understand you better now, Espi.

Tell you what, I’ll give it a shot. Never tried it before. See what happens.

It is definitely very helpful to have guys you can talk to about this, big disadvantage for men that it is considered weak or gay (ironically enough) to bring up women or dating strategy to your friends, at least it is where i come from.

My best friend settled for some very unattractive girl not to be alone. He’s never been good with women so there’s really nothing to discuss here. Also, he would likely frown upon that I am sexually “nomadic”. He wouldn’t understand.

Besides that, I sometimes converse with women but they say absolute bull**** about dating so I don’t even bother. From my experience, anyway. And I don’t
want women friends really.

Find 30-40 women on there and bomb away.

I’ve never gone without any response after that many messages. Usually I’d get a reply every 5 messages or so I would say.

If you’re fit, do you share a picture of that or not? What’s your take on it?

Is it worth it? I read an article that it was a big "no-no" but it was written by a woman so I discarded her opinion right away.

 

[AttackFormation]

I find it really amusing that women have a tendency to portray themselves as "above" looks and here we are discussing the supreme importance of a good shirtless photo just so women respond at all. I personally see my online dating profiles as being for amusement by now, all I have is pictures of my face mimicking girl poses. It's just to validate to myself that you really shouldn't care about what girls try to tell you and they're just as "shallow" as men. The difference is that their narcissistic, solipsistic attitudes won't let them admit flaws like that.

 

[bukowski_merit]

I find it really amusing that women have a tendency to portray themselves as "above" looks and here we are discussing the supreme importance of a good shirtless photo just so women respond at all. I personally see my online dating profiles as being for amusement by now, all I have is pictures of my face mimicking girl poses. It's just to validate to myself that you really shouldn't care about what girls try to tell you and they're just as "shallow" as men. The difference is that their narcissistic, solipsistic attitudes won't let them admit flaws like that.

The good news is: you can take 2 girls with very similar looks and one might find you attractive and the next won't. Focus on the one who finds you attractive and forget the other.

The good news is: you can still do other forms of game; such as social circle game where looks are not nearly as important.

The bad news: for dating websites - you're pretty much right. This is way more looks based dating than any other form of pickup which is why good pics are essential.

This is mainly, because of the variety of possible choices - the woman is able to be more selective. For lack of a better way to describe is - if a 6 normally gets hit on by other 6 guys but goes online and has 8's hitting on her - she's no longer going to give the time of day to a 6 guy online (but probably still will in real life.)


It's all just a matter of finding girls who will play on your playground.

 

[AttackFormation]

This is mainly, because of the variety of possible choices - the woman is able to be more selective. For lack of a better way to describe is - if a 6 normally gets hit on by other 6 guys but goes online and has 8's hitting on her - she's no longer going to give the time of day to a 6 guy online (but probably still will in real life.)

Funny how women conflate being f*cked with being committed to. Just because the guy who's a better catch than them is willing to release some sexual tension with them and the 2 other girls he's rotating doesn't mean he actually wants them, but oh well... girls don't seem to understand that. I swear just swallowing some alpha's cvm is damaging to the mind of a woman.

 

[Formerlyrossitheking]

It is direct and most chicks don't go for it--but there's no formula that guarantees 100% success anyway. The reality is, a few chicks will LOVE being asked out directly. Others will despise it. I have no control over (or regard for) their reactions. But I CAN control how hard I'm willing to work to get a few responses. And that's all that matters to me.

I've been spamming chicks via online dating for years now and I'm past the point of "success rates." I've tried them all: quirky openers, C & F e-conversations, slow approaches, fancy first date dinners, etc. etc. These days I just focus on what I want--like you, I just want to be efficient and get to the dam point and not waste my time texting and emailing them back and forth.

No pretense. No "negs." No bullshiat.

"Do you want to meet me--yes or no?" That's all.

I do find that inviting them out on the first email seems to attract the hottest ones (i.e. "8"s).

BTW you wrote in your original post of a 10% success rate--that's not bad IMO. Keep on approaching and before you know it you'll have built a portfolio of chicks. I amazed myself recently. I store all of my "favorites" on match.com--I have about 150 profiles that I keep on file--it's kind of like a scrapbook as well as a way for me to organize my targets. These "favorites" comprise all kinds of women in various stages of contact--everything from non-responses to outright lays. As I was looking at one particular column of those photos, I noticed that I had layed all 4 women in that column! LOL But I also noticed it took months for that to happen. It didn't happen overnight.

It takes TIME and WORK. A lot of guys seem to think that it should be effortless. Everybody wants to know the "secret" or "magical opening line" with a "guaranteed high success rate." There are none! There are also no guarantees in life. Most of us just have to be willing to put ourselves out there.

A few posters on this thread have basically said it all: IT'S A NUMBERS GAME.

 

[bukowski_merit]

Funny how women conflate being f*cked with being committed to. Just because the guy who's a better catch than them is willing to release some sexual tension with them and the 2 other girls he's rotating doesn't mean he actually wants them, but oh well... girls don't seem to understand that. I swear just swallowing some alpha's cvm is damaging to the mind of a woman.

I don't disagree with any of that except for your idea that good looking automatically = alpha (or that they're automatically a better catch). That is far from the case.

I don't focus much on what i can't change though.

 

[Mirage]

Hmm… yeah, I would honestly feel pretty awkward asking someone to take a picture of me. I get your point though. It seems less vain to post ****less “by accident” than purposely stand in front of the mirror. I might go for a mirror shot first though, simply because I’d feel embarrassed to ask someone I know to take a shot of myself running or whatever. Seems like a good compromise for now.

About the phone number, what formulation do you use? Yes, details, I know. But still, I’d rather leave as little as possible to luck.

-Can I have your phone number?
I don’t know, seems like it opens the door for rejection.

-I’d like your phone number so we can arrange a date.
Too forward?

I know some of have mentioned so far that the phone number should be asked for. How about this though:

-Here’s my phone number. Text me and we can arrange to meet for a drink.

To me, that seems like the best option. It’s direct while not coming out too strong. It also refers to texting which can be less uncomfortable than talking directly with someone she doesn’t know.

Honestly, it might be a cultural thing, maybe women in America generally prefer men who are forward but I am under the impression that the women around my area are different. I mean, they’re more like scared little animal.

One sudden move and then dash away for miles on end.

I’ve often gotten the question: “Do you only want to meet for sex?” It’s obvious to me that there’s only one good answer to this question if you are to get laid. What’s the best way to handle this LMR to a meeting? I’ve had this happen not too long ago with a 21 y.o. and she stood me up. Never told me she wasn’t coming, she had me wait for ages, not answering her phone, etc… It’s weird ‘cause she could have decided not to meet and told me and I would’ve been cool with it. She had just gotten out of an abusive situation with her ex-boyfriend so I guess she thought I was going to slug her across the face or something, I don’t know. Go figure.

Some of you have mentioned that I was trying to “sell” myself too much. What kind of stuff do you write on your profile? Logically, I would think that your profile description is to sell yourself for lack of a better term. What’s your take on it?

Also (loads of questions, I know, haha), what’s the best way to bypass the excuse: “I can’t meet up with you, I barely know you/I don’t know you”.

Another thing I’d like to discuss, what’s your take about 2nd rounds? I mean, trying to contact a girl for a second time despite her absence of replies the first time? I’ve managed to pull it off once and it ended up in some really awesome sex so I think it’s worth a shot. It worked once though, so this is like a 1% thing. One girl flew off the handle, saying man couldn’t take no for an answer and so on.

@jurry:
What kind of comments do you make about their profile? Praise? General observation? Humor?

Could you guys share some sample messages? I’d like to read how you actually go about this, would find it insightful.

 

[jurry]

The "i cant meet up with you/we barely know each other" line is an instant next. This has happened to me SO many times and NOT ONCE has continuing the conversation ever ended up in a date. Of course we dont know each other b*tch thats the point of the date (might be a good response actually). As hard as it may be, got to let these ones go.. Probably just looking for validation/unsure if they want to do online dating/ who cares.

I would re-read some of the earlier posts, you are attempting to inject way too much logic and rationality into something that should be more spontaneous and aloof. Dont invest so much thought into each message just check the profile, refer to something that made you laugh or a picture you liked for example, fire out a message, move on to the next.

Once you have a couple message back and forth or even the first if thats what felt right, say hey i wana meet up with you on sunday are you free? Once they agree cool leave me your number and ill call u when i get there or text before to confirm if its more than a few days out. Thats it, done, next. Now you start workin on a friday girl, and a saturday girl

 

[bukowski_merit]

since others have helped you with the other questions...

Hmm… yeah, I would honestly feel pretty awkward asking someone to take a picture of me. I get your point though. It seems less vain to post ****less “by accident” than purposely stand in front of the mirror. I might go for a mirror shot first though, simply because I’d feel embarrassed to ask someone I know to take a shot of myself running or whatever. Seems like a good compromise for now.

I'm the same way. I don't want professional pics, and i don't want to ask a friend to take pics of me. So I use an android app called "tina-time lapse" to take my pictures. But you can pretty much use any time lapse app.

What they do is take pictures every "fill in the blank" number of seconds and take as many pictures as you tell it to.

So maybe I'll set it to take 30 pictures; with 5 second gaps inbetween. I'll set the camera somewhere then let it take pics. You can do all different settings; wearing different outfits, etc.

I do this about every season. End up with 200 or so pics; go through them, dwindle them down to 10 or so; then put them on some pic rating sites.

Then i'll photoshop edit the 1-2 that i decide are good enough for my page (just subtle edits i learned in school; nothing big)

This process has me with only quality pics on my page, and i'd even say my pics might be better looking than i am in person (but not by so much that women will think they're being catfished).

 

[Mirage]

The "i cant meet up with you/we barely know each other" line is an instant next. This has happened to me SO many times and NOT ONCE has continuing the conversation ever ended up in a date. Of course we dont know each other b*tch thats the point of the date (might be a good response actually). As hard as it may be, got to let these ones go.. Probably just looking for validation/unsure if they want to do online dating/ who cares.

I laughed. Yeah, it’s sort of the point. I have to say I haven’t gotten much luck with the “We barely know each other” line. Maybe someone has a way to salvage this.

I use no "formulation." I never ask for the number. I like to test them to see if they'll offer it--and many times, if they accept my invite, they'll offer the number without my ever even asking for it. Years ago I read that Mystery advocates never directly asking for a woman's phone number, and I happen to agree with him. If they don't offer it, and I have doubts, or if a few days has went by since I invited her, then I'll email them the day before to make sure we're still on. I personally enjoy testing their interest in me, and it's MUCH more rewarding when they offer it without my even asking for it. There have even been some women I've met whose name I didn't even know until after I met her in person. I'm in a position to feel confident enough that they'll always show. My game has improved vastly over the years, so it's been a LONG time since a chick has flaked on me and failed to show.

Ah ok, why not. I had not thought about this approach.

I don't like it. I personally think a man should NEVER offer his number. And, in my experience, a woman will rarely initiate a text or call. And why should she? YOU are the man, so YOU initiate. SHE follows. This is how you control the frame and lead her.

I’ve had the opposite experience . I’ve let my # and the women then texted me. I think you might be underestimating this approach. You might want to consider it, just saying.

If they ask that, I ignore them and move on. That question is disrespectful and if you answer it, you'll NEVER win. I refuse to jump through her fvcking hoops. She's not significant enough to ask me ANYTHING yet. YOU control the frame ALWAYS. Do NOT placate her with an answer because you'll jump through her hoop and therefore LOSE control of the frame. Move on. If you ignore such bullshiat questions, occasionally they'll respond back and agree to meet you, and you will have made her respect you.

Interesting input. I think there might be a way to handle this without simply dismissing her however. How about simply replying: “Are you?” and then change the topic? I think that might possibly work. I agree with you about the jumping through hoops thing.

I rarely ever bother with chicks who don't respond to my initial text. Maybe once or twice more if she's really hot.

How did it pan out?

@bukowski_merit:
Didn’t know about that app. Will download right away. Good idea about 'toshop too.

I have to agree with this. So many questions. Nothing wrong if you're asking because you're planning on implementing the strategies we're conveying. But I've been on this site for a LONG time and have seen guys come on here asking the same questions because they're still in denial or have doubts.

Hope it works for whatever he decides, but I personally think he has doubts and is going to end up doing it his way. Just try to keep an open mind. Texting back and forth will earn you some great penpals. Asking them out and refusing to settle for a penpal will get you laid. Hard lesson to learn for most of us. I wasted a lot of time texting and emailing women.

Awwww come on now. You’re underestimating me . I was actually a member here way back in the days and I’m actually very open to advice and new ideas (more than most actually). You know, just because I disagree with you on some things doesn’t mean I’m not taking anything, quite the opposite! Have faith brother!