Inner game? Can you really change?

[MrJibbles]

In order to get good at outer game, you need inner game. This is obvious; most people on this forum would probably agree with me on this. What does inner game depend on? One thing: self-esteem. Nathaniel Branden, author of The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem, says self-esteem consists of two qualities: self-respect and self-efficacy.

Self-efficacy is the belief that you can accomplish what you want in life, that you have the resources to satisfy your needs and goals. I believe that this can change over one's life. If you suck at something, you try and try again until you get better. Then you become competent. Competence breeds confidence in a particular skill, which ultimately manifests itself as self-efficacy if these skills are genuinely important to you.

Self-respect, however, is much more static in life. Being good at something does not necessarily mean you will respect yourself. I spent most of my junior high and high school years doing two things: studying my ass off and practicing musical instruments. For three years in a row I got the highest average in my class, won piano recitals, and formed my own band headlining school coffee houses, which got me and my friends invited to parties with the popular kids.

Although these accomplishments gave me self-efficacy, they did nothing for my self-respect. I was still shy, introverted, self-hating, socially-awkward, and a complete failure with girls. Although I had formed an identity for myself as a musician and diligent student and therefore developed aspects of inner game, my self-respect remained low.

You can sit around all day in front of your mirror repeating positive affirmations and listening to hypnosis tapes, but these are all useless.

Is self-respect static? Or does self-respect depend entirely on self-efficacy? Also, is self-esteem genetic? I look at my dad and realize my self-esteem is the same as his. He is a successful doctor and bases his entire identity on this. When I asked him what he plans to do when he retires, he cantankerously told me "become an alcoholic." The stifled, emotionally-blunted relationship between him and my mom reinforces this notion for me.

At the most basic level, can self-esteem really change? A bunch of accomplishments can make you feel good about yourself temporarily, but will they affect how you genuinely value yourself at the core? In other words, is an authentic, pure inner game (pure self-esteem) possible at all?

 

[Rubato]

Although these accomplishments gave me self-efficacy, they did nothing for my self-respect. I was still shy, introverted, self-hating, socially-awkward, and a complete failure with girls. Although I had formed an identity for myself as a musician and diligent student and therefore developed aspects of inner game, my self-respect remained low.

You can sit around all day in front of your mirror repeating positive affirmations and listening to hypnosis tapes, but these are all useless.

One of the few pieces of good advice I got from my counselor was a concept she called ABC - Affect, Behavior, and Cognition. She said they form a triangle and while you can't do much to change A or C (and I don't want to start a discussion about this), what you can do is change your behavior.

If you have self esteem problems, it's probably because you've established behavioral patterns that are somehow reinforcing this in your affectual and cognitive patterns. Said another way, if you want different results, you're going to have to do something different.

This is why affirmations, hypnosis tapes, ect will not generate the results you want.

If you are lacking in self respect, ask yourself why you are. You already gave me some pretty big hints. You said you are "shy, introverted, self-hating, socially-awkward, and a complete failure with girls."

Now, there was probably a time when you did not have the knowledge necessary to get good grades. To get the knowledge, you had to study. There was also probably a time when you did not have the ability to play an instrument well. To get get that ability, you had to practice the instrument.

I would first ask myself why you are arbitrarily determining that in order to respect yourself you have to not be

-Shy
-Introverted
-Socially Awkward
-A Complete Failure with Girls

Now, being self-hating is pretty obvious... I would say that's almost synonymous with not having any self respect. So we'll exclude that.

Your biggest issue is that you feel like you suck with women. That's probably the only reason (or the biggest reason) you care about feeling socially awkward, introverted, and shy. They are also probably the reasons why you are not more successful with women.

So back to what I said originally, what do you do if you want different results?

Do something different!

Start at the beginning. Find ways to make yourself less shy/introverted... They are essentially the same thing.

Now this is the kicker... doing this will require you to make a big step outside of your comfort zone, and this is the biggest reason why most people never really "change". Start off easy, just like you would in the gym. Go to the mall and walk by 5 people a day and smile at them. When you are comfortable doing that, practice asking 5 different strangers a question, like what time it is or what the weather will be tomorrow... something very simple. Then move towards small talk... keep escalating.

This is a magic formula that will cure all three of the issues you think are keeping you from being successful with women

This is your social equivalent to practicing playing an instrument or studying for a test. "Getting good" at academics and music was obviously not easy. Don't expect this to be either. But don't also expect it to be something you can't get good at. All you have to do is be willing to put yourself out there.

Another brilliant point I've heard on these forums... if you want to radically increase your success... double your rate of failure.

 

[Deicide]

One of the few pieces of good advice I got from my counselor was a concept she called ABC - Affect, Behavior, and Cognition. She said they form a triangle and while you can't do much to change A or C (and I don't want to start a discussion about this), what you can do is change your behavior.

If you have self esteem problems, it's probably because you've established behavioral patterns that are somehow reinforcing this in your affectual and cognitive patterns. Said another way, if you want different results, you're going to have to do something different.

This is why affirmations, hypnosis tapes, ect will not generate the results you want.

If you are lacking in self respect, ask yourself why you are. You already gave me some pretty big hints. You said you are "shy, introverted, self-hating, socially-awkward, and a complete failure with girls."

Now, there was probably a time when you did not have the knowledge necessary to get good grades. To get the knowledge, you had to study. There was also probably a time when you did not have the ability to play an instrument well. To get get that ability, you had to practice the instrument.

I would first ask myself why you are arbitrarily determining that in order to respect yourself you have to not be

-Shy
-Introverted
-Socially Awkward
-A Complete Failure with Girls

Now, being self-hating is pretty obvious... I would say that's almost synonymous with not having any self respect. So we'll exclude that.

Your biggest issue is that you feel like you suck with women. That's probably the only reason (or the biggest reason) you care about feeling socially awkward, introverted, and shy. They are also probably the reasons why you are not more successful with women.

So back to what I said originally, what do you do if you want different results?

Do something different!

Start at the beginning. Find ways to make yourself less shy/introverted... They are essentially the same thing.

Now this is the kicker... doing this will require you to make a big step outside of your comfort zone, and this is the biggest reason why most people never really "change". Start off easy, just like you would in the gym. Go to the mall and walk by 5 people a day and smile at them. When you are comfortable doing that, practice asking 5 different strangers a question, like what time it is or what the weather will be tomorrow... something very simple. Then move towards small talk... keep escalating.

This is a magic formula that will cure all three of the issues you think are keeping you from being successful with women

This is your social equivalent to practicing playing an instrument or studying for a test. "Getting good" at academics and music was obviously not easy. Don't expect this to be either. But don't also expect it to be something you can't get good at. All you have to do is be willing to put yourself out there.

Another brilliant point I've heard on these forums... if you want to radically increase your success... double your rate of failure.

Excellent analysis! The OP already seems to have hobbies going for him that would fill up his time. As long as a person has hobbies and activities to do that have nothing to do with picking up women, they should be set. That should keep their mind away from the obsessive thought pattern toward success with women.

I think sarging too much and having results that are negative and/or miniscule in success can be damaging to the psyche. I've been there, and you think if you get success with a certain degree of women you will be set. The problem with that concept is that usually in that situation, the person hasn't built themself up strong enough from within to do that sort of thing without negativity creeping up.

In Conclusion: Build a meaningful life outside of pick-up and don't become obsessed with it. Do your basics and go outside the comfort zone, but don't do pick-up oriented things all the time. If the person finds pick-up having a detrimental effect on their life, they should take a break from it until they're mentally ready to pursue it 100 %. There's no need to go out in public being nervous and looking around feeling like you have to approach everytime you're out. But at the same time, if you see that special woman that does something to you, go for it and don't care what happens. That interaction will not define you. It can only enhance you.

 

[lolwut]

go out tomorrow and ask a girl out.

just do it, and watch your self respect grow because you grew balls and took a step toward the right direction.

her answer is irrelevent.

You are insecure about being introverted, failure with girls, socially awkward.
You do not respect yourself because you cant muster the balls to take a step in the right direction to correct these deficiencies. By asking a girl out you are doing something to improve yourself and you will gain your own respect.

also:
if your hairstyle sucks go improve it, if you have no sense of style, go learn about it. If your fat/scrawny go to the gym. improving your looks will massively boost your inner game / confidence.

ask yourself, WHY do you not respect yourself. Get the answer and DO something about it.

 

[MrJibbles]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your input. I will admit that I have fallen behind on practicing music for the past few months. Focusing on this should hopefully keep my mind of things and help me build a better self-image.

This being said, I can't help but feel that at my very core, my personality is very unattractive and has been the number one factor in my failure with women. When I say that I am introverted, I genuinely mean this. I don't really consider myself "shy" anymore... in fact, I recently started a job in sales, which I believe will force me to break out of my shell more. I was persistent in trying to get this job, going through three interviews and following up by phone five times to get the job. To become more extroverted was the main reason I wanted this job.

I'm naturally really quiet around my coworkers though. This is not because I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing, but just because my mind feels so saturated by everybody talking around me. People will banter about anything; I rarely have anything to say. I greet my coworkers and make small talk in the lounge on breaks, but I feel I suck out the energy of everyone around me. I have nothing to offer to conversations. I am not witty. I never make interesting comments.

I have been like this for years and years. It's one thing to ask a girl out. I will admit that it is a skill that can be mastered. However, keeping a good conversation, entertaining a girl, making her laugh is just about impossible for me. I lack charm.

In that sense, how can self-respect be achieved when it is based on who I AM (in other words, my temperament and personality) rather that what I have done?

 

[lolwut]

I have been like this for years and years. It's one thing to ask a girl out. I will admit that it is a skill that can be mastered. However, keeping a good conversation, entertaining a girl, making her laugh is just about impossible for me. I lack charm.

In that sense, how can self-respect be achieved when it is based on who I AM (in other words, my temperament and personality) rather that what I have done?

I thought it was really hard to maintain a convo with women too... then i read the article about being a listener.

If you have nothing interesting to say, dont. Ask other people about their opinions. Ask them how their day was etc. ask them to talk about themselves. Women will go on and on about themselves if you let them. Saving you the trouble to have to find something to talk about. And in the end she will actually find you charming because you listened to her.

if a girl refuses to talk about herself when you ask her, by only giving u 1 word answers, that means she doesn't like you so just move on.
even if the girl is really shy, if you take the initiative and ask her, she will still talk.

its so ****ing easy it's ridiculous.

it's like the very 1st article on SS main page. just read it lol.

 

[JonJaper]

Good thread, I feel I can really relate to this, especially as I'm starting my self-improvement journey.

 

[Rubato]

This being said, I can't help but feel that at my very core, my personality is very unattractive and has been the number one factor in my failure with women. When I say that I am introverted, I genuinely mean this. I don't really consider myself "shy" anymore... in fact, I recently started a job in sales, which I believe will force me to break out of my shell more. I was persistent in trying to get this job, going through three interviews and following up by phone five times to get the job. To become more extroverted was the main reason I wanted this job.

That's good and this was an absolutely brilliant idea. You will be reaping the rewards from this decision for a long time if you keep up with it! That being said, you keep making a presupposition that is going to kill your chances at success. There are 2 errors:

First, it does not follow that in order to respect oneself, you should first be good with women.

Second, it does not follow that in order to be good with women, you must be extroverted.

What you really need to do is go to the bottom of this page, click on the link that says DJ Bible and read The Book of Pook. Now, I realize to a thinking man that anything called Pook written by a guy who goes by the name of Pook sounds like pure and utter nonsense. But I can say with 100% conviction that it is one of the greatest things I've ever read. Also read the DJ Bible if you have not, but read Pook first.

Being introverted, believe it or not, can actually work to your favor in attracting women. While all of these other extroverted guys spend all this time boring women to death with their extroverted conversation about stuff that naturally puts a woman to sleep, you will probably not do this. You will probably not tell a woman your whole life's story on the first date. You will probably not be much better at qualifying the woman because you will be less interested in what it is that you have to say. You will also be infinitely more mysterious than these other men.

Consider the great men of film lore who were excellent with women, going back to Marlon Brando all the way to Peirce Bronsan. Were either of them motor mouths and constantly going around in a state of extroverted bliss? They were extremely comfortable with themselves and had no problem seeking after what it was they wanted. But they were also very reserved men, in general, and only spoke when it was necessary to do so. They realized their words were valuable, and rather than be found guilty of acting as a verbal slut, simply speaking at end with no regard for the potential quality of what they could be saying, they kept their storehouse of verbosity under strong lock and key and only let it out in bits and pieces. This is much more powerful.

I'm naturally really quiet around my coworkers though. This is not because I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing, but just because my mind feels so saturated by everybody talking around me. People will banter about anything; I rarely have anything to say. I greet my coworkers and make small talk in the lounge on breaks, but I feel I suck out the energy of everyone around me. I have nothing to offer to conversations. I am not witty. I never make interesting comments.

I have been like this for years and years. It's one thing to ask a girl out. I will admit that it is a skill that can be mastered. However, keeping a good conversation, entertaining a girl, making her laugh is just about impossible for me. I lack charm.

You have just acknowledged that successfully convincing a woman to spend time with you somewhere is a skill that can be mastered, but are still not able to bring yourself to believe that wielding language as a scalpel rather than a sword is also not a skill to be cultivated? Read man. And I'm not necessarily talking about self help books or PUA crap, I'm talking about literature! You said you're an academic sort of guy. Reading classic literature was one of the best things I ever did for my writing, and at least for me, the better writer I am, the better linguist I am. I go to a tough school and after 4 years of majoring in political science and minoring in history, the lowest grade I ever got on any paper was an 88%, ONCE. The rest were all A's. I attribute this to reading.

One very important way to develop a new skill is something you may not be aware that you know, but you already do. When you wanted to learn music, you didn't start by practicing stuff you had made yourself... you practiced something someone else made (ie, you modeled someone else). And the same with your academics. When you studied chemistry (or whatever else you studied), the first thing you did was probably not go out and discover chemistry for yourself. Instead, you studied what someone else had already discovered. In both cases, you modeled someone else who was already successful with what you wanted to do.

We are getting more specific with your problem now. The problem is not so much that you are shy, introverted, or bad with women. The problem now is that you feel like you are a poor conversationalist. You will find that if you truly participate in self introspection, you will assess your problems only to realize that they are only symptoms of much more specific problems. And it is only through getting as specific as possible that you can really affect change. Once you are as specific as you can be, start there and work backwards, continuing up each subsequent level.

So how do you become a better conversationalist/wordsmith? Read books by people who are good at this. Watch people on TV who are good at this. Make it a point to spend time with people who are good at this. Model the behavior or skill you wish to incorporate in to yourself. And above all PRACTICE it! There will come a point if you do all of this where you will see it starting to become a part of who you are. This probably happened with music. You had modeled enough people and practiced their stuff until you were sufficiently good enough to begin writing YOUR OWN music. And this is where you develop your own personal style in conversation. You can't get to that level though without first modeling.

So go find a good book to read. You're a smart dude, so you probably already have a good sense of what it is you would like to read. I am a big Alexander Dumas fan (The Counte of Monte Cristo is my all time favorite book) but there are many other fine writers, from Tolstoy, Shakespeare, ****ens, Twain, on and on and on. I feel very sorry for people who do not read because they are depriving themselves of a vast sea of new ideas and sources of inspiration.

Above all, to quote the essence of Shakespeare:

Find something that suits YOUR style (to thine own self be true)

In that sense, how can self-respect be achieved when it is based on who I AM (in other words, my temperament and personality) rather that what I have done?

You have a big limiting belief that you keep trying to justify... that for some reason it will be impossible for you to respect yourself. As you begin reading Pook, you will discover that a man should be able to respect himself without even having consideration of a woman. It sounds to me like you have an ideal about women that I am very familiar with, that is ultimately sabotaging your ability to respect yourself.

Ie, that you have to have a woman. You don't. You suck with them. Therefore it is unlikely you will be able to get a woman, or at least a woman you feel you deserve/would be attracted to. Thus, how can you possibly respect yourself?

You need to learn how to respect yourself without a woman. If you cannot respect yourself without a woman, you will never be able to respect yourself with a woman. And a woman will never respect a man who cannot respect himself.

For a more detailed description of all of this, I will defer to Pook. Begin reading it now.

 

[Aaron B]

I'm a firm believer that women decide how to feel about you based on how you feel about yourself

 

[MrJibbles]

You need to learn how to respect yourself without a woman. If you cannot respect yourself without a woman, you will never be able to respect yourself with a woman. And a woman will never respect a man who cannot respect himself.

For a more detailed description of all of this, I will defer to Pook. Begin reading it now.

Pook: "Extroverted Nice Guys have more success than Introverted Don Juans."
I have read most of the Book of Pook and although there are very good tips in there and the DJ Bible, all this PUA material applies to those who are already physiologically extroverted.

I would love to be able to respect myself, but I feel that at least SOME level of external validation and positive reinforcement is necessary for it to be so. My inhibited personality has prevented me from achieving a desirable social life and success with women. The negative reinforcement from my failure to connect with girls has eventually reached the point that they outweigh the positive reinforcement from my limited success. It is one thing to say "Hey, f*** what others think... I love and respect myself!" over and over again, but another thing to actually FEEL this way. There is no magical switch to kill desperation like that. The desperation stems from this lack of girls and is very real.

Sexual satisfaction, companionship, and intimacy with the opposite are innate needs, and they have not been met for me. I don't "need" a woman for pure survival, but it is an instinctual drive and in that sense a "need." I crave intimacy and admittedly have been psychologically-bogged down by the severe lack of intimacy.

How can I respect, admire, or hold myself in high regard, when the most unfulfilled part of my life is unsatisfied? Reading lots of literature and getting good marks will help me respect myself in those fields alone. Being a connosieur of the arts has nothing to do with flirting, attracting, and seducing a girl as a SKILL alone. Even if am a spiritually-enlightened, well-read, physically-fit, A-student, at the end of the day I still have not gotten laid.

Most girls have been turned off by my quiet, inhibited nature and stop talking to me soon after we meet. Success has been so limited for me. How can I TRULY admire/respect myself when the way my mind has reinforced my failures and perception of myself counteract this?

 

[lolwut]

Pook: "Extroverted Nice Guys have more success than Introverted Don Juans."
I have read most of the Book of Pook and although there are very good tips in there and the DJ Bible, all this PUA material applies to those who are already physiologically extroverted.

I would love to be able to respect myself, but I feel that at least SOME level of external validation and positive reinforcement is necessary for it to be so. My inhibited personality has prevented me from achieving a desirable social life and success with women. The negative reinforcement from my failure to connect with girls has eventually reached the point that they outweigh the positive reinforcement from my limited success. It is one thing to say "Hey, f*** what others think... I love and respect myself!" over and over again, but another thing to actually FEEL this way. There is no magical switch to kill desperation like that. The desperation stems from this lack of girls and is very real.

Sexual satisfaction, companionship, and intimacy with the opposite are innate needs, and they have not been met for me. I don't "need" a woman for pure survival, but it is an instinctual drive and in that sense a "need." I crave intimacy and admittedly have been psychologically-bogged down by the severe lack of intimacy.

How can I respect, admire, or hold myself in high regard, when the most unfulfilled part of my life is unsatisfied? Reading lots of literature and getting good marks will help me respect myself in those fields alone. Being a connosieur of the arts has nothing to do with flirting, attracting, and seducing a girl as a SKILL alone. Even if am a spiritually-enlightened, well-read, physically-fit, A-student, at the end of the day I still have not gotten laid.

Most girls have been turned off by my quiet, inhibited nature and stop talking to me soon after we meet. Success has been so limited for me. How can I TRULY admire/respect myself when the way my mind has reinforced my failures and perception of myself counteract this?

while sometimes you feel true confidence and self respect can only come from external validation from women - trust me i've been there... and still mostly there lol.

but there are many things you can do to contribute to your confidence and also your chances of OBTAINING external validation. its called self improvement, which is what this site is all about.

if you feel that your failures with women have completely destroyed your confidence, then start by improving other things...like your LOOKS. Get a better sense of style, buy the right clothing, cologne, make your hair better, WORKOUT. Save up some money and buy some expensive accessories that stand out, ie. watch/belt. Maybe even a luxury car... it all helps.

If you still can't talk to women, then start by talking to other guys - strangers, and strike up some conversations. Or lower your standards... talk to UGs instead, just for practice.

Your failures with women may not simply due to your lack of socials skills, it could be your looks, your posture, the way you dress, your hygiene etc etc.

anything you do to improve yourself WILL contribute to your confidence and self respect.

 

[YouKnowI'mRight]

At the most basic level, can self-esteem really change? A bunch of accomplishments can make you feel good about yourself temporarily, but will they affect how you genuinely value yourself at the core? In other words, is an authentic, pure inner game (pure self-esteem) possible at all?

It's absolutely possible. And, as a matter of fact, there isn't any limit to how much self-esteem you can build. "Pure" isn't a description I would use with self-esteem...that assumes that there is a limit and there isn't.

PROTECTING self-esteem is actually the primary issue. If your self-esteem is leaking out of your (psychological) boundary like your boundary is a sieve, then no matter how much you build, it could easily leak away. This was known at least since written language was invented, Socrates talked about it.

I cannot overemphasize the fact that you can build as much lasting self-esteem as you choose to.

People who have built up huge amounts of self-esteem are easy to spot, they can have LOTS of "crappy" stuff (from other people's perspectives...the enlightened see it as "variance") happen and they'll weather it out without being whiny, biatchy, or complaining. In fact, women are naturally attracted to guys who are building huge amounts of self-esteem because they have so much they can spread it around without a care or suffering.

Those who don't bother to build lots of self-esteem and/or protect it turn most women off because they'll leech self-esteem from others....it's a big drain for a woman to be around a guy who's whiny, biatchy, non-motivated, etc....

You can feel as good as you want to, it just takes time and since there aren't immediate rewards for it, it can take quite some effort to get it going. Once you do though, it will start accelerating as long as you keep making effort to build it and protect it in better and better ways.

I'm a firm believer that women decide how to feel about you based on how you feel about yourself

True, except for the "decide" part. They do not decide how to feel about you, it just happens. The decision part is if they blatantly let you know or not. When you have lots and lots of self-esteem to spare, they're going to like you unless you're dealing with a total sociopath and then it's like Gollum with the rope, "it burns, it burns!" and all that.

 

[Mr. Fantastic]

Although I had formed an identity for myself as a musician and diligent student and therefore developed aspects of inner game, my self-respect remained low.

Aristotle once said that habit is all. Show me your habits and I will show you who you are. If you aren't happy with being a musician and a "diligent student" then why betray your soul and try to be something you are not? The key is to change your habits and be true to yourself. Don't play the piano for your parents, women, or your friends, but rather play the piano because you enjoy it. You will find out if you are a musician when you play for yourself, because you will either become animated and happy playing the piano or you will be miserable.

The root of self-respect is the following of your soul, or your passion in life which will naturally make you happy. For example, if, let's say, a soldier tries to live the life of a poet he will be miserable and hate himself for it. Through his consistent effort he may even become a good poet, but will he be happy? Or will he hate himself for trying to be something he is not? Another example would be the female trying to be a male (the feminist) or the male trying to be a female (the wimp). Have you ever met a happy feminist or wimp? More than likely not.

You will know what your passion is because when doing it you will become 'more animated'. For example a mathematician will light up when doing math and become more energetic (yes I've seen this happen). This is different from someone who just likes math because the mathematician gets lost in his work like a child in absorbed in a story. You can also fool yourself into the illusion of happiness, but you can't fool yourself into becoming naturally animated (We've all met the people who fake animation, you can tell they hate their lives). Follow your soul, and you will naturally respect yourself.

I look at my dad and realize my self-esteem is the same as his. He is a successful doctor and bases his entire identity on this. When I asked him what he plans to do when he retires, he cantankerously told me "become an alcoholic." The stifled, emotionally-blunted relationship between him and my mom reinforces this notion for me.

Most people's problem is they are addicted to status. Instead of doing something they enjoy, they do what will get them more respect in other peoples eyes. They sell themselves out for an image. They must give other people the illusion that they are living the 'grand lifestyle' instead of living out their dreams. They seek admirers not friends, but what they don't realize is that they could get hit by a bus and no one would care. Because everyone else is worried about themselves and what YOU think of them.

More than likely your dad went for the status of doctor rather than actually desiring to be a doctor which is causing him agony in his soul. He more than likely did it because other wanted him to, and lost all sense of self, which is probably why he wants to drink himself to death.

It all comes down to this, "Live your dreams, or live some one elses"